ADF General discussion thread

Takao

The Bunker Group
I have to ask this question; which items on the above list could realistically be acquired and integrated into the ADF within the next five years?
100% on point Todjaeger. Some of those aren't physically possible, the production lines just aren't there

In addition - @StingrayOZ, how are you paying for it all? Including workforce.

I understand the desire to have more now, and I would love it, but most things are scheduled in years out. Take our new CH-47, they are US Army airframes that we asked for. If they'd said no, we'd be looking at at least 18 - 24 months before they'd be delivered. And that's for a capability that exists.

We can do stuff quick, where it exists and where there is the justification. Neither exist at the moment.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Upgrading the subs is certainly a bold option, but one at least worth looking into.

The USS Washington was a converted SSN to SSBN and that occurred quite quickly, as did the Russian conversion of its Zulus. Obviously products of a different time and age. However, as you are already cracking them open, and doing a lot of work, they are an existing platform, it is possible that such work could be completed in less than 5 years. It would be a challenging project, and <5 years would be a challenging demand. However, they are likely to be out of the water for 3-5 years anyway, with their life extension. Doing this may not significantly impact the timing of the program at all. But there is risk, and certainly expense.

There really isn't any spare space on the Collins, they are quite space constrained as most subs are. I am talking about a hull plug. Not a large one, probably 1-2 m in length. However, for that you have a stealthy survivable platform that can make long range strikes and dash. It would be a real leap in capability and a real adjustment and realization of how the strategic situation has changed.

Waiting for the Attack class really pushes the time frame out. Particularly if you are waiting for later batches for that type of capability. Could be decades before FOC of a single sub. So we either upgrade Collins with that capability, or we essentially go forward without it. I certainly think its worth considering for both classes.

Aircraft.. if the T-7 can't be done in the timeframe, then t-50/FA-50. Which is essentially a lower powered, higher availability F-16. It is already in production. It could be upgraded with the 414 engine. While the T-7 might be a superior trainer, if its not available until the mid 2030's, then we may be at the stage where we need things now rather than later.

There are of course other projects..
What? SSN-787 USS Washington is a Block III Virginia-class SSN, currently in active service with the USN.

Additional comment; after going through the histories of USN SSBN classes, I came across the George Washington-class SSBN, with the lead ship being the USS George Washington, SSBN-598, which had originally been laid down as a Skipjack-class SSN and was to be commissioned as USS Scorpion SSN-589, but was changed during construction by the addition of a 40m plug containing ballistic missile tubes. IMO this is a rather different situation than is being proposed for the Collins-class SSG, as the change was to a vessel under construction, rather than modifying an already completed vessel. Further, the change appears to have been made from SSN to an already designed (but otherwise construction had not then yet commenced) SSBN class which was based off the "parent" SSN design. Unless the design work has already been started, or preferably, been completed, then all that design work for a potential VLS hull plug would need to be done, prior to any kit being ordered or work on implementing such modifications. Given that adding such a hull plug could impact the trim and buoyancy of a sub, as well as the acoustic properties, it is something which should be designed with some care, which would take time. From my POV, unless the RAN has already been working quietly for some time on modifying the Collins-class to be able to carry and launch LACM, especially via VLS, then it is unlikely that such a capability could be designed, kit ordered and delivered and modifications implemented by the middle of 2026, ~five years from now.

I could easily see design work taking a couple of years, with delivery of the first VLS systems likely taking a year or two after that, if not more. After that, then I believe the actual modification work could start on a RAN sub, and while I do not know how long such work would actually take, I would not be surprised if such significant modifications took three to five years, or were done to coincide with FCD scheduling. Just looking at what I believe would need to be done, and guestimates as to how long such work would take, I think adding a VLS-based LACM capability to the RAN subs would take a seven to ten year timeframe before the first units were available for service. If my guesses are at all accurate, then such a capability would not be able to be implemented to meet threat situations which occur in the middle of this decade.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yep restricting essential exports to China is a bold move one that equally hurts both sides, so far the Chinese have only really put trade sanctions on goods they can get elsewhere

Iron Ore might be China's Achilles heel much in the same way as when Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act in July 1940 then about 12mths later the US froze all Japanese assets in the US, would things get this far I do not know but we all know what happened next.
Cutting the PRC's petroleum imports would likely have a more immediate impact than stopping the export from Oz to the PRC of iron ore. This could also likely be done from outside the SCS due to the natural SLOC chokepoints leading into the SCS from the Indian Ocean. I do imagine though that if a RAN vessel were to board and capture a Chinese-flagged, owned, or bound, super tanker loaded with crude, the RAN crew would lament the fact that prize money is essentially no longer awarded...
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
You aren't going to fix the delays in the submarine and frigate programs so maybe the time has come to explore other options to cover for the lack of modern naval units that will be available over next decade or so.

