NZDF General discussion thread

So Russian subs operated near NZ, that doesn't constitute a threat. I'm sure if we were privy to the operations of all nation with SSN's we'd find out that they pass through NZ territorial waters regularly, you can bet on it the US does, do you honestly think that would tell us that they were there? Is there any reason to believe Russia has any interest in NZ? Remember the last spy ring found in NZ was Israeli, a country who we are supposed to be on friendly terms with. Prior to that Wikileaks reported that the US was spying on NZ.

All Buchanan says is subs sneaking in, he doesn't say who those subs belong to. The article is from 2014.

The Stuff article is a puff piece from 2013.

Neither article point to Russia being a threat to NZ. Putin was KGB, but does that mean Russia is a threat to NZ, that's a big leap?

KiwiRob said:

So Russian subs operated near NZ, that doesn't constitute a threat. I'm sure if we were privy to the operations of all nation with SSN's we'd find out that they pass through NZ territorial waters regularly, you can bet on it the US does, do you honestly think that would tell us that they were there? Is there any reason to believe Russia has any interest in NZ? Remember the last spy ring found in NZ was Israeli, a country who we are supposed to be on friendly terms with. Prior to that Wikileaks reported that the US was spying on NZ.

All Buchanan says is subs sneaking in, he doesn't say who those subs belong to. The article is from 2014.

The Stuff article is a puff piece from 2013.

Neither article point to Russia being a threat to NZ. Putin was KGB, but does that mean Russia is a threat to NZ, that's a big leap?

Click to expand...

If you are aware of how the Israeli Search and Rescue contribution performed in Christchurch then like me you will be equally amazed and angry.
Our passport is a sought after commodity.

KiwiRob said:

So Russian subs operated near NZ, that doesn't constitute a threat. I'm sure if we were privy to the operations of all nation with SSN's we'd find out that they pass through NZ territorial waters regularly, you can bet on it the US does, do you honestly think that would tell us that they were there? Is there any reason to believe Russia has any interest in NZ? Remember the last spy ring found in NZ was Israeli, a country who we are supposed to be on friendly terms with. Prior to that Wikileaks reported that the US was spying on NZ.

All Buchanan says is subs sneaking in, he doesn't say who those subs belong to. The article is from 2014.

The Stuff article is a puff piece from 2013.

Neither article point to Russia being a threat to NZ. Putin was KGB, but does that mean Russia is a threat to NZ, that's a big leap?

Click to expand...

We are aware of your pro Russian sympathys. I have my own sympathies as well which are pro NZ. I just used those two articles as an example of sub sìghtings. There are other incidences that are not in the public domain that involved Russian subs in NZ waters back in the days of the first Cold War. There were certain locations that they were quite interested in and there was a report of one in Cook Strait outside of the then 3 mile limit. I have pieced that together from conversations over time, with various people who knew of such things, including RNZN and RNZAF personnel who were in the services at the time.

shanes_world_05 said:

If you are aware of how the Israeli Search and Rescue contribution performed in Christchurch then like me you will be equally amazed and angry.
Our passport is a sought after commodity.

Click to expand...

They have run active espionage operations against the US, so what makes us so special? It's all part of the game.

KiwiRob said:

How are North Korea and Russia a security threat for New Zealand?

Click to expand...

While neither are a direct threat to NZ currently. We must keep in mind that the trend over recent years is for a slow disintegration of the observance of international law and in consequence a similar reduction of world order. It has been has been put forward by various authorities some of which have been mentioned on this site, that the effects of climate change and population growth will lead to a break down in world order which would be a threat to NZ. Additionally I would add to this that the disregard for world order and international law can only hasten this process, So from my point of view that interference in an other countries affairs or threatens an other countries sovereign rights is a threat to world order and therefore constitutes a long term threat to our peace and sovereignty.

shanes_world_05 said:

If you are aware of how the Israeli Search and Rescue contribution performed in Christchurch then like me you will be equally amazed and angry.
Our passport is a sought after commodity.

Click to expand...

Please do tell ... I've no idea what's being alluded to here.

Gibbo said:

Please do tell ... I've no idea what's being alluded to here.

Click to expand...

One of the victims of the quake was an Israeli. There was alot of media coverage and speculation. My apologies I should not carry that on here. Disregard

Shanesworld said:

One of the victims of the quake was an Israeli. There was alot of media coverage and speculation. My apologies I should carry that on here. Disregard

Click to expand...

