NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

I am wondering why the RNZAF did not acquire F-5s instead of A-4s back in 1970, the F-5 also had light attack capabilities in addition to being a fighter jet, in addition it had 2 engines for additional redundancy. Also a fully upgraded F-5 like what Singapore, Chile, and Brazil have done is capable of firing BVR missiles, and Chile and Brazil are still keeping their F-5s flying up until now. Also owning upgraded F-5s would have allowed New Zealand to put aside the F-16 purchase issue in the late 90s, since the upgraded F-5s are still capable of flying up until the late 2020s.

In the mid 1960s when the RNZAF were looking at replacing their DH Vampire fighters the CAS, AVM Morrison, had pushed for the F-4 Phantom II as the ideal replacement. He was right and it would have lead us into the F-16 in the 1990s. However the government and Treasury had serious conniptions and the recommendation was flatly refused.

From a NZ point of view, you need to take the following into account.
Any attack on NZ would most likely be preceded by or in conjunction with an attack on Australia, therefore the aggressors most potent assets are more than likely to be tied up elsewhere.
It has been mentioned several times in the past that in an exercise 75 squadron RNZAF was successful in sinking an American carrier which would have been equipped with the E-2 , admittedly an older version, but the Skyhawks and their missiles were both older and the missiles in use had only a 20km range.
By the use of modern ECM and the long stand off range (300km) anti ship missiles , plus innovative tactics as in the case of 75 sqn's success, the SH could still present a formidable deterrent to an aircraft carrier.
Any significant damage to a carrier would put it out of action, however with proper aircraft dispersal, it would be very difficult to put NZ out of action and for that matter unlike a carrier we are unsinkable.

The USN flatly refused to admit that sinking happened, plus another one by a RNZN frigate on a different exercise, by changing the rules after the event and backdating them. 75 Sqn also were quite proficient in knocking down RAAF Hornets and others out of the sky by hiding in the weeds and waves then catching the Mach 1+ merchants on the hop.

From my time in De Eng I think there was also a question mark over the fatigue life of the F5 in NZ flying conditions as the RNZAF had already been bitten in this regard with the Canberra Bi 12 with main spar cracking starting to occur before 10 years.
For those interested the RNZAF lost 3 Skyhawks over 30 years due to engine failure, one at Bulls due to oil pump failure. one at Kakariki due to oil pump failure (different problem to the first and one in the Wairarapa area due to fuel pump failure. this was over 30 odd years and a total fleet of 24. the other 4 were due to non mechanical reasons.

The first crash was 07 and the oil pump was installed the wrong way around after a service. IIRC it was something that could be easily enough done so a fleet wide modification was made in order to prevent this from happening again.

I wonder if the Canberra mainspar problem was because of its basing at Ohakea. I have been given to understand that the air column around the Ohakea region is rather dynamic, and that would place extra stress on the airframe. If they were based elsewhere, say Whenuapai, would have the same level of mainspar cracking occurred?

 

[Redlands18]

In the mid 1960s when the RNZAF were looking at replacing their DH Vampire fighters the CAS, AVM Morrison, had pushed for the F-4 Phantom II as the ideal replacement. He was right and it would have lead us into the F-16 in the 1990s. However the government and Treasury had serious conniptions and the recommendation was flatly refused.

The USN flatly refused to admit that sinking happened, plus another one by a RNZN frigate on a different exercise, by changing the rules after the event and backdating them. 75 Sqn also were quite proficient in knocking down RAAF Hornets and others out of the sky by hiding in the weeds and waves then catching the Mach 1+ merchants on the hop.

The first crash was 07 and the oil pump was installed the wrong way around after a service. IIRC it was something that could be easily enough done so a fleet wide modification was made in order to prevent this from happening again.

I wonder if the Canberra mainspar problem was because of its basing at Ohakea. I have been given to understand that the air column around the Ohakea region is rather dynamic, and that would place extra stress on the airframe. If they were based elsewhere, say Whenuapai, would have the same level of mainspar cracking occurred?

Its no accident that both the USAF and USN used the A-4 in there Aggressor Trg Squadrons.

 

[ngatimozart]

I think this explanation is well put. Others have made similar points as well, define the threat and area of operations, then choose what is required to defeat it.

Any threat to NZ will have to come from the north. Also, NZ would not be facing any conflict on its own. Simple geography says any threat to NZ will be the result of a major conflict involving most of the countries in the Pacific. (Like WW2). So a sovereign capability is important, but they won’t be fighting a future enemy 1 vs 1.

