ADF General discussion thread

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Not so sure about that. While an Endurance 140 would certainly provide a capable platform for a Pacific support ship, there is still very little that we know or appears in the public domain about just what the Pacific support ship is supposed to be.

Based off the 2008 contract Thailand signed for an Endurance-class LPD, I would anticipate a contract for one now would cost ~AUD$270 mil. before any modifications or Australianization. Given that from what has been announced previously, the funding for a Pacific support ship is to come from within the existing budget by diverting funding from other areas (like training, IIRC) I am not certain that something costing hundreds of millions of dollars could be squeezed in. Not to mention there would still need to be resources allocated to provide support and a crew.

I do think the idea of some sort of Pacific support ship, tasked with providing humanitarian support and adding Australian diplomatic and economic efforts in the ASEAN/Pacific region is worthwhile. I just get concerned that people might be getting ahead of themselves in terms of what would be appropriate and effective, as well as at what cost.
My thinking was that a vessel for such a role should be able to actually provide the intended aid which considering a severe storm can knock out a port would mean a helipad and well dock.

That said could be smaller then the endurance prof completely different design but to me those seem to be essential needs to perform the task or it's just another ship sitting pretty doing nothing.

In any case budget for it is in the $180-280m range with indicated announcement this year or early next year so we will find out soon enough.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
My thinking was that a vessel for such a role should be able to actually provide the intended aid which considering a severe storm can knock out a port would mean a helipad and well dock.

That said could be smaller then the endurance prof completely different design but to me those seem to be essential needs to perform the task or it's just another ship sitting pretty doing nothing.

In any case budget for it is in the $180-280m range with indicated announcement this year or early next year so we will find out soon enough.
My thinking is we are looking at a Ship that can sit off the more remote Islands and provide Medical, Engineering, construction and IT support to the local communities and that would call for some Well Dock facilities and a Helo capability. And of course do HADR as req.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
The recent government document on the military budget increase over the next ten years seems to suggest in the short term, for example, the acquisition of longer-range missiles that will add to the capability of the A.D.F in perhaps the medium term could programs like the frigate program have their production schedule increased?
I understood this schedule was to avoid production closures between programs but would the earlier arrival of these ships more desired?
Also is there some hard and fast rule about exceeding two percent of g.d.p on a defense budget with the possibility that gdp may contract due to the covid crisis
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I understood this schedule was to avoid production closures between programs but would the earlier arrival of these ships more desired?
Also is there some hard and fast rule about exceeding two percent of g.d.p on a defense budget with the possibility that gdp may contract due to the covid crisis
The defence budget has been explicitly decoupled from GDP and the PM addressed the issue of falling GDP while making the point in interviews that 2% is a floor, not a target in any case.

If we decide we need more ships, we've already been told that the yards have been designed with the capacity to crank up production. Unless we improbably want to double the numbers, I expect that speeding up the drumbeat would suffice anyway.

Always assuming the success of the various schemes in increasing apprenticeships, skilled trades, technical officers and all the professionals needed in design, engineering, planning and other areas of course.

oldsig
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
My thinking is we are looking at a Ship that can sit off the more remote Islands and provide Medical, Engineering, construction and IT support to the local communities and that would call for some Well Dock facilities and a Helo capability. And of course do HADR as req.
All of that could potentially be in the cards, but absent a release from gov't on the actual intent and more information about funding...

A well dock IMO would be a very nice feature to have, but I would not count on it being a feature of the Pacific support ship. AFAIK no commercially built ships have well docks, which means that the Pacific support ship would have to be ordered by Australia, as opposed to AUSGov purchasing a new or second hand vessel from the commercial market like was done with ABFC Ocean Shield or HMAS Sirius.

If anyone could find and post/link to more information regarding the intent of the Pacific support ship, that would be quite helpful.