OK but I'm still in the dark...any links you can point me to that might clarify?... or maybe PM me?

Gibbo said:

OK but I'm still in the dark...any links you can point me to that might clarify?... or maybe PM me?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about it at all. It's not pertinent to the discussion here.

Rob c said:

While neither are a direct threat to NZ currently. We must keep in mind that the trend over recent years is for a slow disintegration of the observance of international law and in consequence a similar reduction of world order. It has been has been put forward by various authorities some of which have been mentioned on this site, that the effects of climate change and population growth will lead to a break down in world order which would be a threat to NZ. Additionally I would add to this that the disregard for world order and international law can only hasten this process, So from my point of view that interference in an other countries affairs or threatens an other countries sovereign rights is a threat to world order and therefore constitutes a long term threat to our peace and sovereignty.

Click to expand...

Well said and it sums it up nicely.

ngatimozart said:

I wouldn't worry about it at all. It's not pertinent to the discussion here.

Rob c said:

While neither are a direct threat to NZ currently. We must keep in mind that the trend over recent years is for a slow disintegration of the observance of international law and in consequence a similar reduction of world order. It has been has been put forward by various authorities some of which have been mentioned on this site, that the effects of climate change and population growth will lead to a break down in world order which would be a threat to NZ. Additionally I would add to this that the disregard for world order and international law can only hasten this process, So from my point of view that interference in an other countries affairs or threatens an other countries sovereign rights is a threat to world order and therefore constitutes a long term threat to our peace and sovereignty.

Click to expand...

Well said and it sums it up nicely.

Click to expand...

Ok found discussion about Chch etc so ok, topic done!

As for Russia, RobC is correct... they may not be a threat to NZ per se, but they have long been a 'disruptor' state with question marks around their annexation of Crimea (2014) & the opaqueness around their knowledge, maybe even involvement to some degree, in the downing flight MH17 (although I suspect they were caught out by rebels they supported but couldn't really 'manage'); constant provocative flights around European airspace with transponders off; historic blocking of UN resolutions (yes I appreciate that is a complicated bow to draw); clear espionage activity (and yes as does 5eyes)... we all know this stuff. But disruptor states can't be trusted and will always remain a risk to 'international law and in consequence a similar reduction of world order'.

And now here's a topical case that actually does specifically include Russia & activities that impact NZ... not a military risk as such, but certainly an area the NZDF play in... and yes it's only 2 weeks old news! Russia and NZ in 'knock out brawl' over fishing vessel in protected Antarctic waters

Gibbo said:

Ok found discussion about Chch etc so ok, topic done!

As for Russia, RobC is correct... they may not be a threat to NZ per se, but they have long been a 'disruptor' state with question marks around their annexation of Crimea (2014) & the opaqueness around their knowledge, maybe even involvement to some degree, in the downing flight MH17 (although I suspect they were caught out by rebels they supported but couldn't really 'manage'); constant provocative flights around European airspace with transponders off; historic blocking of UN resolutions (yes I appreciate that is a complicated bow to draw); clear espionage activity (and yes as does 5eyes)... we all know this stuff. But disruptor states can't be trusted and will always remain a risk to 'international law and in consequence a similar reduction of world order'.

And now here's a topical case that actually does specifically include Russia & activities that impact NZ... not a military risk as such, but certainly an area the NZDF play in... and yes it's only 2 weeks old news! Russia and NZ in 'knock out brawl' over fishing vessel in protected Antarctic waters

Click to expand...

Yep and that's the point. I read that story about the fishing boat and thought, why doesn't that surprise me in the slightest. Maybe we need to change our ROE surrounding the IFFV in the Antarctic region. Arrest them, bring them back to NZ and if the owners want their catch, ship and crew back, they have to prove that the fish were legally caught. Otherwise ship and catch forfeited to the Crown and captain and crew charged with illegal fishing.

I was on HMNZS Tui when she had the Towed Array in the late 80's early 90's ... all I can say is you will be surprised in what is out there, more than you think.

Nighthawk.NZ said:

I was on HMNZS Tui when she had the Towed Array in the late 80's early 90's ... all I can say is you will be surprised in what is out there, more than you think.

Click to expand...

There used to be the SOSUS just north of the Hauraki Gulf that Defence Science and the RNZN had as well.

ngatimozart said:

There used to be the SOSUS just north of the Hauraki Gulf that Defence Science and the RNZN had as well.

Click to expand...

I thought that was still there?

Shanesworld said:

I thought that was still there?

