ADF General discussion thread

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To be fair, the situation with the F-35 is unclear, TR3 is here, but Blk4 isn't. There are issues. We have 72 F-35, and 36 super hornets. This is reasonable fighter capability. We should probably look at enablers, weapons and autonomous capabilities, as well as upgrades.

The fourth squadron of F-35 was never confirmed AFAIK. There was not order being cancelled. It was always in the future, and in balance of UAV or other similar capabilities. Arguably upgrading the 36 SH to Block 3 capability is a good here and now option, and upgrading the existing F-35 Fleet to Blk IV, is more important than acquiring only a squadron of F-35 blk 4. Really the forth squadron of F-35 was AWOL when we ordered Growlers. AIM 260 should be a priority.

Blk3 for the SH may include cft, which would, somewhat, mitigate lack of additional refuellers. Sort of. Not really. Singapore? Commercial?

Same I guess for the JSS/AOR- Allies? Commercial? Its been done before. Heres and idea, refit the RAS capabilities onto the LHD's, at least they could support their own little task force, for regional deployments. Doesn't cost any extra man power, or require new ships. Not ideal, but if a AOR was broken, or some thing needed, it would be at least band aid capability bridge other options.

The Arafura's have their own issues. Arguably what is really lost is the opportunity cost of going with something that can be built fast and immediate that is closely based off the Arafuras. Even if its not exactly what we want. Its another burnt failed to follow through order. Looks bad, is bad. Tearing up the contracts will probably cost as much as not building 4 MMPV, which honestly in this market, would probably be of interest to smaller friendlies and would round out the contracts and investments and buy time to adapt and you would have something that can go bang.

Hydrographic and mine sweeper is a obliterated. Shame, as mine laying is really coming into its own IMO. As this moves into UUV space pretty quickly. I wonder if they will dispose of the Huons entirely?

Army, the news is pretty grim. Perhaps more than the lost of units, is the destruction this causes to SMEs and suppliers who gain, tried to bet on the government actually coming through on promises, and are now going to be thrown to the wall on order numbers. Relationships strained, and its not clear that what is built is enough to offer real capability anyway.

Probably the darkest part of all this, is IMO, it seems as if we are still floating in terms of strategies and direction. Kill programs, kill future programs, kill existing capabilities, break promises, lurch into new uncharted announcements and high risk, long term, projects with out even clear candidates selected, with builders who don't operate in Australia. It doesn't seem to explain why obvious program that could provide real capability quickly aren't explored, or where we are really going with this.
Those F-35 problems don’t seem to have stopped Singapore, Poland, Greece, Canada, Czech Republic, Finland, Switzerland and probably others I can’t recall off the top of my head, from ordering more despite being fully aware of those TR-3 / Block IV problems. The ‘4th JSF’ squadron was called ‘Additional Air combat capability’ with the emphasis on the ‘additional’. Certainly ADF and the former Government didn’t believe that 72x JSF and 24x Growlers provided a sufficient air combat capability, hence why ‘additional’ aircraft were required.

It was confirmed. It was listed as project to proceed under FSP2020 and it gained first pass approval. It has never been a case of ‘and / or’ for upgrading our existing F-35’s to the Block IV standard or acquiring new aircraft. The existing fleet has always been planned and funded to stay in lockstep with the USAF in terms of upgrades.

The Growlers were ordered in 2013 and were all in-service by 2017. They had nothing whatsoever to do with “Additional air combat capability” as a project.

The Super Hornet Block III program cancelled the conformal fuel tanks in 2021. They have not been completely developed, nor integrated onto the Super Hornet, nor flight tested. There is no way on God’s green earth RAAF will fund that, when the USN for cost, performance and schedule reasons, stopped them…

Again the additional KC-30A’s like so many other capabilities have just vanished, without replacement.

