Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Takao

The Bunker Group
G'day Takao - quick question. Is this an Army cultural aspect? You have alluded on a number of occasions to Army underestimating the complexity of tiger (and probably to a similar extent MRH-90); however one look at the cockpit and spec sheet and you can tell that it is a completely different beast to a UH-1 Bushranger / Kiowa. Why was there such an issue on the maintenance side?
I think there were two main reasons, blindness and ignorance.

Taking the first one - a lot of faith was placed on the ability for the new digital airframe to self-diagnose. In the late 90s / early 00s the 'silver bullet' was smart aircraft that could fight and diagnose without humans. It wasn't just Airbus - all the companies were (and, from what I can tell) and are still doing it. If a jet came back broke, all you had to do was download the data (off the DID-L for Tiger) and go to that page in the maintenance manual. Because of that, all we needed were tradies that could follow instructions. No need for troubleshooting or mechanical knowledge. So, we got rid of a bunch of that training - most notably on Subject 4 for CPL.

The reality was much more complex. For starters, the maintenance manual was nowhere near complete. It wasn't a translation issue (our FSR could access the French manuals), it was just non-existent. So where the DID-L gave a code - sometimes that didn't exist. We could work our way around it because of our older SGT / WO2 with troubleshooting experience in the Regt and the CAPT / MAJ in the SPO with similar experience. Sometimes the DID-L didn't record faults (especially mechanical - if a panel or blade was damaged there was no way to register. Finally, the DID-L is a software system, so it too is susceptible to faults. So what do you do to a system wide error in that also impacts the DID-L?

An example of a major problem here was rotor balancing. Tiger is so easy to do it (even more so than Black Hawk - and that was an order of magnitude better than Huey or Kiowa) - but our junior soldiers didn't know how to do one without computer aid. I remember one incident where a (really good) CPL had his FRT trying to work out if the brokenness was in the engine or the computers. An officer suggested swapping the problem engine with another aircraft (a really easy job in Tiger with a crane), to which the CPL responded "you can do that?". Now, CPLs are the absolute hands-on tech experts. Officer's shouldn't be able to suggest new and radical ideas like that though!

We did identify this shortage - and by 2009 had revamped all the RAMS training - especially the CPL and SGT one. Unfortunately, there was a generation of JNCO that came through where they were seriously underdone. We were lucky though, we still had a smattering of really good NCOs/WOs (there had been an enormous exodus from Darwin / Army after Kiowa left), including some wearing AA uniforms that were able to do some intensive PME that covered some of that gap. Ironically, the poor maintenance manual helped, as the soldiers were forced to think on their feet.

for number two - ignorance - there was a heap. My favourite was bitching that the Tigers weren't rolled under the trees like the Kiowa's used to be (ignoring the rotor disk 50x wider or the 6x heaver weight or the 2x length). There was a belief that a new aircraft (see above as to why) needed less people, so the maintenance workforce was cut by about 1/3 - and avionics techs more so. It took nearly a decade to convince AHQ that more maintainers were needed. Seniors got frustrated when 161 would rock up with a huge number of vehicles - ignoring that the fuel bill for the Sqn had risen by a factor of 10*** (to match a Black Hawk Sqn ironically...) and the spares were greater and larger and, it had weapons (!) - needing more transport.

Strategically, there was a belief that Army needed no representation in the SPO (leaving it all to contractors) and there was a lot of frustration about what Tiger could do, couldn't do and the like. 2/14 stirred the pot at the three-star level one exercise - claiming the aircraft was useless as it couldn't find a Regt of ASLAVs. Now I grant you - if a Tiger couldn't do that it'd be a huge problem. But when you don't move your ASLAVs all exercise (not even turn them on) and pile camo around - are you even doing your job? It tied into some unintentional ignorance where we didn't even know what we wanted. Tiger is 100% the correct answer to AIR 87 - but Army had no idea if AIR 87 was the answer. It's one of the reasons LAND 4503 is going better - we actually have a bench mark.

