ADF General discussion thread

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I wish we could treat it like a tender and just say neither proposal meets our needs, go away and try again and just keep sending them away until they present us with leaders and ministers they we want who will do what we need doing.
Good one, very funny! Wonder if it would take as long as the Caribou replacement to find the right ones?

Actually I've got a solution to the problem, many years ago a mate said to me:

"What we need is a benevolent dictator, put him in power for 10 years, get everything done that needs to be done, and just before the 10 years are up, take him out and 'dispose' of him before he gets too comfortable in the job and then install the next one, repeat as necessary!"
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Good one, very funny! Wonder if it would take as long as the Caribou replacement to find the right ones?

Actually I've got a solution to the problem, many years ago a mate said to me:

"What we need is a benevolent dictator, put him in power for 10 years, get everything done that needs to be done, and just before the 10 years are up, take him out and 'dispose' of him before he gets too comfortable in the job and then install the next one, repeat as necessary!"
The other one I read in a fantasy novel of all places, was appoint (against their wishes) the most competent and capable business people to run the country for a fixed term with all of their assets being liquefied and placed in general revenue for the duration of their tenure. The catch being the amount returned would be adjusted up or down in direct proportion to the growth or contraction of the economy on their watch.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
The other one I read in a fantasy novel of all places, was appoint (against their wishes) the most competent and capable business people to run the country for a fixed term with all of their assets being liquefied and placed in general revenue for the duration of their tenure. The catch being the amount returned would be adjusted up or down in direct proportion to the growth or contraction of the economy on their watch.
Good one too, I'd certainly vote for either your solution or my solution, either way I think we would probably get a better result for the Country, especially considering the quality of the donkeys that currently populate both sides of politics at the moment.

But I still like my suggestion, to 'dispose' of them near the end of their term, sort of solves the problems of the 'golden handshake' payouts, no more retired pollies with their noses in the feed bag for the rest of their lives!!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Good one too, I'd certainly vote for either your solution or my solution, either way I think we would probably get a better result for the Country, especially considering the quality of the donkeys that currently populate both sides of politics at the moment.

But I still like my suggestion, to 'dispose' of them near the end of their term, sort of solves the problems of the 'golden handshake' payouts, no more retired pollies with their noses in the feed bag for the rest of their lives!!
One I favoured here in NZ was give them three years (NZ election cycle) to do their job. If they stuffed up take them to Waiouru and let NZ Army use them as target practice. Keep doing this to encourage the following lots to do their job properly. The only problem with it is that somebody would have to write out an environmental impact statement. Paperwork always paperwork.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Just announced - Mike Kelly.
Least he has a background in defence and will be a bit harder to bluff, wonder if he can knock some sence into gillard and the budget, not that it will make much of a difference now with the election being called, if anything it makes it harder for those with difficult portfolios to really achieve things without looking to rush thing before they are dumped, just hope it's not another hewson debacle and everyone thinking they will give Abboutt too much power and vote a different way.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Just announced - Mike Kelly.
Actually I think you've got it slightly wrong.

Mike Kelly is taking over as the Minister for Defence Material from Jason Clare.

I believe that Smith is still the Def Min.

Anyway, couple more rats jumping ship from HMAS Gillard, wonder how many more rats will resign their posts in the comming months or not seek another term at the election?

Starting to appear more like NSW Labor, with all the "retiree's" before the NSW election last year, and we all know that happened there!
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Actually I think you've got it slightly wrong.

Mike Kelly is taking over as the Minister for Defence Material from Jason Clare.

I believe that Smith is still the Def Min.

Anyway, couple more rats jumping ship from HMAS Gillard, wonder how many more rats will resign their posts in the comming months or not seek another term at the election?

Starting to appear more like NSW Labor, with all the "retiree's" before the NSW election last year, and we all know that happened there!
Kelly has some reasonably competant shoes to fill. I was quite impressed with Jason Clare, only wish he was the defmin. Don't know much about Kelly though, I think in Gillards world they have handed him a poisoned chalice.
 

