Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

I see that the USMC have put in an additional order for more Amphibious Combat Vehicles(26) for $113.5mil USD, I wonder if it would be worth the ADF's time to get a couple of troops worth to trial from the LHD. if not hand them over to the USMC as a gift

US Marines Orders Amphibious Combat Vehicles from BAE Systems | DefenceTalk

BAE Systems has received a $113.5 million contract from the U.S. Marine Corps for an additional 26 Amphibious Combat Vehicles (ACV) under the Low-Rate Initial Production (LRIP) phase of the program. This award brings the total vehicle orders for the ACV to 116, and moves the program closer to...

www.defencetalk.com

Would it not be better to wait until the USMC have the ACV fully bedded in and all the problems sorted before even thinking about looking at them? The ADF doesn't have an unlimited money pot and if they want to have a closer look at the vehicle they will be able to get up close and personnel during various exercises etc. I am also sure that the USMC would be more than accomodating in helping the ADF assess the vehicle if the ADF were to ask. I also think that you will find that USMC ACVs will operate off the RAN LHDs during one exercise or another anyway.

 

[John Newman]

The Holsworthy based Commando Regiment must have an exercise going on tonight.

Just had four Blackhawks go directly over me (Hornsby) heading North East towards the Northern Beaches, haven't seen them around in my part of Sydney for a while.

Last time I saw them was early last year, the Blackhawks were doing orbits over my place for most of the night (lights out except on the tail of the last one), was rather entertaining sitting on the balcony with a smoke and drink watching (good free entertainment!).

Probably not too many opportunities left to see the Blackhawks in action.

Cheers,

 

[south]

Former Australian SAS soldier Braden Chapman speaks out about unlawful killings and war crimes in Afghanistan - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

mobile.abc.net.au

Some pretty concerning allegations (and video) coming out around the investigation into ADF SF in Afghanistan. This example only detailing SAS. It is parallel to some of what has been discovered with components of US SF from a similar period.

 

[ngatimozart]

Former Australian SAS soldier Braden Chapman speaks out about unlawful killings and war crimes in Afghanistan - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

mobile.abc.net.au

Some pretty concerning allegations (and video) coming out around the investigation into ADF SF in Afghanistan. This example only detailing SAS. It is parallel to some of what has been discovered with components of US SF from a similar period.

I would treat this with a bit of caution because it may be a media beat up. I am not saying that the alleged incidences did not occur, but I am saying that the media has its own agenda.

One thing I will state plainly is that the culture of the ADF & NZDF are different to that of the US military and that is a reflection of the societies from which they come. Actions and cultures that are tolerated within the US military are not tolerated within the ADF or NZDF.

 

[south]

I would treat this with a bit of caution because it may be a media beat up. I am not saying that the alleged incidences did not occur, but I am saying that the media has its own agenda.

One thing I will state plainly is that the culture of the ADF & NZDF are different to that of the US military and that is a reflection of the societies from which they come. Actions and cultures that are tolerated within the US military are not tolerated within the ADF or NZDF.

I agree, re the media and agendas. However even if this event is isolated, it’s still disturbing to think that even one event like this video (embedded in the link) would take place. I’ll note that the IGADF investigation has been long running, since 2016. I’m sure it will be thorough and will be interested to see the findings.

Inquiry probing 55 matters relating to special forces’ alleged misconduct in Afghanistan

On Tuesday, the Inspector-General of the Australian Defence Force tabled a report, detailing an inquiry into 55 separate incidents, dealing predominantly with the killing of “non-combatants”

www.google.com.au

All I’ll highlight is that it was a thread amongst the US SOF investigations that elite, mission focussed, high tempo unit employed with a veil of secrecy and limited external supervision for long periods of time have experienced varying levels of ‘normalisation of deviance’. We would be naive to believe that there are not similar pressures within aspects of the ADF.

How to Fix U.S. Special Operations Forces - War on the Rocks

The wars of 9/11 have taken a significant toll on the U.S. military, but special operations forces have arguably shouldered this burden most deeply. For

warontherocks.com

 

[SteveR]

And of course most will recall the scene from Saving Private Ryan where having scaled the cliffs at Normandy at significant cost, and having surrounded the German gun emplacement, the US troops with their Sergeant see the drafted Czech soldiers stumbling out with hands up. He mockingly says he cannot understand them before killing them with a burst of his sub-machine gun. As far as the film goes he was never charged with any crime. We still celebrate that group as the Great Generation!

