China - Geostrategic & Geopolitical.

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member

It seems that the protesters have won.

People with Covid can now isolate at home rather than in state facilities if they have mild or no symptoms. They also no longer need to show tests for most venues, and can travel more freely inside the country.

It would be an incredible coincidence if these significant changes were made with no influence from the protests. The issue now is whether the Chinese healthcare system will cope with the inevitable increase in cases.
 

weaponwh

Member

It seems that the protesters have won.

People with Covid can now isolate at home rather than in state facilities if they have mild or no symptoms. They also no longer need to show tests for most venues, and can travel more freely inside the country.

It would be an incredible coincidence if these significant changes were made with no influence from the protests. The issue now is whether the Chinese healthcare system will cope with the inevitable increase in cases.
abandon zero covid was always their plan, but with protest, they accelerate the plan. the issue is if they open too fast, they gonna have alot covid death. there were some article indicate if china is not prepared and open too fast, approx 1 to 2 millions could die.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
abandon zero covid was always their plan, but with protest, they accelerate the plan. the issue is if they open too fast, they gonna have alot covid death. there were some article indicate if china is not prepared and open too fast, approx 1 to 2 millions could die.
If abandoning zero covid was always the plan, why have they scaled back vaccination? Why aren't they giving boosters to older people? That's just a small sample of their policies which are incompatible with abandoning zero covid.

Experts who expressed doubts about the long-term viability of zero covid have been sidelined, forced to retire early, & so on. Where is the preparation for abandoning zero covid? China seems to have been going in the opposite direction.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This is summarise problem for any emerging nation including India on replacing China end to end internal production chain. Something that need to be build on decades. Western media focus much on Covid restriction. However signs already shown China relaxing.


When this kind of comment coming from Chinese health officials, this shown China trend on relaxing is getting traction.

Back to effort for other emerging economies attracting relocations, and become another China, there are two things to consider:

1. Western and East Asian OEM tendencies to spread their production chain (if they have to relocate from China). Thus whatever India trying to sell as alternatives, so far even some in Indian market think they will not get more relocations even compared to Vietnam.

2. China own OEM already maturing, thus means China with mostly their own OEM can maintain their production value chain competitiveness if its need be.

Something why even US OEM will not leave China entirely despite Washington dream.
 

swerve

Super Moderator

This is summarise problem for any emerging nation including India on replacing China end to end internal production chain. Something that need to be build on decades. ...
No one country needs to replace China's end to end supply chain within its own borders. There are alternative sources of just about everything.

Note that even China imports components of many goods.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
that even China imports components of many goods.
China import mostly raw materials to construct the components within their supply chains. Yes they are importing some components, however it is relatively smaller scales compares to others supply chains.

The points on that article is Indian ambitions or others to replace or become another China is going to be very difficult. Others will be hard challenging to replicate what China already build so far in term of creating domestic production supply chains.

This is actually more directed to Indian ambition.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
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This is summarise problem for any emerging nation including India on replacing China end to end internal production chain. Something that need to be build on decades. Western media focus much on Covid restriction. However signs already shown China relaxing.
There are problems setting up in India according to this article Why India Can’t Replace China. Unfortunately it's paywalled.

"Announcements of new projects (as measured by the Center for the Monitoring of the Indian Economy) have again fallen off after a brief post-pandemic rebound, remaining far below the levels achieved during the boom in the early years of this century. Even more striking, there is not much evidence that foreign firms are relocating production to India. Despite all the talk about India as the investment destination of choice, overall foreign direct investment has stagnated for the past decade, remaining around two percent of GDP. For every firm that has embraced the India opportunity, many more have had unsuccessful experiences in India, including Google, Walmart, Vodafone, and General Motors. Even Amazon has struggled, announcing in late November that it was shutting three of its Indian ventures, in fields as diverse as food delivery, education, and wholesale e-commerce.
"Why are global firms reluctant to shift their China operations to India? For the same reason that domestic firms are reluctant to invest: because the risks remain far too high.
"Of the many risks to investing in India, two are particularly important. First, firms still lack the confidence that the policies in place when they invest will not be changed later, in ways that render their investments unprofitable. And even if the policy framework remains attractive on paper, firms cannot be sure that rules will be enforced impartially rather than in favor of “national champions”—the giant Indian conglomerates that the government has favored.
"These problems have already had serious consequences. Telecom firms have seen their profits devastated by shifting policies. Energy providers have had difficulty passing on cost increases to consumers and collecting promised revenues from the State Electricity Boards. E-commerce firms have discovered that government rulings about allowable practices can be reversed after they have made large investments according to the original rules."​