Long range strike capability, extra Poseidon's and perhaps back track on the decision not to buy additional tankers.
 

Depot Dog

Active Member
The difference is that an IRBM class weapon like the LRHW uses a hypersonic glide vehicle (HGV) rather than an air-breathing hypersonic cruise missile (HCM). AFAIK the hypersonics research conducted in Australia to date (with scramjets etc) has been entirely directed at more HCM-like applications. This probably wouldn't give us the reach we are talking about here, at least not without using a truly enormous and expensive missile (ref the Chinese DF-100). I suspect we'd be relying on the US for an HGV based system, and even theirs isn't ready yet.
Before we start this debate we need to clarify terminology. I have attached a US congress document that verifies my points. I have taken the liberty of highlighting inside the doucument my points for easy referance.

Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) Is a ballistic missile that flys a ballistic trajectory

Long Range Hypersonic Weapon (LRHW) Is a means to get a HGV in the air and hypersonically gliding to its target

Hypersonic Glide Vehical (HGV) They are launched from a rocket and glide at hypersonic speed to target. Australia has formed an company called Hypersonix. The plan is to use HGV to launch low orbit satellites. It is a three stage rocket where the first two stages fly back to the launch site to be reused. The costs of the satellite is approx $25,000.00 per Kg. This has the military potential of launching small military satellites.

Hypersonic Cruise Missiles These are powered by air breathing scramjets. Aussies are in the forfront of this technology.Hypersonic International Flight Research Experimentation (HIFiRE) is an Australian driven program that developed our own Scramjet capable of substained flight up to Mach 8. This has led to SCIFire.This was followed by Australian United States agreement to develope a air breating hypersonic cruise missile. This is published to have long range strike capability.

Given that in the 1950 to the seventies we developed rockets for war and peace at Woomera. Given our published knowledge in Hypersonics. It is not a big leap to put a Hypersonic missile on a rocket and send it to where ever.

Regards
DD
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Before we start this debate we need to clarify terminology. I have attached a US congress document that verifies my points. I have taken the liberty of highlighting inside the doucument my points for easy referance.

Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) Is a ballistic missile that flys a ballistic trajectory

Hypersonic Glide Vehical (HGV) They are launched from a rocket and glide at hypersonic speed to target. Australia has formed an company called Hypersonix. The plan is to use HGV to launch low orbit satellites. It is a three stage rocket where the first two stages fly back to the launch site to be reused. The costs of the satellite is approx $25,000.00 per Kg. This has the military potential of launching small military satellites.

Hypersonic Cruise Missiles These are powered by air breathing scramjets. Aussies are in the forfront of this technology.Hypersonic International Flight Research Experimentation (HIFiRE) is an Australian driven program that developed our own Scramjet capable of substained flight up to Mach 8. This has led to SCIFire.This was followed by Australian United Staes agreement to develope a air breating hypersonic cruise missile. This is published to have long range strike capability.

Given that in the 1950 to the seventies we developed rockets at for war and peace at Woomera. Given our published knowledge in Hypersonics. It is not a big leap to put a Hypersonic missile on a rocket and send it to where ever.

Regards
DD
Yes, these are all useful clarifications of the nomenclature. What I was trying to point out is that HGV (rather than HCM) based systems seem to occupy the longest range niche in current/projected hypersonic programs.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but our domestic HCM oriented pursuits yielding something in the range class of HGV based systems like LRHW or even OpFires would buck the current trend in hypersonics development.
 
Last edited:

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Modifying the Collins class would be very risky, with such a potential small window if any mods stuff up, take longer etc then it could seriously impact the availability of our boats. Would rather stick with what we have and know what it can do then get something that could trash our current capability even if on paper it sounds good.

As to getting what we can as early as we can the only way to get it earlier and fielded is if we have a nation willing to sell us excess gear or one willing to let us take their earlier orders as the US has done for us a few times.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
As to getting what we can as early as we can the only way to get it earlier and fielded is if we have a nation willing to sell us excess gear or one willing to let us take their earlier orders as the US has done for us a few times.
It depends on what the specific items are. If the kit being acquired is something already in ADF service, just in increased quantity, then it really is just a matter of there being sufficient production slots, surplus kit already produced, or Australia being permitted to 'jump' ahead in the production queue.

