Worst Commanders in History

FutureTank

Banned Member
What about Bush1?
Yes, he was in combat, but way before he went into politics.

I'm just trying to point out that in discussion of military command, the word military suggests a profession at the time of it's performance. Bush 2 also had a military rank which he had to relinquish.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I think your about an age to short to blame this as the downfall of the Mongol empire.
The first documented record of artillery with gunpowder used on the battle field is on January 28, 1132. General Han Shizhong of the Song Dynasty used escalade and artillery to capture a city in Fujian from the Mongols.

Ghengis Khan united the Mongol tribes and founded the Mongol Empire (Yeke Mongol Ulus) during 1206–1368

(1368-1132=268)

In Europe, 1320s references to firearms begin to become reliable. Guns of some sort were definately used at Metz in 1324, and a Florentine document dated 1326 makes use for the first time of the word "cannon," deriving from the Latin "canna," meaning "reed," an obvious reference to the tubular construction of such devices.

(1324+268=1592)

By 1592 Europe had matchlock fusils and field artillery, and first regular army units.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #124
The first documented record of artillery with gunpowder used on the battle field is on January 28, 1132. General Han Shizhong of the Song Dynasty used escalade and artillery to capture a city in Fujian from the Mongols.

Ghengis Khan united the Mongol tribes and founded the Mongol Empire (Yeke Mongol Ulus) during 1206–1368

(1368-1132=268)

In Europe, 1320s references to firearms begin to become reliable. Guns of some sort were definately used at Metz in 1324, and a Florentine document dated 1326 makes use for the first time of the word "cannon," deriving from the Latin "canna," meaning "reed," an obvious reference to the tubular construction of such devices.

(1324+268=1592)

By 1592 Europe had matchlock fusils and field artillery, and first regular army units.
You are asking the leader of the Mongols, a nomadic horse archer society to convert to conventional field armies before a time they were even concieved. The man died in 1227, long before gunpowder was an effective weapon. As I stated before every firearm before the arquebus was worthless compared to the bow. The Mongols had no need for siege artillery as storming walls was not their style. The need to penatrate the armor of the Chivalaric knights was the cause for firearms, the Mongols didn't hang around long enough to face this threat for long. Their own internal decension due to Chinese influence is what destroyed them.
 

rrrtx

New Member
I might point out that until 'peacefull penetration' there were no better tactic to adapt for the Allies. This was the only tactic designed to overcome advances in German defensive trench systems.
The human wave attack following massive bombardment was used for much of the war. There was innovation towards the end - tanks and the German storm troops for example. But for most of the war the same tactics were used usually with the same results - minimal territorial gains and horrific casualties.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
@ Futertank

after conferring with other people on the issue in regards to the Mongols, including a college world history professor, I will eat humble pie and state that you were right in regards to the Mongols taking all of Russia.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #127
@ Futertank

after conferring with other people on the issue in regards to the Mongols, including a college world history professor, I will eat humble pie and state that you were right in regards to the Mongols taking all of Russia.
They sure did, check out the Golden Horde of Batu.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
You are asking the leader of the Mongols, a nomadic horse archer society to convert to conventional field armies before a time they were even conceived. .
No, I wasn't saying that. Just illustrating that this was the outcome because training with firing firearms in the initial adoption as lighter weapons required professional soldiers.

The man died in 1227, long before gunpowder was an effective weapon. As I stated before every firearm before the arquebus was worthless compared to the bow. .
95 years passed since the Chinese so effectively used gunpowder weapons against Mongols. One application Chinese had was rockets, which by the year 1045CE, 21 years before William the Conqueror would land on the shores of England, the use of gunpowder and rockets formed an integral aspect of Chinese military tactics. From http://www.solarviews.com/eng/rocket.htm

For sure the failure of developing gunpowder weapons is not solely Mongol, or Genghis Khan's, but considering he was a military leader of Imperial proportions, and therefore should have had the interest in military technology, his failure to appreciate technology that had existed for two and a half centuries before his birth is very apparent to me. However recognise my European bias for technological development.
The Mongols had no need for siege artillery as storming walls was not their style.
Well, they certainly conducted quite a few sieges :) They DID bring Chinese 'artillery' along in their train.

The need to penetrate the armour of the Chivalric knights was the cause for firearms; the Mongols didn't hang around long enough to face this threat for long. .
There was a confluence of development in Europe that did not take place in Asia. As the missile weapons proliferated, greater amounts of armour were worn and more armour-defeating missile weapons were designed, e.g. the crossbow. The crossbows at one time became quite large to enable a larger bolt/range, but at some stage someone had the bright idea that a small cannon ball was just as good as a large arrow head. Probably when a stray cannon ball took some knight's head off.