The list is actually astonishing. The only thing that is “integrated” is the slash and burn team effect that has delivered this outcome.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Those F-35 problems don’t seem to have stopped Singapore, Poland, Greece, Canada, Czech Republic, Finland, Switzerland and probably others I can’t recall off the top of my head, from ordering more despite being fully aware of those TR-3 / Block IV problems. The ‘4th JSF’ squadron was called ‘Additional Air combat capability’ with the emphasis on the ‘additional’. Certainly ADF and the former Government didn’t believe that 72x JSF and 24x Growlers provided a sufficient air combat capability, hence why ‘additional’ aircraft were required.

It was confirmed. It was listed as project to proceed under FSP2020 and it gained first pass approval. It has never been a case of ‘and / or’ for upgrading our existing F-35’s to the Block IV standard or acquiring new aircraft. The existing fleet has always been planned and funded to stay in lockstep with the USAF in terms of upgrades.

The Growlers were ordered in 2013 and were all in-service by 2017. They had nothing whatsoever to do with “Additional air combat capability” as a project.

The Super Hornet Block III program cancelled the conformal fuel tanks in 2021. They have not been completely developed, nor integrated onto the Super Hornet, nor flight tested. There is no way on God’s green earth RAAF will fund that, when the USN for cost, performance and schedule reasons…

Again the additional KC-30A’s like so many other capabilities have just vanished, without replacement.

The list is actually astonishing. The only thing that is “integrated” is the slash and burn team effect that has delivered this outcome.
Realistically there are no alternatives to the F-35 assuming most airforces want a capability that will still be relevant and supported for the next 40 years. I guess for some nations, the J-35 might be an option down the road, assuming it offers some of the F35’s capabilities along with an aggressive price.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
All of which sounds wonderful and proactive to the general public. (Shades of Neville Chamberlain proclaiming "Peace in our times")

But what happens when the threats, scenarios and environment that the "Focused Force" has been structured and trained to address don't come around (Don't forget that any potential enemy will have their own ideas and thoughts on how and where the next conflict will be fought. Also remember that in WW2 the defence of Singapore was 'focused' on the maritime approaches.)

What do the politicians actually mean by "Forceful Projection"?
What are the triggers for "Forceful Projection"?
Does "Forceful Projection" come in a range of sizes that will be used in different situations?
How long can the "Forceful Projection" be sustained?
"Forceful Projection"?
This and the other slogans just sound like spin.
Like company mission statements. Fluffy statements that all sound the same but don't mean much in real terms.

What's in you inventory?
Have you got the trained people and supply lines to use it.

That's it.

The ADF by virtue of its geography, history and middle power ranking will always need to do a bit of everything.
Call it what you like, you just need the tools..
Sure the emphasis will ebb and flow, but the basics don't.


Cheers S
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
No JSS makes me wonder if we might not see the Choules paid off earlier than planned. Hardly seems any point in retaining it if there is no intention of replacing it.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If we do, and we end up with the 7 tier 2s or more, we are going to be a bit short of refuelling capacity. If they were serious about force projection, the additional oiler/amphib capability would be pri 2 after the combat vessels. That they are not would suggest that the powers that be are more interested in show than go.

And having a squadron of Army operated ships swanning around, if that’s what happens, won’t help; they will almost certainly end up as the resupply system rather than the insertion system in anything except the most benign of situations. They will certainly not be a substitute.
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
Extract of items cut from the Australia newspaper Today. JASSM-ER I thought was a priority item? New Growle aircraft? Didn’t know there was a requirement? Or was thsi the conversion of the existing 12 Rhinos that are pre wired for Growler hardware? Was that in planning?

Was the heavy lift the extra 4 Hercs?