OTOH for some of the items which would be newly introduced into ADF service, the matter can get a bit more complicated.

Take the NSM as a Harpoon replacement for instance. In addition to acquiring stocks of the missile and establishing training and maintenance programmes for the warstocks, the missile would need to be integrated into the platforms the ADF would utilize it from. In the case of the Hobart-class DDG's and ANZAC-class FFH's, there are specific locations where the quad-cell Harpoon launchers are located. These might also be suitable locations for NSM launchers, or there might be 'better' positions for NSM to be launched from due to possible differences in launcher weight, launcher clearance when firing, missile exhaust temps, etc. What is also necessary would be changes made to the CDS, possibly both software and hardware, in order to provide launch and targeting data, etc. All standard stuff really, but things which take time and require resources in order to accomplish.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
An interesting and informative article by Jim Molan that is really worth the read. He gives pause for considerable thought, and should be a compulsory read. Yes I am aware of the opening paragraph so don't get your political panties in a twist if you are not of a particular persuasion.

 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
An interesting and informative article by Jim Molan that is really worth the read. He gives pause for considerable thought, and should be a compulsory read. Yes I am aware of the opening paragraph so don't get your political panties in a twist if you are not of a particular persuasion.

I think it's foolish of him to drool over the government like he does instead of simply acknowledging their work. Avoiding partisanship is vital to keep everyone in Oz focused on the ball for the remainder of the decade.
 

south

Well-Known Member
I think it's foolish of him to drool over the government like he does instead of simply acknowledging their work. Avoiding partisanship is vital to keep everyone in Oz focused on the ball for the remainder of the decade.
Valid, but that does not take away from the remainder of the message. My gut feel is that Australia is waking up.
 

Unric

Member
In reference to Molan's last scenarios about defending AU interests in case things go poorly for the US in a major conflict, would it be worth planning now as to how best transform the ADF from the "one shot' force he describes if that eventuated? I.e. How best to ramp up / create new formations, what ships could be "requisitioned" etc. Such an exercise might just highlight the biggest gaps (or what is completely futile).
Hopefully already done and tucked away out of public sight.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I think it's foolish of him to drool over the government like he does instead of simply acknowledging their work. Avoiding partisanship is vital to keep everyone in Oz focused on the ball for the remainder of the decade.
What did you expect? Seriously?

Jim Molan is not Jim Molan private citizen and retired Army, he is Jim Molan Liberal Senator for NSW and a member of the current Morrison LNP Government.

His comments are what one would expect from a serving member of the current Government, I would expect no less if it was the other way around, eg, if he was a serving member of an ALP Government.

Again, what do you expect?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In reference to Molan's last scenarios about defending AU interests in case things go poorly for the US in a major conflict, would it be worth planning now as to how best transform the ADF from the "one shot' force he describes if that eventuated? I.e. How best to ramp up / create new formations, what ships could be "requisitioned" etc. Such an exercise might just highlight the biggest gaps (or what is completely futile).
Hopefully already done and tucked away out of public sight.
I think that you should read it again and concentrate on resilience, logistics and the lack thereof. He wrote an earlier piece about resilience which is a must read:


In it he speaks about self reliance and resilience, both of which Australia (& NZ) lack at the moment. That's the crunch of his argument and when you have a dearth of industry etc.,you are in trouble. For example you can't commander ships if you don't have any suitable ones sailing under your flag. If you attempt to commander ships sailing under a foreign flag you get yourself in all sorts of serious international legal trouble.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
ake the NSM as a Harpoon replacement for instance. In addition to acquiring stocks of the missile and establishing training and maintenance programmes for the warstocks, the missile would need to be integrated into the platforms the ADF would utilize it from. In the case of the Hobart-class DDG's and ANZAC-class FFH's, there are specific locations where the quad-cell Harpoon launchers are located.
NSM is designed as a harpoon replacement. NSM is something that would take time to integrate into the various systems. However, harpoon does not seemed longed for this world, and LRASM isn't an ideal replacement for Harpoon as a 1:1 replacement in everywhere harpoon is currently deployed. We are far better off starting this process now, than later. JSM/NSM are items we need to look at sooner rather than later, and while we may not need huge stocks of these types of missiles, they are likely to be very important in the forseeable future.

n addition - @StingrayOZ, how are you paying for it all? Including workforce.
Most of this is acquisition cost, there are minimal manpower requirements. Missiles are ideal from an acquisition point of view as they are mostly a acquisition cost, with minimal ongoing costs, particularly with US kit that is already integrated into the systems the ADF uses (TLAM, SM6, SM3, etc). In other cases expansion of existing platform numbers (p8, F-35 etc). RAAF has 4th squadron planning for several decades now. Other items like trainers, are replacement of existing systems so man power is already there just moving to a new platform.

