F-35 Program - General Discussion

[John Fedup]

I made this post in the ME security thread as well.

A rather disturbing article (if reasonably accurate) about F-35 vulnerability during the recent Iranian strike mission. Again, if true, the suggestion for "digital stealth" at the end of the article is probably already underway.

Was an Israeli F-35 Shot Down By Iranian Radar? - Warrior Maven

 

[wild_Willie2]

Clickbait based purely on anectodical hearsay. Just look at the pure nonsense title of the article, .

 

[StobieWan]

not what I'd describe as a credible or quality argument, seems to at least cite some recurrent disinformation being pinged around on social media

 

[Terran]

I am not an expert, I am an enthusiast. However I know enough to question the claims with these points.
1) if the Iranians had a lock why did they not shoot? The Iranians have no qualms about shooting at Israel and there actions of the last couple years are more than enough for a war. So might as well shoot. But we know that didn’t make any kills despite taking losses themselves.
2) The claim is that the F35s dropped their weapons prematurely due to the threat. Did they? Because it seems they hit their targets. The whole point of air defenses is to prevent just that from happening. So if F35s landed kills on targets then even if the Iranians did see them coming it wasn’t a successful deterrence of the attack.
3) On if they saw them or not we come to the “anti stealth kill chain”. The Russians and Chinese have been trying to sell “anti stealth” for decades now. At the heart of that is these long wavelength radar systems. These are often compared to ww2 radars that operated on similar bandwidth. What the Fanboi who promote these as the Silver bullets against stealth forget is they were abandoned for use in air defenses for a reason. They can see something but that can’t tell what it is with the resolution to target it. It’s at best an Early Warning System but it can’t tell what it’s looking at. Be it a Flock of birds, a formation of F35 or the last son of Krypton.
It’s like having Mr. Magoo as your spotter.
That’s why the systems still have to move to X band radars, the same X band radars in the nose of fighters and the attack radars of SAM Systems. Those however are the same radars that F35 is optimized against. In hopes that the LWB can direct the X band into the right position to make a track. But even if that happens a track isn’t a target lock.

The single case where an actual Stealth was shot down was the F117 Vega 31. That aircraft was tracked for dozens of miles but the SAM system wasn’t able to lock until the missile door opened and jammed with the Night Hawk at less than a dozen miles from the launcher. And that’s the absolute truth.
F35 is far, far more advanced than F117 and farther includes features F117 wished it had like its own Passive and active electronic warfare systems that map and warn pilots of threats specifically to prevent a repeat of Vega 31. Where F117 was a void in the air blind and deaf to any threats on a mission plan that was fundamentally flawed by reused entry and egress . F35 has all the data one could possibly want save for next week’s Powerball numbers.


Frankly this seems copium from the usual suspects of Eurasian times and proKremlin media echoing in to western media primarily via the whole Military Industrial Complex theorists community.

 

[Bob53]

Elon musk is saying F35s are redundant and he will be in charge of pentagon cost cutting.

 

[KRAKATOA]

Elon musk is saying F35s are redundant and he will be in charge of pentagon cost cutting.

Unmanned craft will have unparallelled speed and manouverability, but the F35 program is a diplomatic asset, the F35 platform and accompanying network domain comes with vendor lock and exporting F35's is a source of revenue. He's not going to cut on the F35.

 

[Terran]

Will if they can ever work out the

Elon musk is saying F35s are redundant and he will be in charge of pentagon cost cutting.

Elon managed to pull some impressive stuff but he’s not alway right.
Elon’s exactly statement was.

x.com

x.com

The problem with this statement is it’s very shortsighted. Issues of EW, range and payload are stacked against the small cheap drones.
EW is improving and counters are being developed even crude ones that can disrupt the control systems of these drones that were designed and developed for hobbyists, delivery and Camera use. It’s akin to the GPS systems. Very early on American sourced GPS systems were very effective but the Russians started blasting GPS guidance jamming.
adding a fiber optic cable or hardening the systems control and or Communications system adds cost taking a $200 drone up to A cost point where it’s on par with ATGMs. Reducing the swarm and attrition capability. Farther you have counter air and counter drone kinetic capabilities that can then come in farther reducing efficiency. This would shift small UAS back to close range support ISR and use case replicating existing systems.

On range these cheap drones were meant to be LOS and are battery powered that limits their range. A swarm of Kamikazi quad copters is frightening if they take off from the next hill or a few miles away but they are a joke if they take off from the Chinese mainland and try and cross the strait of Taiwan. They can’t project power. They are a tactical weapon.
larger system like the Shahad are just low end cruise missiles and the larger drones are replicating capabilities of existing AirPower with the same requirements of range and support as manned aircraft.

Payload comes in too. Well a cheap drone can carry and kill even a tank its payload is basically built off a tactical system a hand grenade will only take a couple of soldiers, a larger warhead is replicating an ATGM with similar restrictions on effectiveness. Manned fighters like F35 can carry significant payloads of ordnance capable of eliminating whole units in a single go.

