Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

adroth

New Member
The RSAF provided the F16A/Bs to Thailand and the S211s+Helos to the PAF so I don't think they will not agree to a F5 request.
We acquired the S211s from the manufacturers directly, as part of a counter trade deal. Singapore was not involved in that transaction. Our S211s are new; some were even assembled in the Philippines.

The Hueys "from Singapore" were actually from the US. Singapore simply won the contract to refurbish them -- paid for by the Philippine government.
 

contedicavour

New Member
We acquired the S211s from the manufacturers directly, as part of a counter trade deal. Singapore was not involved in that transaction. Our S211s are new; some were even assembled in the Philippines.

The Hueys "from Singapore" were actually from the US. Singapore simply won the contract to refurbish them -- paid for by the Philippine government.
I confirm. The S211 came directly from the factory north-west of Milan in Italy. Btw buying the MB339s would have been better in terms of return on investment (payload, range, sensors, lead-in trainer role if one day you do get the Singapore modernized F5s with Grifo, etc). If the NZ still have them in storage, their MB339K are really good and relatively cheap to maintain.

cheers
 

adroth

New Member
I confirm. The S211 came directly from the factory north-west of Milan in Italy.
Yup. This was big news when it came out, and I still have my news clippings. The articles even detailed how the counter-trade deal involved a number of Philippine products and included, among other things, women's underwear. :D (I'm just saying what I read in the news gents . . . am not joking).

BTW, contedicavour, how did you verify this?

Btw buying the MB339s would have been better in terms of return on investment . . . If the NZ still have them in storage, their MB339K are really good and relatively cheap to maintain. cheers
Quite a number of my countrymen, who know a thing or two about defense matters, agree with your assessment. There were actually allegations of back-door deals when the PAF decided to get the S211.

This plane, and the purchase of another only-the-manufacturer-would-love vehicle: the Simba AFP, resulted in a change in the AFP's modernization guidelines. They now stipulate that a specific number of countries must already be using whatever piece of foreign gear that we buy.
 

adroth

New Member
Well, based on the flight global article, PAF will likely reactivate inoperational S211s as a first step before purchasing other trainers.
A number of the reactivated S211s are actually being converted to Close Air Support config. The Western Command of the AFP also uses S211s for low altitude photo recon missions in the Spratlys.

Here's a photo of a CAS S211, with gun and rocket pods.

 

contedicavour

New Member
Yup. This was big news when it came out, and I still have my news clippings. The articles even detailed how the counter-trade deal involved a number of Philippine products and included, among other things, women's underwear. :D (I'm just saying what I read in the news gents . . . am not joking).

BTW, contedicavour, how did you verify this?
.
I know somebody from Aermacchi (who took over Siai Marchetti ages ago) and I lived in Milan for a long while.

cheers
 

ren0312

Member
Corruption is not the only story to be had in the PAF. :flash

The fact that the service is still conducting combat operations given the budget limitations and . . . "diversion of funds" . . . is proof enough that there are people in that service who are doing their jobs.

Corruption is also not the only reason for under funding. There are a host of other government programs that are in need of funding.
I have to disagree with that, based on my calculations, the Philippine military has been underinvested relative to other areas, such as education and infrastructure such as roads, as poor as the state of the Philippine education system is relative to the rest of the world, and as inadequate as our infrastructure is, those areas of government are actully in better shape relative to the acceptable world standard, compared to our military, for example, in the case of our roads, our main cities are connected by largely paved highways, and we have four lane expressways connecting at least part of Luzon, now relative to the rest of the world, our roads are not a third world nightmare, if the state of our military is compared to these areas, you can see that the Philippine military is even worse off compared to the rest of the world than our education system or our infrastructure is, which leads to my impression that as underinvested as the Philippines is on social services, the defense sector is even more underinvested, if the state of our roads is comparable to our military, we would not even have a paved road running from Manila to Baguio or Loag, nevermind having a four lane expressway such as the North and the South Luzon expressways, the the Southern Luzon Arterial Road, this is the reason why I think the Philippine government needs to invest more money for the military, at around 2 to 2.3 per cent of GDP, or around 130 billion pesos for 2007, because as bad as the condition of our government sectors is relative to the rest of the world, the state of our military is even more pitifull, even if the other departments concerning social services are cash strapped, they still have it good relative to out armed forces.
 

ren0312

Member
The cost of operating a handful of F-16s would skew the AFP budget too much. When we retired our F-5s, it actually did wonders for the other systems. It allowed us to bring back C-130s that were in storage, and freed up funds for our Huey II program.

