Worst Commanders in History

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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Okay Future Tank
You and I have different perspectives on Mother Russia`s past during the Great Patriotic War, so be it I respect your perspectives on some of the issues that we discussed.

In regards to the Chechny conflict - estimated figures that I gave you on tank losses are for the entire conflict, your estimates are more close to T-80 tank losses alone. The numbers for the T-72 were quite high, they even changed the nomenclature name for the tank. My information came from the military, you should be able to access this information by now.

In regards to the Mongols - Did this not go against the way that Chinggis conquered countries, they pretty much were set up like traveling nomads, they would steal and kill what they could and moved on. Exception being the Tatar Tribe who pretty much set up camp in China.
 
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Francis

New Member
So how many T-34-85s were produced in World War 2 and why were they so important in the eastern Front ?
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Francis said:
So how many T-34-85s were produced in World War 2 and why were they so important in the eastern Front ?
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Close to 24,000 of them.
Biggest advantage was that it could take on a tiger and panther at a frontal range of 1000 meters.
 
E

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Francis said:
true The Wehrmacht did make it to Russia but was the success really because of Hitler or was it because of Erich von Manstein ?
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I being sarcastic, Hilter made a mistake by going into Russia.
General Manstien was a good commander.
 
icelord

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The problem with Hitler was he was an armchair General with no tactical experience other then running letters to officers in WW1, yet he controlled an entire army through a 6 year war.
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
eckherl said:
Okay Future Tank
You and I have different perspectives on Mother Russia`s past during the Great Patriotic War, so be it I respect your perspectives on some of the issues that we discussed.

In regards to the Chechny conflict - estimated figures that I gave you on tank losses are for the entire conflict, your estimates are more close to T-80 tank losses alone. The numbers for the T-72 were quite high, they even changed the nomenclature name for the tank. My information came from the military, you should be able to access this information by now.

In regards to the Mongols - Did this not go against the way that Chinggis conquered countries, they pretty much were set up like traveling nomads, they would steal and kill what they could and moved on. Exception being the Tatar Tribe who pretty much set up camp in China.
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Eckherl,

I'm sorry, but I find your statements ambiguous, and so its difficult to continue discussion.

My perspective of WW2 is based on dispassionate analysis of a historian and expereince of my family.
Based on both I think Waffen SS is GROSSLY over-rated. Aside from that they were traitors to their countries, and criminals for supporting a regime which was homocidal.

In regards to Chechnya I gave correct figures. The figures come from Russian assessment of the battle. There was only one battle where a large number of tanks was lost. I don't know what 'military' your information comes from, but if you want to provide a source it would clear up the difference in data provided.

I find your idea about Mongols and Tartars very simplistic, and lacking perspective.

Please don't take this personally ok.

I'm just curious, what is your field of expertise?
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
icelord said:
The problem with Hitler was he was an armchair General with no tactical experience other then running letters to officers in WW1, yet he controlled an entire army through a 6 year war.
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Hmmm...and how much tactical expereince did Dwight David Eisenhower have?

Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill had tactical expereince, but that dated from the Boer War as a junior cavalry officer.

Stalin proved fairly incompetent during the Civil War as a commissar, but apparently was instrumental in rallying Bolshevik troops on a couple of occasions.
 
B

Big-E

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #95
Francis said:
Was Hitler one of the worst commanders in history?
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He has been one of the worst CINCs in the history of modern warefare. He started the war too early, he didn't listen to his generals and failed to realize what technology was for. His failures as a military leader and as a strategic tactician are what cost him the war. Germany had such an edge in all fields, they had the scientists to build a nuclear bomb yet did nothing to keep them from fleeing the country, he had the first jet combat aircraft yet used it for night bombing and probably most importantly invaded more territory than he could hold, ie USSR.
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Based on both I think Waffen SS is GROSSLY over-rated.
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I do believe it is Stephen Ambrose in his excellent "Pegasus Bridge: D-Day", is eager to point out that although Nazi propoganda obviously went to great lengths to portray the Waffen SS as the most superior warriors in Europe, their combat performance at times left a little to be desired, especially late in the war. Indeed, regular Whermacht Heer Divisions such as the Gross Deutschland often had far better combat performance records.

Ambrose goes on to state that in his opinion, Waffen SS troops had little over their allied counterparts - especially elite/veteran formations like the US 101st/82nd Divisions or the UK Parachute Battalions.