So for example a Super Hornet supported by a strong P-8/surveillance force would be a reasonable threat for anyone trying to operate in NZ waters. Just because a nation like China has (in the future) a carrier with LO fighters, doesn’t mean it’s likely to be seen off the coast of NZ. More likely to be similar to other major conflicts in history, surface raiders or SLCM will be a persistent threat. The ability to sink a ship/submarine will be paramount. Air to air combat will be unlikely unless as part of a large coalition force (with AEWC etc).

The NZ Defence White Papers state that if Australia is attacked NZ will go to it's aid. So you could say that an attack on Australia is an attack on NZ. You are correct in your analogy to the Pacific War of WW2 and whilst it will not be a carbon copy, the concepts will be the same, just the technologies and some of the protagonists have changed. It like WW2 will be a maritime focused war and that's what we have to prepare for. I speak about NZ's seablindness and that is an unfortunate affliction that we have and it is our weakness.

Our pollies, bureaucrats, and general public still think that our 2nd Division is chasing Rommel across the North African desert and then the Germans out of Italy, the RNZAF units in the RAF and the Battle of the River Plate and HMNZS Achilles. That's the history they know and the mindset that they have of fighting a continental war. However they forgotten the 3rd Division that did opposed amphibious landings in the South West Pacific or the RNZN and RNZAF units fighting in the Pacific. Yet it was the Pacific War that caused NZ to collectively fill its pants in 1941 and 1942. They quickly forgot the lessons of that after 1945.

 

[ngatimozart]

Its no accident that both the USAF and USN used the A-4 in there Aggressor Trg Squadrons.

That is very correct. She's a highly manoeuvrable bird and ex RNZAF A-4s are still being used for DACT against the USAF by Draken Aviation . They still fly with the Kiwi roundel on them too. A nice Drive article on the Kiwi A-4

New Zealand A-4s Flew Crazy Formation Rolls While "Plugged-In" To A Buddy Tanker

The Royal New Zealand Air Force's A-4Ks performed multiple variations of the unique and challenging maneuver at air shows for years.

www.thedrive.com

 

[htbrst]

Our pollies, bureaucrats, and general public still think that our 2nd Division is chasing Rommel across the North African desert and then the Germans out of Italy, the RNZAF units in the RAF and the Battle of the River Plate and HMNZS Achilles. That's the history they know and the mindset that they have of fighting a continental war. However they forgotten the 3rd Division that did opposed amphibious landings in the South West Pacific or the RNZN and RNZAF units fighting in the Pacific. Yet it was the Pacific War that caused NZ to collectively fill its pants in 1941 and 1942. They quickly forgot the lessons of that after 1945.

They also forget surface raiders that took some big prizes in NZ waters (partially due to censorship at the time I guess). The Rangitane was one of the biggest passenger liners to be sunk in WW2 and went down with £2 million of silver. The Niagara was sunk by mines from one of the same raiders and had £2.5 million of gold on board. I bet that's not small change in todays dollars.

 

[ngatimozart]

They also forget surface raiders that took some big prizes in NZ waters (partially due to censorship at the time I guess). The Rangitane was one of the biggest passenger liners to be sunk in WW2 and went down with £2 million of silver. The Niagara was sunk by mines from one of the same raiders and had £2.5 million of gold on board. I bet that's not small change in todays dollars.

And the German and Japanese subs in our waters.

 

[Xthenaki]

The forum has discussed in depth our defence force units and their capabilities or lack of. What about the defence of our static land assets and air space.intrusion (long range drones or aircraft at high altitude on reccie missions) .

 

[ASSAIL]

Its no accident that both the USAF and USN used the A-4 in there Aggressor Trg Squadrons.

A4s were used because of their excellent low altitude, low (relatively) speed performance.
They don’t stand a chance up high, they’re mud wrestlers. (As described to me by a RANFAA Knuck)

 

[MrConservative]

They also forget surface raiders that took some big prizes in NZ waters (partially due to censorship at the time I guess). The Rangitane was one of the biggest passenger liners to be sunk in WW2 and went down with £2 million of silver. The Niagara was sunk by mines from one of the same raiders and had £2.5 million of gold on board. I bet that's not small change in todays dollars.