What we need to focus on are weapons that can be used for current threats -- both internal and external. I'd rather that we spend the money on getting more of what we have plus real maritime patrol aircraft.

At this point, smugglers and poachers are a bigger problem than PLAN muscle-flexing.

I think that with a 130 billion peso budget, the Philippine Air Force will have enough funds to purchase interim fighter aircraft such as Kfirs or Block 15 F-16's, it is all a matter of political will really, in addition to having a less leftist and populist mindset for the population, if you think that the money that will go towards increasing defense capabilities should go to social services instead, read my post about how underinvested our military is relative to other government departments, and unlike providing for national defense, which is a public good, social services by and large are private goods, so the private sector can take over even if the budget for social services is reduced, for example, if the government privatises the PGH, St. Lukes or the Asian Hospital can just buy it from the government and take over the facilities, and also provide better health care services, be it at a higher cost, and if say the government decides to reduce the role of the Department of Education to a purely regulatory body, the private sector such as the Ateneo system can take over some of the state colleges and universities such as the University of the Philippines, it is usefull to note that the United States really started to become an economic power in the 1800's, and in this time government spending on social services such as schools and health care was almost zero, and the first transcontinental railroad was built by the private sector, using private sector funds, not government funding, aside from paying for national defense and providing funds necessary in order to run the government and for law enforcement such as paying the salaries of judges and policemen, the U.S. in the 1800's, and before the Great Depression and the Great Deal really did not spend much on anything else, free public education and hospitals were provided by charitable individuals and organizations, or were maintained by religious groups and charities, with almost no government funding.
 

adroth

New Member
I have to disagree with that, based on my calculations, the Philippine military has been underinvested relative to other areas, such as education and infrastructure such as roads, as poor as the state of the Philippine education system is relative to the rest of the world, and as inadequate as our infrastructure is, those areas of government are actully in better shape relative to the acceptable world standard, compared to our military, for example, in the case of our roads, our main cities are connected by largely paved highways, and we have four lane expressways connecting at least part of Luzon, now relative to the rest of the world, our roads are not a third world nightmare, if the state of our military is compared to these areas, you can see that the Philippine military is even worse off compared to the rest of the world than our education system or our infrastructure is, which leads to my impression that as underinvested as the Philippines is on social services, the defense sector is even more underinvested, if the state of our roads is comparable to our military, we would not even have a paved road running from Manila to Baguio or Loag, nevermind having a four lane expressway such as the North and the South Luzon expressways, the the Southern Luzon Arterial Road, this is the reason why I think the Philippine government needs to invest more money for the military, at around 2 to 2.3 per cent of GDP, or around 130 billion pesos for 2007, because as bad as the condition of our government sectors is relative to the rest of the world, the state of our military is even more pitifull, even if the other departments concerning social services are cash strapped, they still have it good relative to out armed forces.
Let us not kid ourselves. We are not at the level of African countries -- but we are nowhere where we ought to be given our country's age.

Which part of the world are you comparing Philippine education and its public works system?

Which parts of the Philippine road network are you comparing to the rest of the world? Remember, there is huge part of the country that is not part of the Philippine - Japan Frendship highway. Have you been to Mindanao?

We have student-to-teacher ratios of 100 to 1 in a lot of our public schools -- and your saying that education is not under funded?

Our nurses have nurse to patient ratios of 50 to 1. Wanna guess why they're migrating in droves where people start complaining about 8 to 1 ratios?

Better spend what military budget we have wisely, and spend the rest of it addressing the root causes of the insurgency. Even Satur Ocampo accepted that the AFP was successful in decimating the communist rebellion on the battlefield. The problem was the infrastructure development required to consolidate the AFP's gains didn't happen.

We have to compare ourselves with our standing in the 50's, when we were only second to Japan in most aspects. Now we are the sick man of Asia -- even Vietnam is catching up.

If we get our economic and social act together, a viable armed forces will follow. Because by then, there'll really be something worth defending.
 
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adroth

New Member
I think that with a 130 billion peso budget, the Philippine Air Force will have enough funds to purchase interim fighter aircraft such as Kfirs or Block 15 F-16's,
There is more to modernization than acquiring weapons. The AFP must bring itself up to level where it can be modernized -- before it begins with actual modernization.

