Australian Army Discussions and Updates

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
To partly address the high attrition portion of the article, should the ADF have its own version of the Boneyard?
Should vehicles and weapons being replaced (Auslav, M113 etc) not be sold but be sent to a boneyard and maintained enough to prevent deterioration?
To follow the U S example, somewhere in the desert. Outside of Alice Springs connected to the rail line might work.

I understand that some M113s have been held in storage, but I'm suggesting a more systematic approach.
Gets discussed here about every second week. With the same objections, that obsolescence of their parts and systems means that any item returned to service would need parts sourced from other boneyard residents, that suitable crews woud need holding in storage as well, and the corporate knowledge of how to fight/fly them will be decaying as old soldiers leave and new ones have no clue about old equipment

Great for the Yanks. Literally thousand of junkyard spares donors to repair fewer and fewer current assets where the knowledge base still exists). Not so great unless you have enough for both, and we know that just isn't so

oldsig
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
2 Division stands up as Command
So what is being achieved here?
Anyone with analysis or a reference for the establishment of 2nd Div. as a command? What benefits will this bring?

My first impression upon reading this was a siloing off of the division off rather than having it as a integrated part of the previous command structure.

Does this signal any intent to have a divisional level deployment capability?
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
2 Division stands up as Command
So what is being achieved here?
Anyone with analysis or a reference for the establishment of 2nd Div. as a command? What benefits will this bring?

My first impression upon reading this was a siloing off of the division off rather than having it as a integrated part of the previous command structure.

Does this signal any intent to have a divisional level deployment capability?
2 Division was traditionally the Reserves, it would take the entire Australian Army including mobilised reserves to deploy even a small Motorised Division of 12,000.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
2 Division stands up as Command
So what is being achieved here?
Anyone with analysis or a reference for the establishment of 2nd Div. as a command? What benefits will this bring?
Perhaps given that the public thinks that the ADF is primarily a Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief organisation it separates the entire structure to focus more strongly on HADR (2Div) and on Warfare. (1Div)?

oldsig
 

Massive

Active Member
Perhaps given that the public thinks that the ADF is primarily a Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief organisation it separates the entire structure to focus more strongly on HADR (2Div) and on Warfare. (1Div)?
Such a waste of military training.

Surely if a HADR organisation is required then that is what should be stood up. An NES to go with the SES makes much more sense to me.

Regards,

Massive
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Such a waste of military training.

Surely if a HADR organisation is required then that is what should be stood up. An NES to go with the SES makes much more sense to me.

Regards,

Massive
Surely you understand the term "realpolitic"

You do what is necessary, not necessarily what is best, or what you want.

oldsig
 

OldTex

Active Member
Perhaps given that the public thinks that the ADF is primarily a Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief organisation it separates the entire structure to focus more strongly on HADR (2Div) and on Warfare. (1Div)?

oldsig
In the United Service journal (RUSI of NSW) Volume 72 Number 4 of December 2021 MAJGEN David Thomae, AM had this to say regarding 2Div's role(s):
"The 2ndDivision’s focus in the immediate past has been to support the Army’s force generation cycle by the raising, training and sustaining a Reinforcing Battle Group to support the full-time Ready Brigade, thereby maintaining the Division’s foundation war-fighting skills at unit level for security operations. This has been an important role for the 2ndDivision and has allowed it to modernise and build capacity in conventional war-fighting skills alongside the Army’s combat brigades."

He also stated:
"Chief of Army has directed that the role of the 2ndDivision pivot to having primary responsibility for Army's contribution to domestic disaster relief and domestic security support tasks. The stated mission of the 2nd Division to meet this new role is: 'to generate land capabilities for the Joint Force and to command assigned contingency response forces in order to meet directed domestic operational requirements'. "

Perhaps this shift of command from FORCOMD to CA is more about relieving the ARA of the expectation to provide DACC/DACA in domestic contingency situations. In light of this change of command it is difficult to see how the suggested integration of 9 BDE and elements of 1 BDE located in Adelaide could be made to work effectively.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In the United Service journal (RUSI of NSW) Volume 72 Number 4 of December 2021 MAJGEN David Thomae, AM had this to say regarding 2Div's role(s):
"The 2ndDivision’s focus in the immediate past has been to support the Army’s force generation cycle by the raising, training and sustaining a Reinforcing Battle Group to support the full-time Ready Brigade, thereby maintaining the Division’s foundation war-fighting skills at unit level for security operations. This has been an important role for the 2ndDivision and has allowed it to modernise and build capacity in conventional war-fighting skills alongside the Army’s combat brigades."

He also stated:
"Chief of Army has directed that the role of the 2ndDivision pivot to having primary responsibility for Army's contribution to domestic disaster relief and domestic security support tasks. The stated mission of the 2nd Division to meet this new role is: 'to generate land capabilities for the Joint Force and to command assigned contingency response forces in order to meet directed domestic operational requirements'. "

Perhaps this shift of command from FORCOMD to CA is more about relieving the ARA of the expectation to provide DACC/DACA in domestic contingency situations. In light of this change of command it is difficult to see how the suggested integration of 9 BDE and elements of 1 BDE located in Adelaide could be made to work effectively.
9 Brigade, moving to Forces Command is how.