In June of 1940 the HKS Orion, began laying a total of 228 mines in the eastern approaches to the Hauraki Gulf. The minefield laid down by Orion that June evening of 1940 subsequently sunk two ships - yes the RMS Niagara but also the HMS Puriri of the NZ Division. There were three more vessels that travelled though the area that night which were undetected by the Orion and slipped through the net.

These were armed merchant cruiser HMS Hector arrived at Auckland at midnight and the collier Kaimiro which docked at 12.45 a.m. The third ship that sailed through the Hauraki Gulf that evening was the cruiser the HMS Achilles three hours earlier, returning home to Devonport after a training exercise. In fact the Achilles had spent the previous two nights anchored in the Colville Channel. When you think we had just two cruisers if the Achilles had been sunk we would have been in a great deal of difficulty relying on the sole Leander.

Later on 20 August 1940 on the other side of New Zealand and prowling in the Tasman Sea the Orion opened fire on the freighter Turakina at a range of about 5250 yards crippling her before firing two torpedoes to finish her off. It was the HKS Komet that sunk the New Zealand passenger liner the RMS Rangitane on the 27th of November 1940 as it made its way into the Pacific some 500 kilometres to the north-east. The Rangitane en route to Britain with 14000 tons of food supplies, £2 million of silver bullion and 312 onboard, also included a sizable contingent of nurses. At 16630 tons it was the biggest merchant vessel sunk by any German warship during the war. Later on in November the Komet then sunk the Llytteton bound steamer the SS Holmwood off the Chatham Islands.

Other vessels sunk during this period by the Komet and Orion in the vicinity of our outer northern shipping approaches to New Zealand
were the Triaster, Triona, Triadic, Vinni, and the Komata. These ships were all heading to New Zealand with phosphate from Nauru. This loss of phosphate impacted the viability of our agricultural grasslands and made an incalculable economic loss, let alone the lives of lost crew.

Collectively the Orion and Komet sunk 20 ships during their raids into the South Western Pacific during 1940 and 1941. And guess what Raiders were also sent to sink ships in and around New Zealand in WW1 as well.

When I told my 30 something nephews this out fishing on the Gulf a few weeks back they had no idea of any of this significant history, even about the Niagara. Later got out the history books and showed them. They dropped their pennies you could say.

 

[ngatimozart]

KMS HK33 Pinguin also operated in the region as well. It captured the Norwegian whaling fleet in the sub Antarctic and operated around the Auckland Islands. Plus I think it was the ship responsible for laying the Lyttelton minefield. I haven't read the book dealing with it's southern sojourn and subsequent sinking in decades.

 

[ngatimozart]

The forum has discussed in depth our defence force units and their capabilities or lack of. What about the defence of our static land assets and air space.intrusion (long range drones or aircraft at high altitude on reccie missions) .

You cannot hide from space surveillance except by camouflage and deception, short of destroying the spaceborne capability. At present the only ones who can conduct long range over flights are those operating out of Australia which would be countries friendly to us. However if / when the PRC was to establish a PLAAF and / or PLAN base in the South West Pacific then we do have a major problem.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Well this thread escalated quickly...

 

[Rob c]

he first crash was 07 and the oil pump was installed the wrong way around after a service. IIRC it was something that could be easily enough done so a fleet wide modification was made in order to prevent this from happening again.

I wonder if the Canberra mainspar problem was because of its basing at Ohakea. I have been given to understand that the air column around the Ohakea region is rather dynamic, and that would place extra stress on the airframe. If they were based elsewhere, say Whenuapai, would have the same level of mainspar cracking occurred?

A minor correction in regard to 07, the oil pump was assembled incorrectly but installed in the engine correctly .
In regard to the Fatigue problems we have suffered with with our strike and strike trainers, this is caused by the style of our flying training and operating combined with the dynamic nature of our overall air mass caused in the main by the rugged topography and that a large amount of the airflow on to the country is unstable when it gets here, this was not confined to one area and Ohakea had the lowest amount of closures of any significant airfields in NZ. In the 1970 -80's I did quite a bit of gliding from Ohakea and can say that it was no more dynamic than other areas I flew out of , infact significantly less than say Central Otago or Hood airfield when I flew at these locations . Due to the very successful operating philosophy of combat missions at very low levels ( often 50ft) all our strike aircraft and strike trainers had fatigue issues over time except the Macchi's which we did not have nearly long enough. The Vampires were rotated over their lives through storage to keep there flying hours down so that the ones we finished with in 1972 often had less than 10 years sqdn service. The Skyhawks, after some smaller fatigue repairs in the early 1980's had their wings rebuilt in the late 80's with new spars and bottom skins . The Strikemasters where replaced earlier than originally planned in the early 90's due to fatigue problems.