The amount of Tiger experts is uniform is astounding - especially considering how tight we are with CFN, aeronautical engineers and pilots.... For every Tiger expert in uniform, I'd suggest there are 2 - 3 who think they know what they are talking about (but don't). And that impacts a lot - including budgets and crewing.

Just two (quick, I promise) additional notes.
1. I don't comment on MRH as I never worked on or near them. Ironically, the only one I've seen in the flesh was an 808 Sqn bird, not a 5 Avn one! But I do know that there was a fair share of cultural issues - and some harsh perceptions about suitability.

2. These aren't specific to the aviation world. I think it's Army, because for all their pers and tech issues the RAN and RAAF acknowledge increasing complexity and changes in capability. They actively seek to reduce ignorance. Army on the other hand; look at how M1s are treated - just like trucks when in reality they are no different to a Tiger. But trying to improve the management of the fleet is like tying to teach a rock to sing. Or classics, like asking the gun of the IFV to be used in a dismounted role just like an M113's can.We claim PME, but we promote ignorance.

All up - we went from a 1967 Volkswagen Beetle to a 2008 Porsche 911. Both superficially the same - but we cut the budget and skill for maintainers, then asked the pilots to do rally, tarmac, pick up the dogs and drop the kids at soccer practice. And organisationally, we didn't listen to those on the front line when they were asked questions. It took a handful of really good O3 - O5 to push the capability in the wider Army, and some excellent E4 - O3 to fix the Regt and training system.

*** for some context, one external tank for a Black Hawk carries enough fuel for 3x Kiowa... And the internal tanks of a Black Hawk are more than 1.5x bigger.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Just had a thought in regards to ADF, in particular Army, aiding civilian authorities. I was wondering if it would be useful to re raise a Pioneer capability, i.e. units trained in both infantry and light engineering roles.

The current deployments to aid in firefighting, logistic support, route clearance, firebreak creation, evacuations etc. would be ideal for pioneers, more so than either infantry or combat engineers.

It occurs to me that deployments to Afghanistan etc. required significant engineering support for the security operations, while the reconstruction and training missions required significant security. This again seems ideal for pioneers.
I would vote no - for cultural reasons.

As it stands, infantry Bn are the only units that do not inculcate an understanding of combined arms. Everyone else gets that they need other Corps / Services; but many in RAInf do not. A large part of this is thanks to the outdated concept that a Bn needs to be self-sufficient; that Spt Coy needs to be a mini-Brigade. Pulling pioneers out was good for the Army, as it started to force RAInf to identify what it could do and what it wanted v needed. If it needs engineering support - it can ask the CER. Having seen attempts to re-raise pioneers filter with semi-regularity through AHQ, it is almost always one type of RAInf officer with one objective in mind. It also keeps the ARes in the public's mind, which will probably become more valuable in the next decade or so.

All of the light engineering you talk about already exists in our Engineering Regiments (as opposed to Combat Engineering Regiments). Which being ARes units offer increased flexibility in response and location. And, if needed, our Combat Engineers can do the job too. Think how well an Abrams-based AEV would do a firebreak....
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would vote no - for cultural reasons.

As it stands, infantry Bn are the only units that do not inculcate an understanding of combined arms. Everyone else gets that they need other Corps / Services; but many in RAInf do not. A large part of this is thanks to the outdated concept that a Bn needs to be self-sufficient; that Spt Coy needs to be a mini-Brigade. Pulling pioneers out was good for the Army, as it started to force RAInf to identify what it could do and what it wanted v needed. If it needs engineering support - it can ask the CER. Having seen attempts to re-raise pioneers filter with semi-regularity through AHQ, it is almost always one type of RAInf officer with one objective in mind. It also keeps the ARes in the public's mind, which will probably become more valuable in the next decade or so.