So these acquisitions can be paid for a number of ways, delay expenditures in other areas of the budget for example. Most of these are already penciled in as acquisitions, it is more about bringing them forward, or moving them from a maybe acquire to acquire.

Unless the design work has already been started, or preferably, been completed, then all that design work for a potential VLS hull plug would need to be done, prior to any kit being ordered or work on implementing such modifications. Given that adding such a hull plug could impact the trim and buoyancy of a sub, as well as the acoustic properties, it is something which should be designed with some care, which would take time.
The ideal location IMO is at the front of the sub, outside the pressure vessel, behind the sonar, like in the early Virginia's. This creates minimal design changes. Yes, buoyancy, acoustic and performance would have be considered, but you are doing that any way with a LOTE Collins program, this incorporated early would result in minimal additional work. The LOTE program isn't without risk, some aspects can effectively be MOTS technologies, launching missiles from a sub isn't new, there are multiple suppliers that can be used, it just needs to be integrated into the design.

Doing this work now on Collins may make more sense than doing this work on the first batch of Attack. If not doing it at all, then we need to accept that we won't have any capability at all until later batches of attack which would see IOC in the late 2030's or 2040's.

Weapons launch is an area where Collins has some advantage over Attack. With only 4 tubes, there is very limited capability to launch any limited strike with the attacks, obviously for France that is not an issue with a carrier, surface fleet and SSBN. Australia doesn't have that kind of capability. Also, if Collins is life extended, we better think about what sort of mission we are likely to give these subs, and due to the slower transit, lower endurance, high noise profile, what missions may be suitable for them in 2030 or 2040. Having them armed with ~8 or so harpoon missiles in vertical tubes, and another four in the front, gives significant first strike capability. These subs may be very useful, not threading the eye of a needle chasing brand new subs and threats, but sitting further off the coast, gathering intelligence, and being a general deterrent. This also de-risks the vertical launch program for the attacks.

The changes have significant acquisition costs, minimal man power costs. But as pointed out, the most significant cost is time. Time to acquire and time to integrate and realize that capability. If we want things operational before the end of this decade then these programs much be initiated now. We are at the point now, where if these programs do not happen in the next ~12 months, they may never happen. We may never see SM-6 missiles integrated into the RAN. We may never see TLAM type capability. We may never see a 4th squadron of F-35, even if we wanted it, and had money for it. etc..

Things like the 4th F-35 squadron, it may be because of logistic issues, that doesn't require any significantly more pilots or maintainer capability for a significant portion of their operational lives, but increases availability of the overall fleet significantly.

Either the conflict comes and later production slots are all gobbled up, or its too late to be useful, or takes too long to integrate. No matter how much money we throw at these project later, they won't be able to be completed. While these OTS type acquisitions often consider that normal world order will continue, that these things will always be available, that we will always be able to ask the US to "jump ahead" and take their slots due to our long and slow acquisition programs (Chinooks, SuperHornets, missiles, it seems every Australian acquisition is uses US build allocations).

That won't be the case forever. If we order in 2023 we might be able to get equipment 2024, if we order in 2025, we might be eligible for equipment in 2035. IMO there is a stronger case for the day moving things forward as part of risk mitigation. My worry is the useful usable window is closing, and that the ADF, as a whole in all services should press to bring acquisitions forward as much as possible particularly in bottlenecked supply chains like advanced missiles, advanced platforms.
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
What did you expect? Seriously?

Jim Molan is not Jim Molan private citizen and retired Army, he is Jim Molan Liberal Senator for NSW and a member of the current Morrison LNP Government.

His comments are what one would expect from a serving member of the current Government, I would expect no less if it was the other way around, eg, if he was a serving member of an ALP Government.