It is the failure to innovate, but rather retain technology and methods used for centuries that eventually made Mongols ineffective (they are still around).

Their own internal dissension due to Chinese influence is what destroyed them.
For sure! I didn't mean to infer that there were no OTHER reasons for their downfall, but was looking at the issue in the narrow sense of military significance, and more specifically the effect of a lack of insight and foresight by military leaders.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #129
I don't see much in your statements that justify Ghengis Khan being called the worst commander in history. There is no way a 12th century nomadic Mongol can be expected to see gunpowder as the wave of the future. It took hardline urban Europeans several centuries to finally figure this out.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
@ FutureTank

Here are some numbers for the T-34/85 from 1944 and 45, these are not taking into count the 300 manufatured at the end of 1943.
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/T34_85/t34_85_1.htmlclose[/url]
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I don't see much in your statements that justify Ghengis Khan being called the worst commander in history. There is no way a 12th century nomadic Mongol can be expected to see gunpowder as the wave of the future. It took hardline urban Europeans several centuries to finally figure this out.
Ok. Just wanted to see what kind of arguments I would get back :)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
@ FutureTank

Here are some numbers for the T-34/85 from 1944 and 45, these are not taking into count the 300 manufatured at the end of 1943.
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/T34_85/t34_85_1.htmlclose[/url]
Yes, these are from same source. The difference is for 543 T-34-85s manufacured with a non-standard gun (D-5T). The rest are command tanks and flame-thrower tanks. I didn't count these because they were not really used in combat with tanks. So the total if you like is 22609.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, these are from same source. The difference is for 543 T-34-85s manufacured with a non-standard gun (D-5T). The rest are command tanks and flame-thrower tanks. I didn't count these because they were not really used in combat with tanks. So the total if you like is 22609.
Oh come on now - how about if we call that one a draw.:)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Oh come on now - how about if we call that one a draw.:)
A draw? I wasn't aware it was a competition. Someone wanted figures for T-34-85, and I provided exact figures for the standard production model. I admit your correction is the more correct figure since the non-standard model was substantial.
If you like, YOU WIN eckherl :)
Must be your master gunner instinct ;)
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A draw? I wasn't aware it was a competition. Someone wanted figures for T-34-85, and I provided exact figures for the standard production model. I admit your correction is the more correct figure since the non-standard model was substantial.
If you like, YOU WIN eckherl :)
Must be your master gunner instinct ;)
Well you have to admit that command tanks and flame thrower tanks are used in combat. Geepers I think I would rather take a flank shot from a sabot round rather than get burned alive like that, at least with sabot hopefully it will be over quickly.:)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Well you have to admit that command tanks and flame thrower tanks are used in combat. Geepers I think I would rather take a flank shot from a sabot round rather than get burned alive like that, at least with sabot hopefully it will be over quickly.:)
Sure. However these did not really add anything new to the battle, and I doubt you would want to be in a flamethrower tank facing a Panther ;)

The command tanks actually did have ammo, but due to second radio it was a very limited amount (can't rememebr off the top of my head).
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sure. However these did not really add anything new to the battle, and I doubt you would want to be in a flamethrower tank facing a Panther ;)

The command tanks actually did have ammo, but due to second radio it was a very limited amount (can't rememebr off the top of my head).
I believe the T-34/85 carried 60 maingun rounds, on the command versions didn`t they further eliminate some of the machine gun ammunition holders at the back of turret to comphensate for the additional radio.
 

LancerMc

New Member
I looked up the actual amount of ammunition carried by a T34/85 varried from 54-60 depending on the model. Though my source didn't specificy if or any variant was a command tank.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I looked up the actual amount of ammunition carried by a T34/85 varried from 54-60 depending on the model. Though my source didn't specificy if or any variant was a command tank.
Thanks for the information.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I believe the T-34/85 carried 60 maingun rounds, on the command versions didn`t they further eliminate some of the machine gun ammunition holders at the back of turret to comphensate for the additional radio.
Yes, that's quite right. However what many crews did (including command crews) was to lay some ammo on the floor between some welded bolts under the loader station. The reason is that in a T-34 the spent casings dropped to the floor of the fighting compartment, and you don't want to be a loader dancing around all the spent cases :)
I'm sure you can explain it much better then I :)
 
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