All of the light engineering you talk about already exists in our Engineering Regiments (as opposed to Combat Engineering Regiments). Which being ARes units offer increased flexibility in response and location. And, if needed, our Combat Engineers can do the job too. Think how well an Abrams-based AEV would do a firebreak....
I was actually thinking of it as a reserve capability.
Showing my age here but we had pioneer platoons when I was in Chockos, and I can see that CER support is better than that structure. What I was actually thinking was Pioneer Btns as a replacement for some reserve infantry. Obviously the ARES is not going to be getting about in LAND 400 vehicles, so why not look at a complementary capability they could provide to a Reg Brigade on deployment and to civil authorities on call up?

Not wedded to the idea, it just occurred to me when reading the ADF assistance to the current fire emergence posts on LinkedIn that what was being contributed reminded me more of Pioneers than Infantry or Engineers.

100% understand your reference to culture as well, the army is very tribal with junior leaders in particular being very indoctrinated and conservative verses newer members, with real world experience and older hands, who have experience major change and remember what was before and why it changed, as well as the problems with what is now the status quo.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
2. These aren't specific to the aviation world. I think it's Army, because for all their pers and tech issues the RAN and RAAF acknowledge increasing complexity and changes in capability. They actively seek to reduce ignorance. Army on the other hand; look at how M1s are treated - just like trucks when in reality they are no different to a Tiger. But trying to improve the management of the fleet is like tying to teach a rock to sing. Or classics, like asking the gun of the IFV to be used in a dismounted role just like an M113's can.We claim PME, but we promote ignorance.
Back in the early 90s I was chatting to an air REAME maintainer who had transferred from the RAAF with the Blackhawks, something we all thought was great but he had his reservations. The concerns he expressed were that the Army wanted soldiers first, techos second and that was affecting technical proficiency and competence.

The conversation came back to me a couple of years ago when a air RAEME Capt was telling me that they were soldiers first and tradies second and so long as people followed their training, read the tech pubs, SI(LOG) etc. and signed off their work all would be good. No room for initiative, in fact I was even told by another senior member that "This is the Army its not our job to tear down silos". Gut feeling what would help is if they created a way to appoint selected senior ARTs as Capts and Majors, potentially even splitting RM from TSS OC. The grey hairs on average are so much more experienced and capable than most of the officers I've met and would be able to do much more effective mentoring if they out ranked them.
 

south

Well-Known Member
Takao- thanks mate for the comprehensive reply.

The reason I asked was over the past year or so it has been alluded to there are similar problems between Tiger, Abrams, potentially MRH-90. I was wondering if a Light Infantry-centric culture was part of the issue... the soldier first/techo second thing alluded to by Volk I have certainly heard causing friction/issues in the past.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
The soldier v technician debate is always present and, for the Army, will continue to be so forever. The reality is that we deploy further forward than the RAAF or RAN technicians and hence more susceptible to ground combat. Furthermore, teams sent to recover downed helicopters run the same risks as any convoy. It is exactly the same as the RAN with fire-fighting - every sailor (and hence technician) must be able to fight a fire. It is the biggest difference between the RAAF and the Army in the aviation world. We can get away with it, because frankly helicopters are easier to maintain than jet fighters or large transports/MPAs.

The key, strangely enough, is leadership. It is up to the Tp Comd and the OC to develop both skill sets. It is possible - I've done it, some of my peers have done it and some of my superiors have done it. Many haven't though - often reverting to technician first as that's easy. But it's not the answer. I, and my soldiers, have had to strap on body armour and grab rifles to defend positions and recover helicopters for real. It is the biggest reason for keeping GSOs in those positions - they are the ones expected to mesh the two worlds. I've long said that if they can't, offer a door - but we are kinda short.... And while they are leaving, they can help anyone who shuts down initiative. Follow the manuals and SI's yes - but use your brain and if there is a better way, raise it. Again though, leadership.

As for not accepting mentor ship from a junior - sack them even quicker. I still talk to my WO2s from when I was a LT, a CAPT and a MAJ. There are lessons that two WO2 from Darwin in particular taught me more than a decade ago that I still lean on heavily. The reality is that the WO2s and SGTs are the ones who translate a LT's book learning into practical use. Like an LT - ignore them at your peril....