Click to expand...

I am not sure what the status of it is. I would think that the Clark government would have shut it because they would have considered it to aggressive and warlike for a benign strategic environment.

ngatimozart said:

We are aware of your pro Russian sympathys. I have my own sympathies as well which are pro NZ. I just used those two articles as an example of sub sìghtings. There are other incidences that are not in the public domain that involved Russian subs in NZ waters back in the days of the first Cold War. There were certain locations that they were quite interested in and there was a report of one in Cook Strait outside of the then 3 mile limit. I have pieced that together from conversations over time, with various people who knew of such things, including RNZN and RNZAF personnel who were in the services at the time.

Click to expand...

Aware of my Russian sympathies, seriously, I'm neutral concerning Russia, yes I enjoy going to Russia, I know a lot of Russians but to actually consider Russia a threat to NZ is spurious. Why would they be interested in NZ, for what reason are they a threat?

Rob c said:

While neither are a direct threat to NZ currently. We must keep in mind that the trend over recent years is for a slow disintegration of the observance of international law and in consequence a similar reduction of world order. It has been has been put forward by various authorities some of which have been mentioned on this site, that the effects of climate change and population growth will lead to a break down in world order which would be a threat to NZ. Additionally I would add to this that the disregard for world order and international law can only hasten this process, So from my point of view that interference in an other countries affairs or threatens an other countries sovereign rights is a threat to world order and therefore constitutes a long term threat to our peace and sovereignty.

Click to expand...

You want to have a crack at Russia over that, the US has been far worse. GW2 was an entirely manufactured conflict based on lies and misinformation, Russia hasn't caused trouble on this magnitude.

KiwiRob said:

You want to have a crack at Russia over that, the US has been far worse. GW2 was an entirely manufactured conflict based on lies and misinformation, Russia hasn't caused trouble on this magnitude.

Click to expand...

`You seem rather sensitive on this. I agree with you in regard to GW2 and from a personal point of view I am some what skeptical of getting too close to the US as well as they do have a habit of jumping into things that it probably is best left alone. However two wrongs never make a right. and saying something is ok because someone else did worse is not acceptable. The point I was making was that we cannot afford to have any countries making trouble on the world stage irrespective of who they are, as we have enough looming problems that we will need to face ahead of us, without other countries stirring the pot. The interference of one country into another countries affairs whether physically or by other means, (for example hacking government computers) is unacceptable. The exception to this would be on humanitarian grounds, were a government was carrying out a genocidal program or similar. My main focus is and will continue to be on the security of NZ and our surrounds, including the south pacific islands.
In my view one of the biggest problem we are facing in the world today is corrupt Leadership. this is the corruption by way of power (power corrupts and total power corrupts totally.) wealth, ( the corrupt accumulation of money ) ego, (D.T?) and any other reason including the use of that leaders power to silence any opposition.

To go somewhat out of the box, would something like Japan's Asahi class destroyer be out of the question? The RNZN can call it a heavy frigate instead of a destroyer, it costs US$900 million per ship(about the same as a Hunter class), has 32 VLS, AESA radar, towed sonar array, and 8 SSMs, and carries a SH-60 helicopter. It is somewhat lighter than the Hunter class at 6800 tons full load, and like NZ, Japan also has a very large EEZ to patrol, so range should not be an issue.

Royal Australian Navy

Australian Minister of Defense has announced new missiles for the RAN according to Reteurs

@Pusser Tas How about a link? Are you sure that you have the right thread?

ren0312 said:

To go somewhat out of the box, would something like Japan's Asahi class destroyer be out of the question? The RNZN can call it a heavy frigate instead of a destroyer, it costs US$900 million per ship(about the same as a Hunter class), has 32 VLS, AESA radar, towed sonar array, and 8 SSMs, and carries a SH-60 helicopter. It is somewhat lighter than the Hunter class at 6800 tons full load, and like NZ, Japan also has a very large EEZ to patrol, so range should not be an issue.

Click to expand...

The EEZ isn't the issue because it is a small part of our area of interest which extends from the equator to Antarctica. Our SLOC also extend into North Asia, South East Asia, the Middle East, and North America.

This is a map of our EEZ and continental shelf. It doesn't include our dependencies.


This map is our SAR area and our area of interest encompasses that plus the Fiji, Nauru and Solomon Islands SRR areas. As you can see it is significantly larger than our EEZ and continental shelf above.

As far as the Asahi DDG class go, they would be worth considering along with others.