CUTS / SAVINGS

$3bn from delaying consideration of a fourth squadron of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters

$1.5bn from not going ahead with new EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft

$3bn from not going ahead with new heavy lift air capability

$3bn from delaying new JASSM-ER missiles for RAAF

$4.1bn from the cancellation of two large support vessels for the navy

$1.4bn from cancellation of planned Defence facility upgrades in Canberra, with the savings to go to operational bases in Australia’s north

$2bn from delaying army combat equipment upgrades

$2bn from cancellation of second regiment of self-propelled howitzers (already announced)

$2bn from cancellation of SkyGuardian armed drone (Coalition decision)
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Those F-35 problems don’t seem to have stopped Singapore, Poland, Greece, Canada, Czech Republic, Finland, Switzerland and probably others I can’t recall off the top of my head, from ordering more despite being fully aware of those TR-3 / Block IV problems. The ‘4th JSF’ squadron was called ‘Additional Air combat capability’ with the emphasis on the ‘additional’. Certainly ADF and the former Government didn’t believe that 72x JSF and 24x Growlers provided a sufficient air combat capability, hence why ‘additional’ aircraft were required.
The F-35 is totally the best fighter and multirole aircraft available. Im not refuting that, I am pro F-35. I am also not a government spin doctor. I am just putting the F-35 stuff into context.

But we have Superhornets and Growlers. Today. Any F-35 replacements for those aircraft would arrive. After 2029 at the earliest. Greece recently order theirs, 2028 seems a likely first delivery date, but F-35 production is not at full capacity, the block IV thing also means there is likely a backlog of work moving forward for parts, assembly and adjustment further delaying future F-35 purchases.

The Super hornets are still doing what they are designed to do, fill in for F-35 deliveries and capabilities. IMO there is still an opportunity to order more F-35's. But the Super hornets are a here and now aircraft in our fleet, with logistics and training already there with weapons we need, like LRASM already integrated. To order more F-35 now means abandoning the F-18 we have now, no future upgrades. Im not sure that is the right choice. IMO the super hornets will have to do a lot of heavy lifting while the F-35 under goes its TR3/Blk 4 upgrade. Which make take many years, perhaps it won't be complete by 2030. Ít's not good news, but it isn't the sky falling which the other areas are seeing. Its not like we are moth balling half the F-35 fleet, cancelling all upgrades and weapons and disbanding half the RAAF. The F-35 is in production, and will be, there is still a window for the RAAF to operate 100 F-35 if it wishes and is deemed to be a requirement. But every day we stray further from that path. It is a delay, not really a cut. Cut of capability in the mid term, perhaps.

It would be a tough call to kill Australia's only LRASM platform in favor for a platform not yet able to fire modern antishipping weapons.
ew Growle aircraft? Didn’t know there was a requirement? Or was thsi the conversion of the existing 12 Rhinos that are pre wired for Growler hardware? Was that in planning?
I assume that is what they are referring to.

I presume this is more able stealing money from other projects to fund the start of other projects. While its $2b in total, the future possibility is there. Not additional planes, just upgrading of jamming capability on the existing planes. This is a very, very fast moving area, particularly with the Ukraine conflict. IMO Jamming capability is critical, in hot wars, and in grey zone conflicts. Opening fire on the Chinese fleet/aircraft with missiles is a huge step to take, degrading Chinese communications and situational awareness with jamming is another.

So the issue I have is not just cuts. But cuts without a whole lot of reasoning. JASSM-ER and Jamming would seem to be two ultra high priorities right now. Cancelling them with no alternative makes no sense.
 

Larso66

Member
I am confused by the intention to turn the army into a US marines type force? Is it all about reinforcing our island friends to the north? That seems a bit narrowly focused.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
I am confused by the intention to turn the army into a US marines type force? Is it all about reinforcing our island friends to the north? That seems a bit narrowly focused.
I would have to agree with you. The problem with turning the Army into USMC lite effectively is that it is not a true like for like transformation. That is because the USMC still has the US Army to provide heavy capabilities and act as a replacement force. There is also all of the other capabilities that the US Navy provide (amphibious lift, logistics etc) which the RAN does not have in abundance. Plus there is the USMC combat aviation which the RAAF can't and doesn't replicate.
 