Again, what do you expect?
Ah, that explains the lickspittle.
Still think it diminishes the impact of his case.
Country over party.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
NSM is designed as a harpoon replacement. NSM is something that would take time to integrate into the various systems. However, harpoon does not seemed longed for this world, and LRASM isn't an ideal replacement for Harpoon as a 1:1 replacement in everywhere harpoon is currently deployed. We are far better off starting this process now, than later. JSM/NSM are items we need to look at sooner rather than later, and while we may not need huge stocks of these types of missiles, they are likely to be very important in the forseeable future.


Most of this is acquisition cost, there are minimal manpower requirements. Missiles are ideal from an acquisition point of view as they are mostly a acquisition cost, with minimal ongoing costs, particularly with US kit that is already integrated into the systems the ADF uses (TLAM, SM6, SM3, etc). In other cases expansion of existing platform numbers (p8, F-35 etc). RAAF has 4th squadron planning for several decades now. Other items like trainers, are replacement of existing systems so man power is already there just moving to a new platform.

So these acquisitions can be paid for a number of ways, delay expenditures in other areas of the budget for example. Most of these are already penciled in as acquisitions, it is more about bringing them forward, or moving them from a maybe acquire to acquire.


The ideal location IMO is at the front of the sub, outside the pressure vessel, behind the sonar, like in the early Virginia's. This creates minimal design changes. Yes, buoyancy, acoustic and performance would have be considered, but you are doing that any way with a LOTE Collins program, this incorporated early would result in minimal additional work. The LOTE program isn't without risk, some aspects can effectively be MOTS technologies, launching missiles from a sub isn't new, there are multiple suppliers that can be used, it just needs to be integrated into the design.

Doing this work now on Collins may make more sense than doing this work on the first batch of Attack. If not doing it at all, then we need to accept that we won't have any capability at all until later batches of attack which would see IOC in the late 2030's or 2040's.

Weapons launch is an area where Collins has some advantage over Attack. With only 4 tubes, there is very limited capability to launch any limited strike with the attacks, obviously for France that is not an issue with a carrier, surface fleet and SSBN. Australia doesn't have that kind of capability. Also, if Collins is life extended, we better think about what sort of mission we are likely to give these subs, and due to the slower transit, lower endurance, high noise profile, what missions may be suitable for them in 2030 or 2040. Having them armed with ~8 or so harpoon missiles in vertical tubes, and another four in the front, gives significant first strike capability. These subs may be very useful, not threading the eye of a needle chasing brand new subs and threats, but sitting further off the coast, gathering intelligence, and being a general deterrent. This also de-risks the vertical launch program for the attacks.

The changes have significant acquisition costs, minimal man power costs. But as pointed out, the most significant cost is time. Time to acquire and time to integrate and realize that capability. If we want things operational before the end of this decade then these programs much be initiated now. We are at the point now, where if these programs do not happen in the next ~12 months, they may never happen. We may never see SM-6 missiles integrated into the RAN. We may never see TLAM type capability. We may never see a 4th squadron of F-35, even if we wanted it, and had money for it. etc..

Things like the 4th F-35 squadron, it may be because of logistic issues, that doesn't require any significantly more pilots or maintainer capability for a significant portion of their operational lives, but increases availability of the overall fleet significantly.

Either the conflict comes and later production slots are all gobbled up, or its too late to be useful, or takes too long to integrate. No matter how much money we throw at these project later, they won't be able to be completed. While these OTS type acquisitions often consider that normal world order will continue, that these things will always be available, that we will always be able to ask the US to "jump ahead" and take their slots due to our long and slow acquisition programs (Chinooks, SuperHornets, missiles, it seems every Australian acquisition is uses US build allocations).

That won't be the case forever. If we order in 2023 we might be able to get equipment 2024, if we order in 2025, we might be eligible for equipment in 2035. IMO there is a stronger case for the day moving things forward as part of risk mitigation. My worry is the useful usable window is closing, and that the ADF, as a whole in all services should press to bring acquisitions forward as much as possible particularly in bottlenecked supply chains like advanced missiles, advanced platforms.
There are already programs underway in RAN to install SM-6 and TLAM capability onto the AWD’s. They are contained within the sustainment funding programs for the platform.

Have to dig a bit, but they are published publicly.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are already programs underway in RAN to install SM-6 and TLAM capability onto the AWD’s. They are contained within the sustainment funding programs for the platform.

Have to dig a bit, but they are published publicly.
I do get lost where these two are at the current point in time.