Most of us are familiar with Indian Defence procurement and the Indian govt's "Make in India" policy. We are also familiar with HAL which is govt owned and the stranglehold that it has on Indian aircraft manufacturing, much to the detriment of Indian military aviation across the three services. It's always very late, well below spec, poor quality, and well over budget. Then there's the bureaucracy that only the Indians can achieve.

"At the same time, national champions have prospered mightily. As of August 2022, nearly 80 percent of the $160 billion year-to-date increase in India’s stock market capitalization was accounted for by just one conglomerate, the Adani Group, whose founder has suddenly become the third richest person in the world. In other words, the playing field is tilted.
"Nor can foreign firms reduce their risks by partnering with large domestic firms. Going into business with national champions is risky, as these groups are themselves seeking to dominate the same lucrative fields, such as e-commerce. And other domestic firms have no wish to tread in sectors dominated by groups that have received extensive regulatory favors from the government. ...
"India faces three major obstacles in its quest to become “the next China”: investment risks are too big, policy inwardness is too strong, and macroeconomic imbalances are too large. These obstacles need to be removed before global firms will invest, since they do have other alternatives. They can bring their operations back to ASEAN, which served as the world’s factory floor before that role shifted to China. They can bring them back home to advanced countries, which played that role before ASEAN countries. Or they can maintain them in China, accepting the risks on the grounds that the Indian alternative is no better."

There is also the domestic Indian economy which doesn't have the burgeoning middle class that the PRC has.

"India’s market of middle-class consumers remains surprisingly small—no more than $500 billion compared with a global market of some $30 trillion, according to a study by Shoumitro Chatterjee and one of us (Subramanian). Only 15 percent of the population can be considered middle class according to international definitions, while the rich who account for a large share of GDP tend to save a large share of their earnings. Both factors reduce middle-class consumption. For most firms, the risks of doing business in India outweigh the potential rewards."​

However, I cannot see the Indian govt undertaking any structural and systemic reforms because there are far to many vested interests involved and it still has the Hindu brahmin class system which is embedded within the society.

"If the Indian authorities are willing to change course and remove the obstacles to investment and growth, the rosy pronouncements of pundits could indeed come true. If not, however, India will continue to muddle along, with parts of the economy doing well but the country as a whole failing to reach its potential.
"Indian policymakers may be tempted into believing that the decline of China ordains the dizzy resurgence of India. But, in the end, whether or not India turns into the next China is not merely a question of global economic forces or geopolitics. It is something that will require a dramatic policy shift by New Delhi itself. "​

I don't know if India will change all that much in the short to medium term because I think that the current structural model is now firmly embedded within the Indian culture. The English have a lot to answer for.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
If we talk with some of those with OEM and sub contractors, they're more confident with Vietnam compare to India, as relocation target. This in term of bureaucracy flexibility and labour productiveness. Moreover Vietnam has easier to be sources from some components that's still needed supplied from China production chains.

The way I gather as target for relocation Vietnam usually rank highest, then follow by others in second tier like Philippines, Malaysia and India, and third tier like Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Thailand. In term of bureaucracy and infrastructure Indian mostly rank similar to Indonesian, they're rank higher overall due to better English speaking labour forces (as like Philippines).

This's why China become like this now, is not merely on 'cheap' labour costs. All the target relocation are emerging economies in Asia, with more or less similar labour costs. However they're still lack overall combination of internal market, labour productiveness, infrastructure capabilities, bureaucracy efficiency and more importantly availability of integrated supply chain within their own border.

China 'dooms day' supporters within some Western pundits and Political circles (especially in US and UK), seems over look this aspects. It is natural progression with China maturing, some supplies chains will relocate and replicate by others in Asia even South America. However this far from means of cutting off or replacing China from overall supply chain.
 

weaponwh

Member
If abandoning zero covid was always the plan, why have they scaled back vaccination? Why aren't they giving boosters to older people? That's just a small sample of their policies which are incompatible with abandoning zero covid.