 

[old faithful]

As I was directly involved in the 4 corners Don Dale debacle, I can say 100per cent that 4 corners will edit interviews, footage and anything else they can to sensationalize any perspective they can. I was involved in a surpreme court case and the children's commission, and found I had nothing to answer. The problem is the damage done by the media. We now have out of control child crime in the NT. Other states also suffer as a direct result of the irresponsible report by 4 corners, including Victoria, Qld and WA . The fall out is huge.
As for the SAS incident, we are not privy to events before, not privvy to intell on the man.
Was Osama Bin Laden murdered to? State sanctioned home invasion.
How about Gaddafi?
How about that last bloke in Iran?
I believe he was hit by a missile while driving in a car, was he a direct threat to anyone?
It's war. People are killed in wars.

 

[Volkodav]

My take on it is listen to Andrew Hastie, ex SAS, current liberal government member, definately no axe to grind or agenda to serve. I get the distinct impression that had that been one of his blokes and he found out about it, he would have been on the first flight home and would currently be in either a prison or mental institution.

 

[ngatimozart]

As I was directly involved in the 4 corners Don Dale debacle, I can say 100per cent that 4 corners will edit interviews, footage and anything else they can to sensationalize any perspective they can. I was involved in a surpreme court case and the children's commission, and found I had nothing to answer. The problem is the damage done by the media. We now have out of control child crime in the NT. Other states also suffer as a direct result of the irresponsible report by 4 corners, including Victoria, Qld and WA . The fall out is huge.
As for the SAS incident, we are not privy to events before, not privvy to intell on the man.
Was Osama Bin Laden murdered to? State sanctioned home invasion.
How about Gaddafi?
How about that last bloke in Iran?
I believe he was hit by a missile while driving in a car, was he a direct threat to anyone?
It's war. People are killed in wars.

People are killed in wars definitely and unfortunately in some cases some of them are non combatants. However the civilians sitting at home in front of a computer, watching on the TV, sitting behind a desk etc., don't understand that and don't comprehend that it's not tidy, neat and clearly delineated as in the movies or the video games. Mistakes are made and unfortunately some mistakes have fatal consequences, but you cannot sit in your comfy office or lounge and complain, go on a witch hunt etc., if you haven't been there and experienced it for yourself - the whole bloody lot.

 

[John Fedup]

As I was directly involved in the 4 corners Don Dale debacle, I can say 100per cent that 4 corners will edit interviews, footage and anything else they can to sensationalize any perspective they can. I was involved in a surpreme court case and the children's commission, and found I had nothing to answer. The problem is the damage done by the media. We now have out of control child crime in the NT. Other states also suffer as a direct result of the irresponsible report by 4 corners, including Victoria, Qld and WA . The fall out is huge.
As for the SAS incident, we are not privy to events before, not privvy to intell on the man.
Was Osama Bin Laden murdered to? State sanctioned home invasion.
How about Gaddafi?
How about that last bloke in Iran?
I believe he was hit by a missile while driving in a car, was he a direct threat to anyone?
It's war. People are killed in wars.

I believe the Iranian general was killed in Iraq, not Iran. As for being a threat, he had a proven record of being exactly that.

 

[Takao]

The media has its agenda - but at this point, unless Soldier C has some significant evidence otherwise, he is a stain on my uniform and he can **** right off. And all the people who investigated and cleared this can be faced with the same choice - cough up substantive evidence he was a threat or walk, preferably into a cell.

You don't ask three times if you want someone killed if they are a threat.

There will be uniformed members who think that was ok - find them and they can leave too. Not one uniformed member I work with thinks that. The common view is that's a murder. And it was bloody tough explaining to the APS we work with how Soldier C is still serving...

 

[south]

The media has its agenda - but at this point, unless Soldier C has some significant evidence otherwise, he is a stain on my uniform and he can **** right off. And all the people who investigated and cleared this can be faced with the same choice - cough up substantive evidence he was a threat or walk, preferably into a cell.

You don't ask three times if you want someone killed if they are a threat.

There will be uniformed members who think that was ok - find them and they can leave too. Not one uniformed member I work with thinks that. The common view is that's a murder. And it was bloody tough explaining to the APS we work with how Soldier C is still serving...

Amen.

People are killed in wars definitely and unfortunately in some cases some of them are non combatants. However the civilians sitting at home in front of a computer, watching on the TV, sitting behind a desk etc., don't understand that and don't comprehend that it's not tidy, neat and clearly delineated as in the movies or the video games. Mistakes are made and unfortunately some mistakes have fatal consequences, but you cannot sit in your comfy office or lounge and complain, go on a witch hunt etc., if you haven't been there and experienced it for yourself - the whole bloody lot.

Mistakes are made. But that video, and the other claims, are deeply disturbing. There is a significant difference between a mistake, and what the video showed.