 

[Xthenaki]

You cannot hide from space surveillance except by camouflage and deception, short of destroying the spaceborne capability. At present the only ones who can conduct long range over flights are those operating out of Australia which would be countries friendly to us. However if / when the PRC was to establish a PLAAF and / or PLAN base in the South West Pacific then we do have a major problem.

Thanks Ngati - Will leave home defence for another day .

 

[ngatimozart]

Thanks Ngati - Will leave home defence for another day .

No probs. Home defence is important and we do have some infrastructure and facilities that do require defending. These would include the Marsden Point oil refinery, Devenport Naval Base or its successor, Ohakea, Linton MC, and some other important facilities including the Speights brewery . We have always had the attitude that GBAD is a luxury rather than a necessity because nothing can reach us, but with today's technology that is definitely no longer the case.

During WW2 an IJN float plane launched from a submarine, overflew both Wellington and Auckland undetected on reconnaissance flights. No-one in NZ knew until after the war and the submarine's war diaries were gone through. If it had dropped a couple of bombs and killed one or two people asleep in their beds, imagine the furore. I think the NZ attitude towards defence would be different.

 

[KiwiRob]

I am very aware of PLAN capabilities and what are thought to be their intentions. The first Type 002 CV is to be launched this year with fitting out to follow and probable IOC in 2025. The Type 003 CVN project has been put on hold at the moment, possibly due to funding issues, and it is not yet known if a second Type 002 will be built. It is also not known at present what the shipboard LO aircraft will be.

Type 002 was launched in 2017, the Shandong, she reached IOC in October last year. The first catobar type 03 is due to be launched this year, there are indications that two 003's are under construction, type 004 is the CVN.

 

[Rob c]

During WW2 an IJN float plane launched from a submarine, overflew both Wellington and Auckland undetected on reconnaissance flights. No-one in NZ knew until after the war and the submarine's war diaries were gone through. If it had dropped a couple of bombs and killed one or two people asleep in their beds, imagine the furore. I think the NZ attitude towards defence would be different.

Yes, that was the government sponsored view that no body knew, but my Mother who lived in Wellington at the time and worked in the manpower office said that they went outside and could hear the aircrafts engine and that it was the topic of conversation in the office the next day , but they were taken aside later that day and warned not to talk about it. She had told dad about it after they got married during the war (late 1943 ) , so there were some who knew about it, just that it was hushed up by the government so that the great majority of the people did not know. She also said that she knew an AA gunner and that he said that they knew it was Japanese but they were ordered not to fire so as not to give away any info on the defences.

 

[Xthenaki]

No probs. Home defence is important and we do have some infrastructure and facilities that do require defending. These would include the Marsden Point oil refinery, Devenport Naval Base or its successor, Ohakea, Linton MC, and some other important facilities including the Speights brewery . We have always had the attitude that GBAD is a luxury rather than a necessity because nothing can reach us, but with today's technology that is definitely no longer the case.

During WW2 an IJN float plane launched from a submarine, overflew both Wellington and Auckland undetected on reconnaissance flights. No-one in NZ knew until after the war and the submarine's war diaries were gone through. If it had dropped a couple of bombs and killed one or two people asleep in their beds, imagine the furore. I think the NZ attitude towards defence would be different.

 

[Xthenaki]

Would be happy to volunteer to join the Speights defence reserve - imagine all the planning and discussion that would require.

Interesting WW2 history about the IJN float plane - with a potential modernised parallel emerging with the PLC.

Our media seem loathe to inform us or enter into the realities we face

 

[ngatimozart]

Type 002 was launched in 2017, the Shandong, she reached IOC in October last year. The first catobar type 03 is due to be launched this year, there are indications that two 003's are under construction, type 004 is the CVN.

If you check the classifications of the PLAN carriers, they are as follows:

• Type 001: Liaoning
• Type 001a: Shandong
• Type 2: CATOBAR CV being built at moment.
• Type 003: Planned CVN

That's the classification system that has been in use for years. The only commentator who I have seen label the Shandong as the Type 2 is H I Sutton. He is an expert in his field, but many other experts still call it the Type 001a.