Experts who expressed doubts about the long-term viability of zero covid have been sidelined, forced to retire early, & so on. Where is the preparation for abandoning zero covid? China seems to have been going in the opposite direction.
they still provide vaccination, but alot older people dont really trust those. older chinese tend to be more superstitious and rely more on traditional medicine. i think mainly due to the era they grow up. younger chinese have high vaccination rate but that was many month ago

before the protest, there were news about china slowly open up, however, after protest they accelerated.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
they still provide vaccination, but alot older people dont really trust those. older chinese tend to be more superstitious and rely more on traditional medicine.
That is one hypothesis -- another is that some Chinese are not trusting the locally developed and produced vaccines.

"If you look at earlier periods in the People's Republic of China's history ... what you see is in some ways almost the opposite in terms of really strong vaccination programs that work quite hard to convince people, particularly elderly people, to receive vaccines against infectious diseases," Brazelton says.

But lax oversight and corruption during recent decades of breakneck economic growth has led to a string of product quality scandals in China — from baby formula cut with industrial chemicals to contaminated blood thinner and tainted vaccines.

"To me, that kind of helps explain the degrees of hesitancy," Brazelton says.

Why vaccine hesitancy persists in China : Goats and Soda : NPR

Chinese leadership refused to obtain MRNA vaccines developed in Western countries even if it is clearly much more effective against the latest strains like Omikron. Germany to China: Use Western vaccines, duh – POLITICO

COVID cases are now exploding in e.g., Beijing, leading to deserted streets and empty offices and factories: China's zero-Covid easing: Cases explode in Beijing leaving streets empty and daily life disrupted | CNN

What we see now is probably just start of a new wave of COVID cases in China. It will take some time before this passes, and then the question becomes, how long will it take China to recover? The next few months will probably not be pleasant, with a large number of people in hospitals, and high number of deaths, that could have been minimized had they purchased the MRNA vaccines months ago.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Or just given old people more doses of their own vaccines . . .

I've read that two doses of, I think, their most widely used vaccine give decent protection, but it fades fairly quickly. A booster gives higher protection than two doses & extends the protection considerably. But most old people in China have had no more than two doses, & significant numbers have had fewer.

Alos, China's short of intensive care beds, & government propaganda has indirectly encouraged vaccine denial by talking up the efficacy of traditional Chinese medicine. The official position appears to be "Chinese good, foreign bad".
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This article describes the negative influence of the CCP and Chinese organized crime in Canada and the more or less SFA response from Ottawa, especially under junior’s watch (with Chrétien and Harper not being much better). The point about Asian gangs being much more sophisticated compared to Mexican gangs does explain the US focus on the southern border (hanging bodies under overpasses tends to get noticed). Current Chinese influence in Canadian politics will make corrective legislation very difficult IMO.

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
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This article describes the negative influence of the CCP and Chinese organized crime in Canada and the more or less SFA response from Ottawa, especially under junior’s watch (with Chrétien and Harper not being much better). The point about Asian gangs being much more sophisticated compared to Mexican gangs does explain the US focus on the southern border (hanging bodies under overpasses tends to get noticed). Current Chinese influence in Canadian politics will make corrective legislation very difficult IMO.
An interesting article. NZ has similar problems with the United Front quite active here. There has been a substantial amount of Chinese money invested in housing here and along with that, in NZ political parties. A previous PM, John Key, has been bursting into print lately extolling the virtues of the PRC and now appears to be a CCP apologist. He's blindly focused on the economics, ignoring the dangers and risks of the CCP / PRC to NZ security and sovereignty. That blind focus was evident during his time as PM (2009 - 2016).
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Interesting oped on Russia and China: Does China have designs on Siberia? | The Hill

I was not aware that China lost so much territory to Russia as late as 1860. When Russia has been sufficiently weakened, I am guessing China will make a move. A country that is already in conflict with India, is trying to establish the "nine-dash line" in the Sea and also claims Taiwan (that has been independent of China for quite a long time the last few centuries), will most likely reconsider the borders with Russia in the future?