As for Hitler being a bad commander, perhaps more to the point is that despite having some very able Generals and Field Marshals, very few of them tended to ever dispute their commander-in-chief no matter how rediculous the order. Jodl, Keitel and Paulus are obvious examples of this latent manner that could derive from flaws within the Prussian Officer Corps psyche. But Correlli Barnett's "Hitler's Generals" is repleat with other examples of truly highly capable field commanders like Guderian, Manstein and Rommel all failing to stand their ground despite clearly recognising the dubiousness of the order at hand.
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
Izzy1 said:
As for Hitler being a bad commander
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Speaking from dispassionate historical perspective I would like to point out that Commander in Chief or the like are political titles. I for one would not have the loud-mouthed Austrian p****'s name on the same page as many of his professional generals, never mind lower ranking field officers who actually got shot at.
The one time he made it to the front he completely panicked because Soviet tanks were 60km away and gave Manstein full authority to do whatever he wanted, and bugged out on a plane.:D
 
E

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FutureTank said:
Eckherl,

I'm sorry, but I find your statements ambiguous, and so its difficult to continue discussion.

My perspective of WW2 is based on dispassionate analysis of a historian and expereince of my family.
Based on both I think Waffen SS is GROSSLY over-rated. Aside from that they were traitors to their countries, and criminals for supporting a regime which was homocidal.

In regards to Chechnya I gave correct figures. The figures come from Russian assessment of the battle. There was only one battle where a large number of tanks was lost. I don't know what 'military' your information comes from, but if you want to provide a source it would clear up the difference in data provided.

I find your idea about Mongols and Tartars very simplistic, and lacking perspective.

Please don't take this personally ok.

I'm just curious, what is your field of expertise?
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Not a problem - I have alot of issues with your responses also, I just don`t care to give everyone a long drawn out history lesson like you try to do.

In Regards to Chechnya - you did not give the correct figures, that I know.

As far as my comments with the Mongols - If you decide to start a topic in regards to him we can have that chit chat at that time.


My field of expertise is in the armor field, retired master gunner. I am still waiting to here how crappy my countries battle tank is and how Australia got a bum deal.

Just curious - what is your field of expertise.
As far as this topic goes, I dont care to continue it with you either, we have gotten way off course here.

P.S your figures on the t-34/85 are not correct also.
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
eckherl said:
Not a problem - I have alot of issues with your responses also, I just don`t care to give everyone a long drawn out history lesson like you try to do..
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I also don't care to go into long drawn out history lessons. The problem is though that as soon as something is said, it can be taken to be truth, and it isn't. Since this thread is very much about history, I feel that it is appropriate to ensure that record is set straight.

eckherl said:
In Regards to Chechnya - you did not give the correct figures, that I know..
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If I didn't give correct figures, then why not correct me? If you do correct me, please provide source.

eckherl said:
As far as my comments with the Mongols - If you decide to start a topic in regards to him we can have that chit chat at that time..
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We need not go far. Chengis Khan faced many commanders in his time, and while he is considered one of the best in history, one of his opponents may be one of the worst.
However I belive somewhat controversially that Chengis Khan was in fact THE worst commander in history.:)

eckherl said:
My field of expertise is in the armor field, retired master gunner. I am still waiting to here how crappy my countries battle tank is and how Australia got a bum deal..
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This is not the thread to discuss the relative merits of the M1. FURTHER me saying anything here will not change the acceptance of the M1 into Australian service. My big problem with M1 NOW is that effectively Australia doesn't have an APC/IFV to go with it, and will not have one for abother 6-9 years. What this means is that the two vehicles when they are operating together will have different life of type cycles. Aside from this, the AIM version we got is already out of date because US fleet is being upgraded to SAP. And of course you are aware of the limited choice in ammo, though I belive this will be rectified in the next FY?

eckherl said:
Just curious - what is your field of expertise.
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My field of expertise is not to be an expert :)
I look for general patterns in things to find structural understanding in systems and develop analysis that can explain nature of of weakness in these systems and structures based on the patterns.
I also like AFVs. Its a recent thing when I realised that while most people are writing tanks off and putting wheeles on infantry vehicles, in fact the future is very bright for tanks and heavier IFVs, though unfortunatelly this means it will be less bright for humanity. I am also fascinated with solving some of the current design quandries to advance the IFV design into its next evolutionary phase. Its not a fascination with technology, but a desire to save lives of my fellow Australians who would go into battle. Hopefully the design advance will allow even average officers to become great :)
There, we are back to the topic of the thread

BTW, we are discussing gunnery in another thread, and a gentleman from Germany assures me that a tank can these days shoot a helicopter out of the sky thanks to the new generation of FCS. Would you agree with this?

eckherl said:
P.S your figures on the t-34/85 are not correct also.
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Again, if you feel you have better figures, you are welcome to provide them with the source. The question asked how many were produced in WW2, and the figure I provided was total production to May 1945. The T-34-85 remined in production until 1949 I think, though the last year saw only 300 made. Probably your figure of 24,000 reflected the total production?
 
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