@south - there is a huge cultural issue in Army still thanks to light infantry. It's to be expected, that's all (bar a single Brigade) we did for 50 - 60 odd years. But, times are a changing. A hardened, networked Army needs more flexible and capable minds. There are some absolutely brilliant RAInf people - a good chunk of them in really important positions too. The introduction of LAND 400 has done a world of good already, forcing an acceptance that there is more to life than walking. Hopefully this begins permeating out into FORCOMD and much of the silliness can be reduced.
 

Navor86

Member
With current bushfires raging, do you guys reckon that the ADF will adapt to this ever more important role at home with new euqipment procurement or some changes to force structure?

Like additional helicopters be it Chinooks or MRH?
Maybe even the raising of further engineer squadrons within either the Reserves or the Regulars?


Ona side note. I once saw an article here which summarized the potentially need numbers of M1 based support vehicles like assault bridges and engineer tanks, but right now I cant find this article. Does anyone have this article by chance?
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
With current bushfires raging, do you guys reckon that the ADF will adapt to this ever more important role at home with new euqipment procurement or some changes to force structure?

Like additional helicopters be it Chinooks or MRH?
Maybe even the raising of further engineer squadrons within either the Reserves or the Regulars?


Ona side note. I once saw an article here which summarized the potentially need numbers of M1 based support vehicles like assault bridges and engineer tanks, but right now I cant find this article. Does anyone have this article by chance?
It might strengthen the case for the Pacific support ship but i suspect extra funds may go into the Emergency services more than the ADF, they are still the primary responders. 2 ex Australian Army Blackhawks are being transferred to the NSW RFS, this may be increased and extended to the other states
It is probably to early to really comment on what may happen and needs to wait to everything dies down and a post operations review takes place. All the GsOTD will need to look long and hard at how this has been handled and how it can be dealt with in the future.
 

SteveR

Active Member

Takao

The Bunker Group
I'm not sure that the need is there for additional helicopters. There is an argument that LAND 2097 should be for long-range SO helicopters instead of little things; that has a greater chance of justifying procurement than this. It actually suggests we may have enough helo's, it's unlikely we would be called on to do two simultaneous NEOs.

As for kit for the aircraft, there is a C-130 conversion kit that Twitter throws around - but the training and additional maintenance cost is pretty horrendous. And 16 Brigade hasn't used Bambi buckets since early 2000s after a commercial company complained we were taking their business. So I doubt that would stand up again (and then there is the training costs).

Fundamentally, @Redlands18 is correct that a post-op review needs to take place first. But this is arguably a tertiary or even quaternary role for the ADF.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
Here is one recent DTR article on future support vehicles - previous DTR issues have other related articles too:

https://defencetechnologyreview.par...chnology-review/dtr-dec-jan-2020/flipbook/26/
Apart from cost, was there any reason Leopard 1 based engineering vehicles were not retained?
Or to have the capacity expanded to include Badger style vehicles using a few of the now spare Leopard hulls?
Surely with the spares in stock and the hulls available for stripping a limited number of vehicles could have been kept in service for decades.
Similar to what was done by the German army.

In this way the training and doctrine would already be in place for the new M1 based versions.

Side note the next page of the DTR listed above provides a link to a good (marketing) video on stern landing vessels.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Apart from cost, was there any reason Leopard 1 based engineering vehicles were not retained?
Or to have the capacity expanded to include Badger style vehicles using a few of the now spare Leopard hulls?
Surely with the spares in stock and the hulls available for stripping a limited number of vehicles could have been kept in service for decades.
Similar to what was done by the German army.

In this way the training and doctrine would already be in place for the new M1 based versions.

Side note the next page of the DTR listed above provides a link to a good (marketing) video on stern landing vessels.

The Leopard days are long gone and the capabilities maintained and lost with that fleet, are what they are.