King Wally

Active Member
The 2013 Defence White Paper was released this morning. Here's an overview from the Australian

POTENT new electronic warfare aircraft that can freeze enemy missile defences over a huge area, the likelihood that the Navy's promised 12 new submarines will be a bigger evolved version of the Collins Class boats, and a more conciliatory approach to China, are key elements of the Gillard government's new defence white paper.

The document released today reveals that the RAAF will get 12 new Growler electronic attack aircraft instead of the original plan to refit 12 of its existing 24 Super Hornets as Growlers.

The government says that will not affect plans to buy around 100 fifth generation Joint Strike Fighters in the future.

Defence will get additional funding for the Growlers.

The number of options for replacing the Collins Class submarines has been cut from four or five to two - with the evolved Collins firming as the most likely but with an undertaking to include new technology that could well emerge overseas. The new submarines will be built in Australia.

The government will also bring forward replacement of the navy's Armidale Class patrol boats, which have been heavily used on border protection operations across Northern Australia.

That will be one of a number of key decisions designed to keep Australia's vital shipbuilding industry operating strongly and bridge the so-called “Valley of Death” expected when two giant landing ships now under construction are completed before the submarines are ready for construction.

Replacement supply ships may be built in Australia to replace HMAS Sirius and HMAS Success.

The white paper makes no commitment to acquiring advanced Hobart-class air warfare destroyers.

Neither does it make a firm decision on long-running proposals to acquire long-range surveillance drones to watch over Australia's northwest.

But Australia still plans to replace the RAAF's ageing AP-3C Orion maritime surveillance aircraft with Boeing P-8A aircraft and unmanned aircraft, with a final decision due later this decade.

The white paper is much more conciliatory towards China than the last strategy document released in 2009, which warned against China's growing military might in the Asia Pacific region.

It says Australia welcomes China's rise, which had brought positive economic benefits for Australia.

“The government does not believe that Australia must choose between its longstanding alliance with the United States and its expanding relationship with China, nor do the US and China believe we must make such a choice,” the paper says.

After being strongly criticised for cutting defence funding in the last budget to about 1.56 per cent of GDP, the government has undertaken to increase funding to 2 per cent of GDP when budgetary conditions allow.

The paper says the current national fiscal environment remains challenging, with lower revenue than expected, making it more difficult to return the budget to surplus.

“The government remains committed to a defence budget which ensure the ADF (Australian Defence Force) can meet the government's operational, force posture and preparedness requirements and deliver the core ADF capabilities the government requires to protect Australia's national security interests,” it says.

“And doing that with fiscal discipline and within the priority of improving the sustainability of the budget.”
Looks like 12 new Growlers to come, and a move toward ambiguous budget funding compared to past white papers.

Some people predicted a 4th Air Warfare Destroyer may have been included but most likely the recent budget shortfalls in revenue killed that discussion.
 
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weegee

Active Member
Indo defence plans

Hey guys, while looking for information on the white paper today I came across an article about how Indonesia wants to beef up and modinise their defence forces which Is no problem for me. What I found strange is that they specifically state that they want to be and have a stronger and more modern defence force than what we have as we'll as Singapore etc. what does everyone think? Should we be flattered or worried?
 

King Wally

Active Member
Hey guys, while looking for information on the white paper today I came across an article about how Indonesia wants to beef up and modinise their defence forces which Is no problem for me. What I found strange is that they specifically state that they want to be and have a stronger and more modern defence force than what we have as we'll as Singapore etc. what does everyone think? Should we be flattered or worried?
Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au

Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono says his country should strive to have a more powerful military than Australia.

About 16,000 Indonesian troops are preparing for joint military exercises in East Java.

Meeting with military commanders, Mr Yudhoyono told them that Indonesia's military should be bigger and more modern than countries like Australia, Singapore and Malaysia.

Indonesia's military boasts 470,000 active troops, while the Australian Defence Force has just over 80,000 full-time personnel and reservists..