To understand this further, I urge you to visit the forum on Timawa.net. The shortcomings of the AFP have been discussed there extensively. PM me when you get there, and I can show you the threads with relevant information.

Remember: "There is no point in sprucing up the perimiter fence while the house is on fire."
 

goldenpanda

New Member
Philippines should stop pissing against China so you can get more help from us. It doesn't matter if you buy F16's or not--you cannot have deterrence against us. I don't know what your claim is in the Spratlys, but you know China settled many borders issues with Russia because we know it was in our interest. Beijing is currently dominated by "internationalists" -- they want to achieve goals through making friends. Philippines should take advantage of this situation. We have a lot of counter terrorist hardware and training. I don't know much about your communists, but why can't they be integrated into your political system? Why is there even an insurgency?
 

adroth

New Member
It doesn't matter if you buy F16's or not--you cannot have deterrence against us
Deterrence does not require a country to completely match the full range of capabilities of the aggressor. The point is make a military option so prohibitively expensive -- in terms of casualties, materiel, and political currency -- that the aggressor would not even try it.

This was the rational behind the French defense policy during the Cold War. This is currently Singapore's approach to the Chinese threat. Same goes for Taiwan.

Beijing is currently dominated by "internationalists" -- they want to achieve goals through making friends. Philippines should take advantage of this situation.
We are taking advantage of this.

Philippine-China Economic Partnership Framework
Negotiations focus on dispute resolution
By BERNIE CAHILES–MAGKILAT

http://www.mb.com.ph/issues/2006/07/09/BSNS2006070968846.html

RP, China approve defense cooperation
By Marichu Villanueva
The Philippine Star 09/03/2004

http://timawa.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=dc5a2c43ce4d106afd1f89e3c07c2958&topic=6615.0

China, Philippines, VietNam sign South China Sea agreement
Last Updated 14/03/2005, 22:58:31

http://timawa.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=dc5a2c43ce4d106afd1f89e3c07c2958&topic=2638.0

However, you can't expect us to completely trust a country that goes through extra ordinary means to suppress information about discontent in its own backyard.

I can't mention the name of the event, otherwise Chinese government firewalls may block this forum. The same way it blocks Wikipedia.

I don't know much about your communists, but why can't they be integrated into your political system?
Our communists, formally called the "National Democratic Front" have adopted a two pronged approach to attempting to overthrow the Philippine government: by military means, and by parliamentary methods.

The parliamentary arm took advantage of the 1986 Philippine constitution that permitted the creation of "party lists" that are supposed to speak for under-represented sectors of Philippine society. This is how they currently take part in the political system. Google the term "Bayan Muna" (Country First), that is one of several party-list organizations that are know communist organizations.

If they stuck with a purely political approach, there won't be a problem. But the thing is, they still conduct military operations through the New People's Army (NPA).

Why is there even an insurgency?
We are fighting a four-front insurgency. Pick one.
 
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goldenpanda

New Member
Hey thanks for the links I really learned a lot.

When I was a child in 5th grade, I had a classmate whose family came from the Philippines. I always remember him because he was quite artistic and dressed so much better than any of us. He had an electronic watch which we had never seen before. He enjoyed citing PI to great number of digits (which I know now he mostly made up!) So he gave me the impression for a long time Philippines was a very good, very modern place that we could look up to.

China has come a long way since that time. We looked very hard at where we were and where we wanted to be, and we made many painful changes. Some of these changes have not really gone as we had hoped, even though economically we're succeeding. For example we lost many of the sense of safety and innocence in our big cities. Many people live by cut-throat competition, which does not create happiness for themselves or for others.

I really hope Philippines can pick itself up again. I had not known much about your problems with Americans. You know Chinese have a lot of love for Asia--you can see it in our movies. In the end the territory problems mean nothing except passion in our heads. The current joint approach is the right one. White people can make ok partners, but the respect for Asia, our people, our life and ways, is absolutely required. Chinese tend to not want to involve with internal affairs, but I hope we can still help with the insurgency problems--but not from the self-centered perspective of USA's "war on terror".

Sorry mods this went completely off topic.
 

Rich

Member
Why doesn't the US hand over some used and not updated F16s in some ANG inventory ? It would at least preserve some air cover over the Philippines. Yes, counterinsurgency is a priority. However, who handles for instance PLAN aircrafts flying above disputed islands ? Since the closing of Subic Bay and the other US armed forces facilities, the Philippine airspace is open to whoever wants to fly over it.

cheers
Why doesn't Europe hand over its spare multi-million fighters? Subic and other bases weren't "closed". The Filipinos kicked us out during a Political wave of anti-Americanism in the early '90s. Remember Cory Aquino and her "people power"? I think Clark was wrecked by a volcano and Subic ended up being looted and destroyed by Filipinos. Since then they have had successive Governments who's cronies have continued looting the country and driving it to an economic morass, "and they dont even have America to blame anymore".