This has been mentioned also long before Russian latest invasion of Ukraine and subsequent weakening of Russia (militarly, economically and politically) Why China Will Reclaim Siberia - NYTimes.com

Oh the irony -- After the cold war Europe wanted to work with and integrate with a Russia moving towards democracy and less corruption. However, Putin and his cronies choose differently, and here we are several decades later: Russia is going downhill, decoupling from Europe, and no way into NATO.

Had Russia chosen a different path in the 90s and 00s, and continued on that path until now, it might well have been a NATO member by now, Russia would have prospered, and China would have had to stay out of Siberia. Instead Russia is going towards catastrophe in the West, and, when China decides that Russia is weak enough, also in the far East.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This is the analysts on Nato and USSR then Russia, made more then a decade ago.

Many in Russia believed that the West would follow suit and dissolve the North Atlantic Alliance. Some hoped that Russia would become a NATO member. But the dominant view was that there would be a new all-European collective security system, including Russia, “from Vancouver to Vladivostok,” as proposed by Secretary of State Jim Baker in 1991. The Conference on Security and Cooperation was supposed to become the mechanism to construct this system.

These expectations, however, did not come true. While the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was established, it played only a marginal role. Instead, NATO started to play the dominant role. Since NATO had lost its mission of collective defense, because nobody could threaten the most powerful military alliance in the world, it was necessary to invent a new purpose. The slogan was: “Out of area, or out of business.” Step by step, NATO began to expand its responsibilities and membership to promote democracy and stability. Gorbachev’s vision was of “a common European home,” with former rivals under the same roof. But the new European home was built without Russia, on the basis of NATO and the EU.
This is why many outside non collective West stay in the fences. Because most not going to buy collective west possition, the path toward confrontation is 'only' Russian fault. West/NATO should disband themselves if they really want to embrace Russia. Now why West not doing that, not try to treat Russia as equal partner without holding one hand in the back (by keeping NATO), can be debated until end of time.

Russia does not see they will be treated in same way like old Nato members or the new ones (ex Warsaw Pact + Baltic States), as West always keep suspicion on Russia. So why Russia can not do the same, and preparing their own path.

Whether Putin or someone else in charge of Russia will not matter in the end. Different path between Russia and Collective West already set even Cold War and USSR dissolution still fresh. West want Russia follow their rules, Russia want to be treated equal, not something that going be solve without confrontation.

decoupling from Europe, and no way into NATO.
Because there are never be a realistic chances for Russia to be in Nato. Nato should be disband or change if West really want to embrace Russia. We know it is not going to be acceptable by West.
 

SolarisKenzo

Active Member
(...) West/NATO should disband themselves if they really want to embrace Russia. Now why West not doing that, not try to treat Russia as equal partner without holding one hand in the back (by keeping NATO), can be debated until end of time (...)

Because there are never be a realistic chances for Russia to be in Nato. Nato should be disband or change if West really want to embrace Russia. We know it is not going to be acceptable by West.
Nonsense.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Why Nonsense, there are enough assessment even from West that Russia and West has not going to see eye to eye on Euro Security even from the beginning of cold war dissolution. This is not a blame to West but also not to Russia. It is simply not 'to be' a marriage (if you want to put it), since no sides wants to get enough compromise to each other.

You may not agree on that, but certainly not nonsense (especially from non western perspective that sit on the fence). The article that I put, is but one of the assessment that simply put West and Russia were not changing their perspective to meet in the middle enough.

Why I put NATO either has to disband or change as Russia will always be see NATO in present form is only aim to hold Russia at Bay. However Russia themselves also not want to compromise enough to answer what worries West and Ex Warsaw Pact members on Russia to begin with.

So don't talk about NATO wants to 'realistically' accept Russia to begin with. Just as Russia will change their "interest" and going to join NATO on present arrangements.

Anyway I'm not going talk again on Russia and West/NATO in this thread. This is China's thread, and I don't minds if Mods put my posts back to proper Russia-West thread. I only comment as again there's comment in this forum, that Russia not joining NATO is solely Russian fault. I just want to debate that, especially from non western perspective.

The Russian and China increasing hook up, is just part of consequences of the path present Geopolitical conundrum.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Well, it can be related to this China thread.