It has also embarked on a military upgrade program, building warships and drones, as well buying fighter jets, helicopters and rockets.
I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
It is probably a matter of pride and some concern that they, with the far greater size of their military and population see themselves as weaker than their smaller neighbours. I for one would be quite upset if NZ was more powerful than us, not out of fear but pride, I would be asking why? what are we doing wrong? etc.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
im waiting for the discovery of oil off Cocos or Christmas island, then a falklands style scenario to see what the goverment at the time would/could do.
 

King Wally

Active Member
im waiting for the discovery of oil off Cocos or Christmas island, then a falklands style scenario to see what the goverment at the time would/could do.
Buddy you and me think alike.... and to crazy specific levels.

Not saying I'm paranoid about it happening next week or anything but into the long term its on my mind. Particularly if oil/natural gas etc prices rise over time and total value hits critical levels.
 

weegee

Active Member
Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.

I found this today saying that Indonesia is buying over hundred second hand tanks from Germany see this link for the article Germany To Sell Tanks to Indonesia | Defense News | defensenews.com.
It seems as though they are pushing ahead with getting more military kit, I just wonder why so many tanks? its not like they have huge expanses of area for tank warfare like we do here in Australia? And if Indo are involved in some type of conflict internaly lets say, how will they get these tanks from island to island they do seem to have a few of those!
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
From another thread this is what was actually said:

NKRI adalah harga mati. Kekuatan militer kita harus lebih besar dan modern dibanding negara-negara tetangga, seperti Singapura, Malaysia, Australia, dan lain-lain. Mengingat luas negara kita, kekuatan militer Indonesia mutlak harus lebih besar," Presiden SBY menegaskan.

translate it to English and you get

"Indonesia Unity/Integrity is final. Our military might should be more bigger and modern then our neighbours, such as Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, etc. Considering the size of our nation, our military might have to be bigger" the president SBY said.

So im of two minds;

A. it either was ABC being deliberate in what was translated or,
B. Poor translation of his interview?

CD
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
Our military is the size it is at least partly, because of a long standing intent not to annoy or antagonise Indonesia.

Hell, we even notified them in advance last time we bought a new weapon for our Hornet fighters in case they got upset...

In case any missed the Gulf War of 1991, numbers mean very little these days and there is little about either the TNI or the ADF that is overtly threatening to one another.
 

weegee

Active Member
Our military is the size it is at least partly, because of a long standing intent not to annoy or antagonise Indonesia.

Hell, we even notified them in advance last time we bought a new weapon for our Hornet fighters in case they got upset...

In case any missed the Gulf War of 1991, numbers mean very little these days and there is little about either the TNI or the ADF that is overtly threatening to one another.
I didn't think we worried each other, that's why I thought It was somewhat strange that we a Singapore etc were specifically mentioned when they stated who they want to be bigger and more modern than.
 

rand0m

Member
More rubbish by our jounalist to inspire the old fear of our northern neighbours. Keep in mind Indonesia's closest neighbours are are the 'five powers defence arrangement', it would make you feel a little isolated.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I didn't think we worried each other, that's why I thought It was somewhat strange that we a Singapore etc were specifically mentioned when they stated who they want to be bigger and more modern than.
They already are bigger than us. More modern? Ah, no and not likely ever to be unless their economy grows exponentially, whilst ours massively shrinks. If an idea of being more modern is typified by small purchases of fighter jets and a couple of tank battalions, then sure i hope some of them enjoy being more "modern".

The reality is, that stuff isn't capability it's assets. Unless you invest equally in every stage of capability development (and we can see Indonesia as an example doesn't appear to by virtue of limited to no weapons acquisitions at the very least) then what you have is a bunch of stuff that looks good at an airshow, at a parade, under scripted exercise events and so forth. There is no REAL substance to such acquisitions when it comes to genuine combat capability.

Not when you consider warfare against others who possess similarly advanced systems.
 
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