Armchair

Active Member
I am really surprised by the absence of medium range air defence (would be a long queue, and delays, to buy such systems but there are good reasons for that long queue).
If the counter to ballistic missiles is to be DDGs and long range air launched strike then I would have thought that demanded more air to air refueling capacity.

If Australia’s priority is maritime strike then I can understand the lower priority for more F-35s (certainly before 2030) though.
 

Armchair

Active Member
I am confused by the intention to turn the army into a US marines type force? Is it all about reinforcing our island friends to the north? That seems a bit narrowly focused.
As I understand it, the new requirement is to be able to project land force in Australia’s immediate region (replacing the previous effective mission of generating under equipped battle groups for west Asian contingencies). Both sides in a potential major conflict in the Pacific seek to be able to deny access to hostile surface ships (increasingly relying on land-based maritime strike to do that but also submarines, sea mines and land based air). Denial of access ensures that massed armoured formations in a Pacific war are unlikely because the ships to lift and sustain those troops won’t be committed until the seas are safe (a particularly pressing problem for Australia with limited escorts).

Australia is acquiring some of the capabilities to participate in such a denial strategy. I guess the change can be understood in this way. The previous plan envisaged a regiment of SPHs supporting the (continent-based) manouevre of combined arms battlegroups, the new plan is centred around batteries of long range strike missiles on islands with the infantry protecting them. In other words, artillery is not so much supporting the manouevre of armour and infantry but is the decisive arm.

I think it makes sense as a concept but I can’t see how it works for Australia without a) land-based deployable protection from ballistic missiles and b) a lot more firepower than is being planned c) various other problems discussed on the Australian Army thread.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
As I understand it, the new requirement is to be able to project land force in Australia’s immediate region (replacing the previous effective mission of generating under equipped battle groups for west Asian contingencies). Both sides in a potential major conflict in the Pacific seek to be able to deny access to hostile surface ships (increasingly relying on land-based maritime strike to do that but also submarines, sea mines and land based air). Denial of access ensures that massed armoured formations in a Pacific war are unlikely because the ships to lift and sustain those troops won’t be committed until the seas are safe (a particularly pressing problem for Australia with limited escorts).

Australia is acquiring some of the capabilities to participate in such a denial strategy. I guess the change can be understood in this way. The previous plan envisaged a regiment of SPHs supporting the (continent-based) manouevre of combined arms battlegroups, the new plan is centred around batteries of long range strike missiles on islands with the infantry protecting them. In other words, artillery is not so much supporting the manouevre of armour and infantry but is the decisive arm.

I think it makes sense as a concept but I can’t see how it works for Australia without a) land-based deployable protection from ballistic missiles and b) a lot more firepower than is being planned c) various other problems discussed on the Australian Army thread.
As a concept, I believe I understand it, which is different from me thinking it is a sensible one. I can, to a degree, understand how/why the USMC is being re-shaped the way it is planned, but that is not the same as my thinking it is a good idea.

Planning to 're-shape' Army into some sort of bastard, red-headed stepchild of the USMC, particularly given the time it would take to implement such a plan, and also how much longer it would take to recover and regenerate capabilities if (when) is becomes known that the plan leaves large capability gaps, leaves me concerned.

It is also worth mentioning that the ADF is a fraction of the size of just the USMC, and that the USMC is also able to draw upon the rest of the US military and defence establishments for additional support and capabilities whilst Australia has only a small fraction of such capabilities and in many areas, little or none at all.

As it is I question some of the assumptions and assertions made about the USMC reformation, and the ADF/Army reformation even more so.