From my POV, likely areas of intent to use are;
Medical operations/relief efforts: This would likely consist of a fixed sickbay facility, with secondary and possibly tertiary areas of the vessel which can be converted to medical use. This part actually is not that complicated to do, providing the vessel has adequate space in compartments/holds where ventilation and power are available along with access. The extra needed medical kit like hospital beds, etc. would also need to be stored aboard, but much of that can be folded or compacted to require less space until setup.

Comms/command post: During a HADR response, the ability to communicate and coordinate responders is crucial and quite often also rather difficult since 'normal' communications infrastructure is likely absent or non-functional. Any Pacific support ship would likely need a robust and redundant comm system and command centre. SATCOM for communicating with Australia and the wider world, then systems appropriate to communicate with other assets in the immediate vicinity at sea, on land, and in the air.

I am far less certain that Australia would want the ability to transport and then land heavy engineering/construction equipment, especially over a beach as opposed to at a port facility. The reason for my uncertain involves the actual logistics required for a disaster response, and what would be involved. From my POV it would likely be easier for Australia to task a RAE unit to provide an engineering detachment from Darwin, Townsville or Brisbane, which could be rapidly on-loaded to a waiting RAN amphib, than to arrange for a civilian construction team and vehicles to be hired and loaded aboard the Pacific support ship.

The other thing with that, would be the question of how often would the Pacific support ship be deployed away from Australia apart from during a disaster? If the vessel is only used during or in the aftermath of a disaster, then not only could the ship be idle for long periods of time (hopefully, anyway...) but then Australia would also lose the opportunity to provide non-disaster humanitarian assistance near neighbours in the ASEAN/Pacific region.

Again, until more is known about the intent, we are basically speculating and coming up with 'wish list' capabilities. What could be interesting to speculate on is what specific roles gov't would consider most likely or most appropriate for the Pacific support ship.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Would it be reasonable to suggest that the capabilities mentioned would also be desirable for roles in bushfire assistance in Australia as per last summers operations by the navy off Mallacoota using H.M.A.S Choules and Sycamore
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
When all said and done while it would be of use it does as @Todjaeger pointed out depends on what government intends their role to be and under what outfit they will be operated by.

What I am now wondering is when choules is replaced what will happen with her. Could scrap her sure but I imagine a few nations will be interested and might score us some brownie points if we pass her on to a regional nation. India and Indonesia come to mind as the top ones but Malaysia, Philippines and Vietnam also possible.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
All of that could potentially be in the cards, but absent a release from gov't on the actual intent and more information about funding...

A well dock IMO would be a very nice feature to have, but I would not count on it being a feature of the Pacific support ship. AFAIK no commercially built ships have well docks, which means that the Pacific support ship would have to be ordered by Australia, as opposed to AUSGov purchasing a new or second hand vessel from the commercial market like was done with ABFC Ocean Shield or HMAS Sirius.

If anyone could find and post/link to more information regarding the intent of the Pacific support ship, that would be quite helpful.

From my POV, likely areas of intent to use are;
Medical operations/relief efforts: This would likely consist of a fixed sickbay facility, with secondary and possibly tertiary areas of the vessel which can be converted to medical use. This part actually is not that complicated to do, providing the vessel has adequate space in compartments/holds where ventilation and power are available along with access. The extra needed medical kit like hospital beds, etc. would also need to be stored aboard, but much of that can be folded or compacted to require less space until setup.

Comms/command post: During a HADR response, the ability to communicate and coordinate responders is crucial and quite often also rather difficult since 'normal' communications infrastructure is likely absent or non-functional. Any Pacific support ship would likely need a robust and redundant comm system and command centre. SATCOM for communicating with Australia and the wider world, then systems appropriate to communicate with other assets in the immediate vicinity at sea, on land, and in the air.