What's important is where we are going with our MBT force. The fleet upgrade of or tanks, and hopefully extra numbers of MBT units will certainly add punch and redundancy to our fleet. Also the development of MBT based engineering vehicles under Land 8160 is very exciting, and points to a much heavier Brigade.These will be introduced around the time when the Land 400 phase three vehicles enter service providing options for Army to work in a very hostile environment with the correct kit.
A long over due capability.
It was a shame only a small total of 59 MBT's were purchased in the first place, with none of them offering the engineering options that we now seek to acquire. A reflection of the priority at the time

Any way it is what it is.
Certainly good to see we are moving in the correct direction now.


Regards S
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
The obvious choice having been selected for the CRV.
They also want a medium range DFSW?
Why not just keep Javelin which is a medium range weapon.

New long range weapon capability selected under the lethality system project (Land 159)
5 February 2020
The Australian Army and the wider Australian Defence Force (ADF) will acquire the Rafael Spike LR2 missile system as its Long Range Direct Fire Support Weapon capability, under the Lethality System project (Land 159).



Chief of Army, Lieutenant General Rick Burr AO, DSC, MVO said the acquisition of the Spike LR2 system will contribute to the Army maintaining a competitive edge against evolving threats.



“The Long Range Direct Fire Support Weapon capability will enable our dismounted teams to engage armoured targets faster, at increased range, and with improved accuracy,” Lieutenant General Burr said.



“New technology and capabilities enable Army to challenge it’s adversaries in complex, remote and hostile environments.



“Army must be equipped and always ready to deal with warfare at all ranges, at all times.



“The alignment with the Combat Reconnaissance Vehicle (Land 400 Phase 2), will also enable Army to deliver improved operational effects for the ADF in sustainment, training and maintenance.”



The introduction of the Spike LR2 will ensure that Army is equipped with a modern and credible dismounted anti-armour guided missile system to target contemporary armoured threats.



Army in conjunction with Defence is currently considering options to address a Medium Range Direct Fire Support Weapon capability which will be presented to the Australian Government for consideration in 2022.



Media contacts
Issued by Ministerial and Executive Coordination and Communication,
Department of Defence,
New long range weapon capability selected under the lethality system project (Land 159) | Defence News
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
I would have thought that Spike LR2 ought to capably cover the medium range requirement as well (?). Strikes me as the more modern weapon compared to Javelin or Spike MR. Perhaps a buy of additional LR2 systems will follow.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The obvious choice having been selected for the CRV.
They also want a medium range DFSW?
Why not just keep Javelin which is a medium range weapon.


New long range weapon capability selected under the lethality system project (Land 159) | Defence News
From reading the article, it appears that the Spike LR2 will be replacing the Javelin in the dismounted DFSW role.

I can see several reasons for doing so. Commonality between vehicle carried/launched ATGM's and dismounted DFSW, as AFAIK there is not a currently developed and in service Javelin ATGM vehicle launcher. Why should Australia keep two stocks of missiles with essentially the same role? Another factor I suspect is cost, with the US-sourced FMG-148 Javelin costing ~USD$175,000 per missile in FY2019 while the Spike LR2 (from a 2017 order from Germany) cost ~€112,400 per missile. The fact that the missiles can/will be built in Australia would certainly not hurt either.

EDIT: Additional comment. At current currency conversion pricing, it works out that Javelin missiles are close to 50% more costly than Spike LR2 missiles. With that in mind I could certainly see Australia either running down the existing stocks and/or (with US permission due to FMS and ITARS rules) on-selling/gifting launchers and remaining munitions to another Javelin user once the Spike LR2 capability has been stood up.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

MARKMILES77

Active Member
The Australian Army and the wider Australian Defence Force (ADF) will acquire the Rafael Spike LR2 missile system
What does "and the wider Australian Defence Force" refer to?
Airfield Defence Guards or use from Naval vessels maybe?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I see that the USMC have put in an additional order for more Amphibious Combat Vehicles(26) for $113.5mil USD, I wonder if it would be worth the ADF's time to get a couple of troops worth to trial from the LHD. if not hand them over to the USMC as a gift

 
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