Take for instance the USMC decision to disestablish it's Tank capability, apparently in the belief that if (when) the USMC needs armoured support, that can be supplied by the US Army who still retains tanks. IMO there is a significant flaw that it seems many planners are or have overlooked in their assessments of what can and likely will happen. The specific flaw that I am referring to here is the reality that in order for the US Army to provide tank support to a USMC combat deployment, particularly to islands in the Pacific, the US Army not only already needs to be present on those islands, it needs to be present with tanks. If a USMC unit engaged in combat needs support from armoured elements, it is no good if it will take Army a week or more to move tanks into the area of operations because the amphibs deployed by the USMC did not have any, and it will take time for the US to get suitable vessels to where US Army tanks are based to pick them up and bring them into the area of operations.

In a similar vein, I have grave doubts that what appears to be the current gov't and Defence strategy for the future has been fully thought through. An obvious potential issue on attempting to form such a 'focused' force is the question of what happens if the focus wrong? That is just one of the potential issues which can arise if one hyperspecializes in anything. The more focused or specialized the more expensive and/or less relevant something is for anything other than that area of focus, expertise or specialization.

Reforming the ADF into a force which will be apparently highly dependent on land-based AShM batteries deployed to islands to Australia's north and northwest is IMO fraught with risk and could prove as effective as the Maginot Line was in defending France.

Firstly, whatever conflict Australia becomes embroiled in would need to be one where Australian forces, if deployed to these islands as envisioned, could actually have an impact upon the conflict. If a conflict erupts somewhere that Australia becomes involved with, but does not involve that region or SLOC's which run through there, then all the forces Australia reformed to be of use will be largely or perhaps even entirely ineffective.

Secondly, if the SLOC in/through the island chains are important, Australia would need to be able to get it's forces into the area/onto those islands in order to be effective. Absent permission from the gov'ts and people living on those islands, Australia would have to effectively invade and it could potentially even require opposed or partially opposed landing of Australia forces. Relating to this, the hypothetical Australian AShM batteries would also require sufficient/appropriate defending forces to survive attacks which could come from the forces Australia intends to oppose, but could also come from 'local' people and forces.

Thirdly, Australia would also need to first establish and then sustain the logistics chain to deliver the support which such deployed forces require. This logistics chain would need to be large enough and robust enough to deliver what Australian forces would need, when and where they would need it, and likely some losses and opposing forces attempting to cut those supply lines.

Lastly, all the above has been making the assumption that Australia could establish forward deployable, land-based AShM batteries for A2/AD use. It could also turn out that ISR and comms capabilities to make such units work in the region require more resources than Australia can or is willing to allocate. Or it might be that the ROE's Australia considers 'acceptable' are too restrictive to make land-based batteries effective at OTH engagement of surface vessels. Given the amount of ship traffic which transits some of the region's SLOC's, I believe this could happen. IIRC on average some 200 vessels transit the Malacca Strait every day. If Australia could deploy an A2/AD unit somewhere within striking distance of the Malacca Strait in a bid to close the Strait to hostile traffic, Australia would also need to have some way to ID legitimate/hostile targets from friendlies and neutral shipping. WIthout such an IFF capability, Australia could potentially end up engaging neutral or friendly shipping, and/or disrupt maritime trade world wide including impacting other nations otherwise completely uninvolved.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
I am really surprised by the absence of medium range air defence (would be a long queue, and delays, to buy such systems but there are good reasons for that long queue).
If the counter to ballistic missiles is to be DDGs and long range air launched strike then I would have thought that demanded more air to air refueling capacity.

If Australia’s priority is maritime strike then I can understand the lower priority for more F-35s (certainly before 2030) though.
One glimmer of hope, is that there is a plan for a longer range air defence system, but it is not obvious in the IIP because it is not an all new system but an expansion of the NASAMs systems.
Malcolm Davis's article in The Strategist claims that NASAMs can be adapted to fire Raytheon's SkyCeptor missiles.