I am far less certain that Australia would want the ability to transport and then land heavy engineering/construction equipment, especially over a beach as opposed to at a port facility. The reason for my uncertain involves the actual logistics required for a disaster response, and what would be involved. From my POV it would likely be easier for Australia to task a RAE unit to provide an engineering detachment from Darwin, Townsville or Brisbane, which could be rapidly on-loaded to a waiting RAN amphib, than to arrange for a civilian construction team and vehicles to be hired and loaded aboard the Pacific support ship.

The other thing with that, would be the question of how often would the Pacific support ship be deployed away from Australia apart from during a disaster? If the vessel is only used during or in the aftermath of a disaster, then not only could the ship be idle for long periods of time (hopefully, anyway...) but then Australia would also lose the opportunity to provide non-disaster humanitarian assistance near neighbours in the ASEAN/Pacific region.

Again, until more is known about the intent, we are basically speculating and coming up with 'wish list' capabilities. What could be interesting to speculate on is what specific roles gov't would consider most likely or most appropriate for the Pacific support ship.
I think we are talking about more than just a HADR Ship here, how often does the RANs Amphibs do a HADR mission, once every 2-3 years? I may be wrong but i think what we are looking at here is a Ship that will spend 6 months a year visiting the small Pacific country’s doing Medical procedures, Engineering works, Construction, maybe some IT stuff, Trg
Helping remote communities in ways that there own Governments can’t. But the problem is that a lot of these places are 100s of Ks away from any port that can handle a large Ship and you are going to need Ship to Shore connectors.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The increase the ADFs Amphib fleet from 2 LHD, 1 LPD to 2 LHD, 2 JSS and several large landing Craft are going to improve our Maritime HADR response significantly anyway. I just don’t see the need for a full time Vessel for HADR only, this has to be about something a lot more.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think we are talking about more than just a HADR Ship here, how often does the RANs Amphibs do a HADR mission, once every 2-3 years? I may be wrong but i think what we are looking at here is a Ship that will spend 6 months a year visiting the small Pacific country’s doing Medical procedures, Engineering works, Construction, maybe some IT stuff, Trg
Helping remote communities in ways that there own Governments can’t. But the problem is that a lot of these places are 100s of Ks away from any port that can handle a large Ship and you are going to need Ship to Shore connectors.
For some of the more remote places, places that lack port facilities suitable for larger vessels, I honestly do not think ship to shore connectors would be a problem.

That might sound strange, I know, but for such places, I would imagine that most personnel and goods would be transferred between the Pacific support ship and the beach/shore either via embarked helicopter, or via smallcraft like embarked RHIB's, or local vessels. I do not really think in such cases there would be a need for the Pacific support ship to land and support vehicles or heavy construction equipment. After all, if a remote island is far enough away that there is no port facilities nearby, then local infrastructure and resources which rely on/use/see vehicular travel are unlikely to exist. After all, the locals would not have much need of a road if they do not have vehicles to really travel on it, and similarly if the nearest sizable port was 100's of km away, then getting basic consumables for vehicles like petrol, lubricants, and spare parts would be problematic. It would be a different story if the one of the intentions behind the Pacific support ship would be to develop or build infrastructure in remote areas in the Pacific, but I do not really see that as likely.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am starting to think that this Pacific Support Ship is proving to be a distraction and that if the CoA wish to proceed with something like that then it's not a RAN / ADF responsibility, but should be run by DFAT or some other department.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I am starting to think that this Pacific Support Ship is proving to be a distraction and that if the CoA wish to proceed with something like that then it's not a RAN / ADF responsibility, but should be run by DFAT or some other department.
It is one of those thing that, due to a lack of information on what the intent is, it becomes really hard to figure out what is relevant and what is not.

There are definite areas which ADF input could be necessary, or if not necessary still quite valuable. OTOH this might be more of a whole of gov't asset in which case the ADF would be better off staying away and letting it operate with/by Australian Aid or a similar type organization.
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
It is one of those thing that, due to a lack of information on what the intent is, it becomes really hard to figure out what is relevant and what is not.