From what I last recall, there are programs that seem to be working towards a missile of the capability of Sm-6 and something akin to TLAM. The question seems more to when rather than if. They have been mooted as possible future acquisitions for a while and obvious selections with no real alternatives, and both recently upgraded.

I guess my point is full steam ahead. Particularly on those two. Not only that, we need to work as if they are already in the pipe, so Collins LOTE imo should at least assess the risk and capability of VLS on the Collins. I worry about a chicken and egg problem. You can't put VLS onto Collins until we have a VLS long range strike weapon like TLAM. We don't have TLAM because they are tied to another platform and acquisition program. It may end up being an opportunity loss through scheduling sequencing, not money, time, risk or people costs.

While TLAM would be a useful addition to the AWD, realistically how many are they going to carry? We only have 3 AWD's and well, they have a limited load out of 48, and that is going to be focused mostly on their air mission. Plus a destroyer may not be the ideal platform, for that weapon.

Subs by their very nature, are hard to prove they aren't somewhere. So we get a lot more bang for our buck having a credible strike capability by being able to launch a significant number of TLAMs from a submarine platform. IMO they should be more a submarine program than a surface one. While the original TLAM was all about land strike, the recent upgrades make it a significant naval weapon against surface ships. I'm not against surface ships having them, just worried if the capability will flow through. Even with no VLS on the Collins, launching them through the regular tubes is still significant, and how the UK deploys the weapon, and again, should be part of the LOTE program. Not that it will be a big burden, with similar dimensions to the existing torpedo's and similar launch requirements to harpoon, and should already be integrated into the combat system.

There is really nothing stopping us loading up collins with TLAM (of say 18 in its current configuration). Surging two or three boats, 36-54 missiles. Its not insignificant. TLAM being a long range weapon units wouldn't need to sit next to each other and could strike targets simultaneously even though they are 1000 miles apart.

Something like TLAM is a game changer, even if we never fire it in anger. The way it changes the enemy calculations is quite powerful.

I guess I am just keen to see it realized sooner rather than later.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I do get lost where these two are at the current point in time.

From what I last recall, there are programs that seem to be working towards a missile of the capability of Sm-6 and something akin to TLAM. The question seems more to when rather than if. They have been mooted as possible future acquisitions for a while and obvious selections with no real alternatives, and both recently upgraded.

I guess my point is full steam ahead. Particularly on those two. Not only that, we need to work as if they are already in the pipe, so Collins LOTE imo should at least assess the risk and capability of VLS on the Collins. I worry about a chicken and egg problem. You can't put VLS onto Collins until we have a VLS long range strike weapon like TLAM. We don't have TLAM because they are tied to another platform and acquisition program. It may end up being an opportunity loss through scheduling sequencing, not money, time, risk or people costs.

While TLAM would be a useful addition to the AWD, realistically how many are they going to carry? We only have 3 AWD's and well, they have a limited load out of 48, and that is going to be focused mostly on their air mission. Plus a destroyer may not be the ideal platform, for that weapon.

Subs by their very nature, are hard to prove they aren't somewhere. So we get a lot more bang for our buck having a credible strike capability by being able to launch a significant number of TLAMs from a submarine platform. IMO they should be more a submarine program than a surface one. While the original TLAM was all about land strike, the recent upgrades make it a significant naval weapon against surface ships. I'm not against surface ships having them, just worried if the capability will flow through. Even with no VLS on the Collins, launching them through the regular tubes is still significant, and how the UK deploys the weapon, and again, should be part of the LOTE program. Not that it will be a big burden, with similar dimensions to the existing torpedo's and similar launch requirements to harpoon, and should already be integrated into the combat system.

There is really nothing stopping us loading up collins with TLAM (of say 18 in its current configuration). Surging two or three boats, 36-54 missiles. Its not insignificant. TLAM being a long range weapon units wouldn't need to sit next to each other and could strike targets simultaneously even though they are 1000 miles apart.

Something like TLAM is a game changer, even if we never fire it in anger. The way it changes the enemy calculations is quite powerful.

I guess I am just keen to see it realized sooner rather than later.
Sustainment Project CN60 is the activity integrating SM-6, ESSM Block II and ‘possible’ TLAM integration solutions onto AWD, my apologies. ESSM Blk 2 wnd SM-6 are definites and are underway, TLAM remains ‘possible’ but funding has been made available to design and integration solution should Government select it, so I’d say it’s leaning towards ‘very’ possible…

Info from Portfolio Budget Statements 20/21.
 

Attachments

Top