Unmanned craft will have unparallelled speed and manouverability, but the F35 program is a diplomatic asset, the F35 platform and accompanying network domain comes with vendor lock and exporting F35's is a source of revenue. He's not going to cut on the F35.

will have if they can go full autonomous. The problem is that requires a larger heavier drone with very high end computing and programming beyond where we are.
Right now we are in Human In the loop systems. With only Human out of the loop system in testing and almost everyone in the development cycle weary of giving HOOL drones the responsibility to proverbially pull their own triggers.
This means that have to transmit their data real time which brings in other restrictions and or assets. In restrictions if the drone fighter has to make an attack it has to call home and ask. That means either a LOS datalink meaning a manned platform in the air range of said datalink or satellite communication which requires a dish and that the dish and satellite are aligned. This is why many drones have a bulbous hump where a cockpit would be on a manned aircraft to maintain signal the drone has to maintain alignment if it shakes the wrong way it can loose signal and go stupid.

 

[seaspear]

This article goes into the capability for expeditionary landing surfaces for the F35 and other aircraft as demonstrated at RAAF Tindal

Australian F-35 Tests Expeditionary Base Concept

Dura-Base matting can be used for air base repairs as well as for helping establish austere operating locations across the Pacific. Dura-Base matting can be used for air base repairs as well as for helping establish austere operating locations across the Pacific.

www.twz.com

 

[swerve]

The single case where an actual Stealth was shot down was the F117 Vega 31. That aircraft was tracked for dozens of miles but the SAM system wasn’t able to lock until the missile door opened and jammed with the Night Hawk at less than a dozen miles from the launcher.

And from what I read, the Serbs had done a lot of work in advance to set that up. They knew the take off times of F-117s (there were people outside the one F-117 base reporting them), & had worked out from partial tracks that they were following a fixed route, avoiding Serbian AD radars & missiles. So they put radars & missile launchers along that route but didn't switch on the radars until they knew an F-117 should be overhead.

 

[seaspear]

The f35 program is set to include Bright Cloud a U.K development that the U.S has ordered two thousand units of

 

[Terran]

And from what I read, the Serbs had done a lot of work in advance to set that up. They knew the take off times of F-117s (there were people outside the one F-117 base reporting them), & had worked out from partial tracks that they were following a fixed route, avoiding Serbian AD radars & missiles. So they put radars & missile launchers along that route but didn't switch on the radars until they knew an F-117 should be overhead.

They were also aware that the EW escort the EA6 prowler that flew to assist due to that fixed route were grounded. Which allowed the SAM system commander to be bolder and keep the radar on longer as he wasn’t afraid of getting a HARM rammed down his throat.

Which again makes me wonder on this claim made of the Iranians “locking” Israeli F35. As the only way to accomplish it I could see is if the Israelis screwed up the whole thing and flew F35 either in external carry or well wearing radar reflectors. The Iranians accomplished the intelligence coup if the decade and got a copy of the mission plan. Or some sci-fi level technology breakthrough on their end that renders stealth null and void but also is apparently unable to defeat the weapons it brings?

 

[John Fedup]

A unique F-35A has been created. Recovering one jet from two damaged ones for $11m, has to be the best cost news for the program to date, certainly better than a $160m loss.

‘Franken-Lightning,’ Rebuilt From Two Damaged F-35s, Is Now Fully Operational - The Aviationist

 

[MARKMILES77]

Australian and New Zealand Defender is reporting that U.S. DOD budget request states that the APG-85 radar, which is a vital component of the F-35 Block 4 Upgrade, is not available to foreign customers. This will apply for at least the next few years.
What is not specified in the document, is whether this a temporary ban, perhaps related to production problems,or designed to preserve a technological advantage for the U.S.? Perhaps a version of the new administration only offering "dumbed down variants" to foreign customers because "they might be our enemies in the future".
If it is a case of the latter, then GCAP and FCAS may get a huge boost!






The article is paywalled.

Australian & NZ Defender Australia's leading defence news and military history reporting

www.australiandefender.com.au

 

[John Fedup]

LM, after losing NGAD, is now hyping a mega F-35 upgrade that will offer 80% of the F-47's performance at 60% of the F-47's cost. Optimistic for sure but what exactly do these percentages mean when the F-47 actually rolls off a production line? Both LM and Boeing over promise on performance and price. Certainly a reasonable move for LM and not contesting the NGAD award was a very wise move.

Giving F-35 "NASCAR Upgrade" Can Deliver 80% Of F-47 Capabilities At Half Cost: Lockheed

 

[Terran]

LM, after losing NGAD, is now hyping a mega F-35 upgrade that will offer 80% of the F-47's performance at 60% of the F-47's cost. Optimistic for sure but what exactly do these percentages mean when the F-47 actually rolls off a production line? Both LM and Boeing over promise on performance and price. Certainly a reasonable move for LM and not contesting the NGAD award was a very wise move.

Giving F-35 "NASCAR Upgrade" Can Deliver 80% Of F-47 Capabilities At Half Cost: Lockheed

F57 isn’t supposed to replace F35 so F35 would be the USAF “Low” to F22/F47’s high. As such the upgrade makes sense. Farther not everyone is likely to use F35 with a high end fighter so much like how F16 is used you would have some users who make do with F35 as their Air defense fighter.
it’s generally expected F47 will have new engines based off Adaptive cycle technology, improved self defense counter measures, AI integration and a whole new suite of weapons systems. Degrees of that could be forked back into F35 as it’s likely that F47 will roll out with technology forked from F35 which itself was designed with technology forked from F22.