;)
 

OldTex

Active Member
9 Brigade, moving to Forces Command is how.

;)
Which would mean that the majority of the reservists in SA would no longer be under the command of 2DIV to respond to domestic disaster relief and domestic security support tasks, as directed by CA. Yes they could be assigned by FORCOMD to 2DIV for the duration of the domestic task, but the change in the C2 chains will mean that the response in SA will potentially be not as effective or efficient as in other states.
 

Massive

Active Member
Yes changes to future doctrine will need to be made, but they seem to suggest that the military should just give up on rotary wing aviation altogether.
I was more thinking along the lines of a shifting balance such as less helicopter attack (Apache) & assault (e.g. Blackhawk), and more lift (Chinook) or similar.

Will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

Regards,

Massive
 

Lolcake

Member
Planning for AS-9 is up to 60 guns and HIMARS at 20 launchers is only an initial tranche, to provide a single operational battery, with further batteries acquired down the track. Likely to be around 24 operational launchers over time. M777A2 is also up for upgrade / replacement under a separate project.

Combined, unless numbers are changed, that represents a force of around 140x artillery pieces, which seems to me quite a lot, given the overall size of our land forces…
Just to clarify, would the aim would be to equip two batteries with HIMARS for a total of 48 operational launchers or just 24 launchers total? 48 is definately not an insignifcant number if you look at the success they are havking in ukraine with ~ 10-12 launchers on the ground at this time.

Would be curious to know how much ammunition these are expending on a typical day of operations. Definately a factor when considering such a purchase as well local production of ammo.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just to clarify, would the aim would be to equip two batteries with HIMARS for a total of 48 operational launchers or just 24 launchers total? 48 is definately not an insignifcant number if you look at the success they are havking in ukraine with ~ 10-12 launchers on the ground at this time.

Would be curious to know how much ammunition these are expending on a typical day of operations. Definately a factor when considering such a purchase as well local production of ammo.
24x operational launchers, with additional systems in training batteries and school of arty / trade training schools.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just to clarify, would the aim would be to equip two batteries with HIMARS for a total of 48 operational launchers or just 24 launchers total? 48 is definately not an insignifcant number if you look at the success they are havking in ukraine with ~ 10-12 launchers on the ground at this time.
I would be somewhat hesitant to use the Ukrainian experience as an exemplar, because of the poor Russian performance in the field. Against a modernised and technically adept PLA-GF, it could possibly be a different story. The Russian Army lacks a lot of UAV capability whereas the PLA-GF loves the things.
 

Lolcake

Member
As they should.

The ADF is clearly stepping up in this area. I will be very interested to see when the ADF acquires loitering munitions.

Regards,

Massive
The drone footage coming out of Ukraine is extremely scary. They are so tiny and hard to detect. Loitering for hours on end and directing arty and even dropping muntions and thats just the commerical ones. Stuggle to contemplate where drone tech will be in 10 years as its ever evolving. I hope we are ready for it.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
"A United States Marine Corps MV-22 Osprey from Marine Rotational Force-Darwin 22, lifts off after dropping off Australian Army soldiers from 5th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment, during an air assault as part of Exercise Koolendong 22 at Mount Bundey Training Area, Northern Territory."
Image Source : ADF Image Library
220711ran8623366_0004.jpg
 

Bob53

Active Member
The drone footage coming out of Ukraine is extremely scary. They are so tiny and hard to detect. Loitering for hours on end and directing arty and even dropping muntions and thats just the commerical ones. Stuggle to contemplate where drone tech will be in 10 years as its ever evolving. I hope we are ready for it.
It’s not just that loitering munitions are a reality, it’s that they will become more and more dangerous with advanced AI.

There will be a point in time (and not too far away) that with the right weapons, AI will take over a significant portion of the battlefield planning and target recognition acquisition and assignment. AI fusing sensor data from multiple sources and collating unbelievable volumes of dara to build a very real picture in real time will allow targeting decisions to be made in seconds.

this article is a few years old now but gives a good summary of where things are heading.

The Chinese are world leaders in this space.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It’s not just that loitering munitions are a reality, it’s that they will become more and more dangerous with advanced AI.

There will be a point in time (and not too far away) that with the right weapons, AI will take over a significant portion of the battlefield planning and target recognition acquisition and assignment. AI fusing sensor data from multiple sources and collating unbelievable volumes of dara to build a very real picture in real time will allow targeting decisions to be made in seconds.

this article is a few years old now but gives a good summary of where things are heading.

The Chinese are world leaders in this space.
The Federal News Network. Isn't that the outfit that keeps saying that service leads to citizenship?
 
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