There are definite areas which ADF input could be necessary, or if not necessary still quite valuable. OTOH this might be more of a whole of gov't asset in which case the ADF would be better off staying away and letting it operate with/by Australian Aid or a similar type organization.
I'm sure there is some element of 'showing the flag' amongst our pacific neighbours. Look at what it's named.

If it's more than a thought bubble, perhaps it's also going our version of a 'spy ship', keeping an eye on our friends from the north activities in the pacific. We couldn't very well send Australian trawlers so far from home and have anyone believe they were actually trawlers.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm sure there is some element of 'showing the flag' amongst our pacific neighbours. Look at what it's named.

If it's more than a thought bubble, perhaps it's also going our version of a 'spy ship', keeping an eye on our friends from the north activities in the pacific. We couldn't very well send Australian trawlers so far from home and have anyone believe they were actually trawlers.
There is a vastly larger apparatus fulfilling that role already, and various RAN units that can be utilised in such a role when transiting through areas, so no need for such a specific platform. ;)
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm sure there is some element of 'showing the flag' amongst our pacific neighbours. Look at what it's named.
In my opinion this is the main reason. It's a response to the Chinese belt and road scam. Beyond that, until the government provides more specifics, this discussion is starting to feel like a basket weaving circle, going round and round and round

oldsig
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
At the moment I'm wondering what the future salvage and repair ship (a ship tender technically?) Will be. That and under what program it will fall under. For something that is meant to recover and repair the largest ships at sea I'm not sure the budget to replace ocean shield would cover it but maybe it has been lobbed in with the future deadlift and replenishment ships. $4-6 billion is a fair chunk of change so maybe.

That said another question that comes to mind where will we build these largest ships? Sure most can be built at SA or WA but the largest ships planned could very well exceed 20,000 tons.. do we have a spot for them?
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
At the moment I'm wondering what the future salvage and repair ship (a ship tender technically?) Will be. That and under what program it will fall under. For something that is meant to recover and repair the largest ships at sea I'm not sure the budget to replace ocean shield would cover it but maybe it has been lobbed in with the future deadlift and replenishment ships. $4-6 billion is a fair chunk of change so maybe.

That said another question that comes to mind where will we build these largest ships? Sure most can be built at SA or WA but the largest ships planned could very well exceed 20,000 tons.. do we have a spot for them?
Take yourself over to the RAN thread starting at about @hauritz's post #28200 and read the next three or four pages which you may have missed. Not much meat until the Shipbuilding Plan is updated, but plenty of informed speculation at least

oldsig
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I am starting to think that this Pacific Support Ship is proving to be a distraction and that if the CoA wish to proceed with something like that then it's not a RAN / ADF responsibility, but should be run by DFAT or some other department.
With some recent clarity that the Pacific Support ship is not one of the proposed two Amphibs in the 2016 DWP ,I'd suggest the PSS will be of a modest size and design.
More a flag waver painted white yet hopefully still doing some good work in the region.
A bit of China push back and if i wear my sceptical hat ,also good for some domestic political capital.
More the size and shape of MV Sycamore with an emphasis on medical,training and some rudimentary logistics provided by either helicopter or small ships boats.

Heavy HADR will be picked up by larger RAN / NZ assets.

Time will tell




Regards S
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
An interesting little Q and A session with the defence minister.
What I took away from it is that there will be a more flexible approach to identifying, developing and accelerating the introduction of new defence technologies and capabilities. It is about time they did this. It is one thing to plan for capabilities that will take a decade or more to deliver but what we really need now are capabilities that can be bought online fairly quickly. She stated that the ADF would also divest itself of certain capabilities that may yet need to be identified. Obviously the new defence initiative will be very much focused on our immediate region. Sustainability and self-reliance are two other themes I picked up on.

It kind of amused me that she mentioned that she had already garnered approval from Indonesia. Imagine even 5 years ago if Australia tried to push the idea of acquiring long-range strike capability. How times change.
 
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