Hell, we agreed to pay 360 million for the first year, and then 203 M for the next 9 years, in order to keep Subic open and they still kicked us out. And were supposed to rain free F-16s in from the sky?? Forget it! Why should we care who overflys the Phillipines in the first place?

So, they made their bed now they can sleep in it. Pity for them because China jumped on the opportunity, and in typical Chinese fashion, poured big $$ into a communist insurgency that has gained more and more power in Filipino life and foreign/domestic policy. Forget the Islamists for a minute, The Mao'istic New Peoples Army is a significant force in the Philippines. And now? Weakened by internal strife, an economic wreck, and a military thats the running joke in the region, they must be content with whatever scraps the Chinese throw them in the Spratly riches.

I know I sound harsh, and I mean no disrespect, but the destruction of Philippines military and strategic standing has been an on-going work now for almost 20 years, and the sad thing is, it could have easily been prevented. Now with corruption endemic in their military they dont even have fighters to secure their air space, their navy is right out of a "McHails Navy" rerun, and they have destroyed much of the Yank goodwill that grew out of one of history's great alliances.

Sure we will continue to do business with them. But you'll have noticed what weapons we have sold them are those that can be used against the insurrections that plague their country. Of particular note the "Muslim" Fundamentalist one. Can you imagine those corrupt generals getting F-16s? We might as well just UPS them to Beijing and save the time. The Philippines are under Chinese influence more and more as the years go by and its going to get worse. As Mao said, "Political power comes from the barrel of a gun".
 

adroth

New Member
Why doesn't Europe hand over its spare multi-million fighters?
There are no free lunches. The US, or any other country, will only give away stuff if there is a return on investment. Think about it, Israel gets billions in aid -- even if they don't really need it. Its America's way of cozying up to countries.

In international politics, there are no friends, just common interests.

Subic ended up being looted and destroyed by Filipinos.
Correction. Local Filipinos protected Subic and kept it intact. The local mayor, who then became administrator of the Subic Free Port made sure of that -- along with scores of local volunteers who understood that it was in their city's best interest to keep Subic the way it was. It is now a very profitable export processing zone. Its one of the economic engines of central Luzon.

Clark AFB, on the other hand, was decimated by ash fall from the volcano, but it was not covered by lahar. So there were still some usable equipment left. After the dust settled, it was subsequently looted. Nevertheless, it has since become an international airport and is currently in operation as the President Diosdado Macapagal International Airport.

The Philippines are under Chinese influence more and more as the years go by and its going to get worse. As Mao said, "Political power comes from the barrel of a gun".
Both Chinese as well as AMERICAN influence abound in the Philippines. Countries with money will always exert influence on those that don't.

Its a global economy Rich. Remember, the US economy is partly kept up by Chinese investment in your securities.

Now are you guys ready to go back to topic?
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I can understand and support the Philippines' need to concentrate its resources on counter insurgency operations. However, to lose an air combat capability that took years to develop seems to be a very dangerous step to take. I would just like to see a small force to maintain the skills of Philippines AF fighter pilots. Once the capability is lost it could take decades to re-establish it. As suggested by others the ideal aircraft would be a comparatively simple fighter bomber, perhaps based on an advanced trainer, which can maintain air combat skills and double as a COIN aircraft. I think something along the lines of the BAE Hawk would be ideal.

Cheers
 

adroth

New Member
I can understand and support the Philippines' need to concentrate its resources on counter insurgency operations. However, to lose an air combat capability that took years to develop seems to be a very dangerous step to take. I would just like to see a small force to maintain the skills of Philippines AF fighter pilots. Once the capability is lost it could take decades to re-establish it. As suggested by others the ideal aircraft would be a comparatively simple fighter bomber, perhaps based on an advanced trainer, which can maintain air combat skills and double as a COIN aircraft. I think something along the lines of the BAE Hawk would be ideal.

Cheers
We definitely share your concerns Tas.

Happily, we still have our S211s to keep our fighter pilots busy. Some are currently being used for training duty, while others are being used in the close air support role.
 
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