European countries see NATO's raison d’etre as more than just a counterweight to Russia (which was one of the original key reasons for the founding) but a cornerstone of their security environment.

The original treaty charter includes “to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilization of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty, and the rule of law.”

If interpreted through that lens, you can appreciate why NATO comments on China, because a war in the east against an democractic society (TW) has both economic consequences as well as going against those principles.
 

SolarisKenzo

Active Member
Why Nonsense, there are enough assessment even from West that Russia and West has not going to see eye to eye on Euro Security even from the beginning of cold war dissolution. This is not a blame to West but also not to Russia. It is simply not 'to be' a marriage (if you want to put it), since no sides wants to get enough compromise to each other.

You may not agree on that, but certainly not nonsense (especially from non western perspective that sit on the fence). The article that I put, is but one of the assessment that simply put West and Russia were not changing their perspective to meet in the middle enough.

Why I put NATO either has to disband or change as Russia will always be see NATO in present form is only aim to hold Russia at Bay. However Russia themselves also not want to compromise enough to answer what worries West and Ex Warsaw Pact members on Russia to begin with.

So don't talk about NATO wants to 'realistically' accept Russia to begin with. Just as Russia will change their "interest" and going to join NATO on present arrangements.

Anyway I'm not going talk again on Russia and West/NATO in this thread. This is China's thread, and I don't minds if Mods put my posts back to proper Russia-West thread. I only comment as again there's comment in this forum, that Russia not joining NATO is solely Russian fault. I just want to debate that, especially from non western perspective.

The Russian and China increasing hook up, is just part of consequences of the path present Geopolitical conundrum.
NATO disband Is nonsense.
If you were the biggest military Alliance on the Planet, that guarantee development and security to 1 Billion people in an area of 27 300 000 km^2, why would you even think to step aside?
Russia in NATO Is another nonsense.
No One wanted Russia in NATO.
The entire point of NATO Is to counter Russia...An enemy is Better than a friend sometimes.
If you knew something about what happened in Europe during the early 2000s, you wouldnt even start this conversation.
Russia participating in Pratica di Mare meeting and the joint office created After the war in Jugoslavia werent a sign of Russia and Europe coming closer.
Neither Russia was really ever interested in coming closer to the west, Imagine NATO.
They were simply a product of the incredible amount of Money that Russian oligarchs, wisely led by Putin himself, injected into European politics.
Corruption at every level to let Russian Energy companies sell more and more resources.

But thats not the right thread...
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Russia in NATO Is another nonsense.
No One wanted Russia in NATO.
The entire point of NATO Is to counter Russia...An enemy is Better than a friend sometimes.
Agree on that, that's why my previous comments is aim toward 'counter argument' on thinking as if there's "ever" be a path for Russia to "ever" be taken for NATO membership. It is an illusion to think that's ever happened.

NATO will never take Russia as member, because that means it will change NATO as much as close to disband NATO it self on the present form and idea.

That's the article that I put on previous post talk. Even in the 'weakest' point of Russia after USSR dissolve, West still not going to take Russia as both don't have common idea on Euro Security in the beginning. There's not much effort to take advantage the time from both sides to reach common ground. West feel as Victor of cold war want Russia to bend knees (so to speak). Russia still have enough 'pride' and interest to demand equal treatment.

So yes the talk as if Russia will ever be 'accepted' as part of NATO, will not happen in the beginning (if ever), being considered by both sides. This path will in the end going to divergence, and that's going to be taken to direction of rivalry and confrontation. What we still don't know if this is going to be new multipolar world of Cold War 2.0, or just intense rivalry on commercial sides, or even lead to WW3.

interpreted through that lens, you can appreciate why NATO comments on China, because a war in the east against an democractic society (TW) has both economic consequences as well as going against those principles.
The thing is, Western mainstream media and think tanks seems think only Russia and China that want new world order. I do sense this multipolar order, even potentially being taken by other emerging economies. When they getting bigger they don't want to be just follower. They want to take on their own path. We can see some discord from West dominance being taken by other BRICS and even Gulf Kingdoms.

This will not taken overnight, but it is mistaken if the idea to take different path from Western lead order only being pursue by China and Russia alone. Others perhaps will not as confrontative as those two, but will not means they are "not" trying to carve their own potential path.
 
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