Australia could simply buy a range of systems now available and operationally proven, such as Lockheed Martin’s MIM-104 Patriot and longer-range THAAD. Alternatively, we could improve the short-range NASAMS system that Norway’s Kongsberg is delivering for the army. It uses AMRAAM interceptors but can accept integration of other, farther-flying munitions, such as the AMRAAM-ER with a range of 70km and Raytheon’s SkyCeptor with a range of 200km.

SkyCeptor is a two stage missile developed from the Israeli Stunner/David's Sling Missile with a claimed range of 250km.
It has been offered as an updated 4th generation version of the Patriot System. Patriot PAAC 4 and as a "plug and play" addition to existing SAM systems.
SkyCeptor is an advanced multi-mission interceptor
designed for "plug-and-play" insertion into the
fielded air and missile defense systems. Integrated
easily into a variety of engagement scenarios.
SkyCeptor's compatibility with established canister
and rail launchers offers maximum operational
and deployment flexibility. SkyCeptor's concept
of-operation requires minimal cueing from sensor
resources to ensure optimum rate of fire - even during
saturation attacks. SkyCeptor's modern design
inherently fits the future net-centric command and
control architectures affordability.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
One glimmer of hope, is that there is a plan for a longer range air defence system, but it is not obvious in the IIP because it is not an all new system but an expansion of the NASAMs systems.
Malcolm Davis's article in The Strategist claims that NASAMs can be adapted to fire Raytheon's SkyCeptor missiles.



SkyCeptor is a two stage missile developed from the Israeli Stunner/David's Sling Missile with a claimed range of 250km.
It has been offered as an updated 4th generation version of the Patriot System. Patriot PAAC 4 and as a "plug and play" addition to existing SAM systems.

The LR AD system is going to be operated by the RAAF, the problem with that is, the RAAF has zero institutional experience in operating SAMs, there are no units that could be converted, not even a Corps of SAM operators. They are going to have to build this capability totally from scratch. In this regard they are even further behind the 8-ball than Army is with HIMARS, Army will convert RAA personnel to operate them.
 

Wombat000

Active Member
I can appreciate why LR AD might fall into RAAF domain.
its responding to a operating environment beyond the tactical ground, correct?
- I’m thinking strategic asset defence, wider area denial and perhaps hopefully address their airbase defensive posture.

historically RAAF operated Bloodhound SAMs, so yeah it was a long time ago.
im guessing there will be a filing cabinet somewhere with instructions, and they could ask their mates how they currently do it.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
We shouldn't underestimate the quantity of new capabilities the ADF is trying to introduce over the next 10 years and the amount of work involved.

Army
A genuine IFV, the M-113AS4 provides some Trg, but is a long way from being a genuine IFV.
Firing ATGW from vehicles (Boxer and Redback)
SPG, RAA has no experience operating SPGs.
HIMARS, RAA has no experience operating MRLs.
NASAMS, RAA has not operated MR SAMs for over 20 years and never from a vehicle.
LMV-H, Army Water Tpt has no experience in operating vessels of this size.

RAN
SSNs
Land Attack Missiles, Tomahawk is an all-new capability for the RAN.
Drones, little to no experience in operating Air, Surface and Sub-Surface Drones from ships.

RAAF
Firing Hypersonic missiles from Jets.
MQ-28, no one is operating aircraft in this class and is yet to prove this capability will work.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I can appreciate why LR AD might fall into RAAF domain.
its responding to a operating environment beyond the tactical ground, correct?
- I’m thinking strategic asset defence, wider area denial and perhaps hopefully address their airbase defensive posture.

historically RAAF operated Bloodhound SAMs, so yeah it was a long time ago.
im guessing there will be a filing cabinet somewhere with instructions, and they could ask their mates how they currently do it.
Medium Range Ground-Based Air Defence | Defence
Air 6502 Phase 1 is a RAAF project. I would suspect that the winning system will be integrated with CEAFAR and use a C&C system based on what the NASAMs is using, so it all works together. They will work closely with the Army as well as allies to develop this capability.
 
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