 

[Volkodav]

The media has its agenda - but at this point, unless Soldier C has some significant evidence otherwise, he is a stain on my uniform and he can **** right off. And all the people who investigated and cleared this can be faced with the same choice - cough up substantive evidence he was a threat or walk, preferably into a cell.

You don't ask three times if you want someone killed if they are a threat.

There will be uniformed members who think that was ok - find them and they can leave too. Not one uniformed member I work with thinks that. The common view is that's a murder. And it was bloody tough explaining to the APS we work with how Soldier C is still serving...

There are bad eggs who slip through in every organisation, and there are people who change, or even completely lose it as well. Stuff like this happens but it is the response of the organisation when it happens that counts, coverups damage the reputation and moral of those who did nothing wrong, they are probably more damaging than coming clean and responding appropriately in the first place.

What does a good cop hate most, a corrupt cop, because it makes them look bad, makes their job harder, and can even place them at risk. Same applied to the ADF.

 

[old faithful]

I believe the Iranian general was killed in Iraq, not Iran. As for being a threat, he had a proven record of being exactly that.

Yep.
The bloke in the wheat field on the 4 corners show.
What do we know about him?
Was he a target?
He had a phone. Was he a key figure in that area?
What's the difference between a summery killing, execution like that, and a cross border execution in someones home?
Any way, my point is don't judge a man because of a tv show. We don't know the whole story, I suspect Mr Hastie does not even know the whole story.
Don't condemn anyone because of the media, let the courts do that.
Cricket, what about a poor F18 pilot dropping a 2000lb bomb on a wrong target?

 

[old faithful]

Execution or assassination.
One is acceptable, one is not. Both are murder. If the murder is sanctioned by the state, the killer is a hero. If one is not sanctioned by the state, at least officially, then he is a war criminal.
We don't even know his mission statement, yet people are quick to call him out as a murderer.

 

[swerve]

The media has its agenda - but at this point, unless Soldier C has some significant evidence otherwise, he is a stain on my uniform and he can **** right off. ...

And counter-productive. A recruiting sergeant for the Taliban. The man he killed might have had a relative in the Afghan army or police, & one day he turns against the nearest foreign soldiers . . . .

 

[Volkodav]

And counter-productive. A recruiting sergeant for the Taliban. The man he killed might have had a relative in the Afghan army or police, & one day he turns against the nearest foreign soldiers . . . .

Exactly, his actions put his mates at risk. You wear a uniform, what you do reflects glory and shame on all others wearing the same uniform.

 

[old faithful]

Again you lot make too many assumptions.
It was SAS. They don't do basic infantry work You don't know enough about the situation. Too many what ifs. I give examples. What were they going to do after the wheat field? Could they afford to lose a team to look after the man? Could they afford to let him him go, and compromise an important mission?
SAS as we know sometimes have to kill people that pose no physical threat in order to achieve a mission. I'm sure most have heard about a team In an OP compromised by a goat herder. They killed the herder and continued the OP.(UK SAS I believe)
There are just too many unknowns to judge the bloke
Yes it probably was murder, sometimes in war, murder is justiciable. That is for the courts to decide.

 

[Volkodav]

Again you lot make too many assumptions.
It was SAS. They don't do basic infantry work You don't know enough about the situation. Too many what ifs. I give examples. What were they going to do after the wheat field? Could they afford to lose a team to look after the man? Could they afford to let him him go, and compromise an important mission?
SAS as we know sometimes have to kill people that pose no physical threat in order to achieve a mission. I'm sure most have heard about a team In an OP compromised by a goat herder. They killed the herder and continued the OP.(UK SAS I believe)
There are just too many unknowns to judge the bloke
Yes it probably was murder, sometimes in war, murder is justiciable. That is for the courts to decide.

They are human too. They make mistakes, they have mental health issues, some of them are even criminally inclined. Just because they are in the SAS doesn't mean they are never wrong, never stuff up or never do the wrong thing. What it does mean is they are held to a higher standard, and if they fail at meeting that standard they are not just letting themselves down, but all their mates as well.

When someone goes above an beyond should they be dragged down and assumed to be a murdering thug because another member of their unit does the wrong thing? Should genuine heroes and veterans who did their duty at great personal risk and even loss, be judged because another veteran did the wrong thing? No way but when the system is seen to be covering up crimes and protecting the bad eggs, it tars them all with the same brush, when people assume it was a justified killing and make excuses it tars them all with the same brush.

When bad things happen there needs to be accountability, its as simple as that.

 

[old faithful]

If he has done the wrong thing it is for the COURTS to decide, not 4 corners, not politicians, not people on social media.
Peace out