ADF General discussion thread

Lolcake

Active Member
$18 to 27 b in out-turned dollars that buys vehicles, industry, facilities, spares and sustainment support until at least 2042? To replace a platform that if it was RAAF would be a Mirage III or RAN a Charles F Adams?

Yes. That is vital. And no, it's not the 'best' IFV (whatever that means - best is situational and arguable). I mean, there are enough internet peeps that tell me a Puma is better than a Lynx, and at least they are easily comparable. What the winner will be is the best IFV that balances cost, capability and sustainability. Choosing a capability is significantly harder than many here realise, and you cannot compare how nations buy or negotiate orders. Slovakia's $$ buy has as much relation to the ADF as my weekly shop has to McDonalds.

As an aside, the public reason for not going ahead with the CV90 was that it cost too much...
Again, there isn't an unlimited pot to dip into. In an ideal world we wpuld purchase these IFVs at no detriment to other assets that would be better force multipliers. It's about priorities. Where do ifv vehicles fit into a battle in the south China Sea? Which assets would better defend our shipping lanes as an island nation?

20 to 27 bn 'out to 2042', could sustain more subs, ASW assets and ships and also Local manufacture of hypersonics for these subs. Perhaps even nuclear capable B-21s could be purchased with that coin. That money could also be an opportunity for Australia to put some big boys pants on and start a fully fledged nuclear power and weapons industry as a proper deterrent force, because China sure as anyhing isn't sitting around with regards to its nuclear asset acquisition a further option is a larger Investment in air defence(thaad-er or equivalent) and local himars production.

I know where I would rather put my LIMITED money in a future war in our strategic space.

The loss could be someone offset with Boxers and additional bushmasters. I just cannot agree with that outlay given our situation.

Regards

@Lolcake

There is no indcation that Australia will pursue nuclear weapons. All statements made by goverment reiterate the fact Australia will not pursue nuclear weapons. Added to this our main allies would not support Australia getting nuclear weapons. In fact the US actively work against such proposals (Japan and Republic of Korea being a case in point). The UN as an organisations would also not support Australia getting nuclear weapons.

Suggest you drop this line of discussion.

alexsa
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
Australia is in an awkward position. If it goes all in on anti-access/area-denial we become a considerable less important ally to the US and other nations in this region. The repercussions of this would negatively impact on our security. We are already seeing other regional powers coming up with there own arrangements with China.

Really who could blame them?

If they feel unsupported by the west they will have to look at other ways to ensure their survival.

Could Fiji, the Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia or even NZ expect Australia boots on the ground to defend them from the Chinese?

I doubt it if the army is simply reduced to the role of manning missile batteries.

I have always seen the role of the military as preventing conflicts as much as fighting them. A powerful well balanced military is of greater deterrence value than a very focussed military. To some extend if China were to look at Australia as this impenetrable fortress, that had little to no ability to project power, it would take that as a win. That would effectively give it a free hand to go around and bully, bribe and coerce other nations into submission.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Again, there isn't an unlimited pot to dip into. In an ideal world we wpuld purchase these IFVs at no detriment to other assets that would be better force multipliers. It's about priorities. Where do ifv vehicles fit into a battle in the south China Sea? Which assets would better defend our shipping lanes as an island nation?

20 to 27 bn 'out to 2042', could sustain more subs, ASW assets and ships and also Local manufacture of hypersonics for these subs. Perhaps even nuclear capable B-21s could be purchased with that coin. That money could also be an opportunity for Australia to put some big boys pants on and start a fully fledged nuclear power and weapons industry as a proper deterrent force, because China sure as anyhing isn't sitting around with regards to its nuclear asset acquisition a further option is a larger Investment in air defence(thaad-er or equivalent) and local himars production.

I know where I would rather put my LIMITED money in a future war in our strategic space.

The loss could be someone offset with Boxers and additional bushmasters. I just cannot agree with that outlay given our situation.

Regards
If we knew what the next conflict was we could plan equipment and force structure specifically for that contingency.
The challenge is what about the following conflict. What does that look like? What does that need? More of the same "stuff" or something completely different.

As you probably know the ADF has fought a very wide range of conflicts over a of a wide array of geography against many diverse nations spread across the planet.

The reality is we need a bit of everything to deal with everything.

If we rob Peter to pay Paul we lose balance and that may prove catastrophic to our future defence needs.

Army will always need to have creditable options for the modern fight.

I am open, but not completely sold that Boxer may prove a substitute for a tracked IFV.
Increased Boxer numbers may be a viable path forward.
But tanks are a must have................No compromise.


Cheers S
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Again, there isn't an unlimited pot to dip into. In an ideal world we wpuld purchase these IFVs at no detriment to other assets that would be better force multipliers. It's about priorities. Where do ifv vehicles fit into a battle in the south China Sea? Which assets would better defend our shipping lanes as an island nation?

20 to 27 bn 'out to 2042', could sustain more subs, ASW assets and ships and also Local manufacture of hypersonics for these subs. Perhaps even nuclear capable B-21s could be purchased with that coin. That money could also be an opportunity for Australia to put some big boys pants on and start a fully fledged nuclear power and weapons industry as a proper deterrent force, because China sure as anyhing isn't sitting around with regards to its nuclear asset acquisition a further option is a larger Investment in air defence(thaad-er or equivalent) and local himars production.

I know where I would rather put my LIMITED money in a future war in our strategic space.

The loss could be someone offset with Boxers and additional bushmasters. I just cannot agree with that outlay given our situation.

Regards
Australia is NOT going to develop a nuclear weapons capability; we do not have the expertise nor infrastructure in place to do so. Our Allies will not assist us in doing so and would almost certainly withdraw support for all Defence systems currently in place. We do not have either the political or public will to do so. We have signed international agreements against non-proliferation of nuclear weapons and to break that agreement could lead to Australia being put on a weapons embargo list by most of our partners.

Some friendly advice, the Mods here may not be happy to see posts about theoretical Australian nuclear weapons, it definitely falls in the fantasyland category.
 
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Takao

The Bunker Group
Again, there isn't an unlimited pot to dip into. In an ideal world we wpuld purchase these IFVs at no detriment to other assets that would be better force multipliers. It's about priorities. Where do ifv vehicles fit into a battle in the south China Sea? Which assets would better defend our shipping lanes as an island nation?

20 to 27 bn 'out to 2042', could sustain more subs, ASW assets and ships and also Local manufacture of hypersonics for these subs. Perhaps even nuclear capable B-21s could be purchased with that coin. That money could also be an opportunity for Australia to put some big boys pants on and start a fully fledged nuclear power and weapons industry as a proper deterrent force, because China sure as anyhing isn't sitting around with regards to its nuclear asset acquisition a further option is a larger Investment in air defence(thaad-er or equivalent) and local himars production.

I know where I would rather put my LIMITED money in a future war in our strategic space.

The loss could be someone offset with Boxers and additional bushmasters. I just cannot agree with that outlay given our situation.

Regards
This post (putting aside the nuclear weapons lines that @Redlands18 has much more politely responded to), this post demonstrates three things that are quite common, but mean one cannot actually contribute seriously to defence discussions.

The first is an ignorance about the role of the ADF. It fulfils missions that are given to it by Government, which includes the defence of Australian interests. Australian interests are not just geographically confined, but rather they are global in scope. This is clearly seen, even in the worst days of Defence of Australia, where the ADF has committed forces to Rwanda, Somalia, Timor Leste, PNG, Afghanistan, Iraq, Solomon Islands and others. We also have contributed elements to South Korea, NATO, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, the Philippines among others. That's in the last 30 years alone. The fact you refer to the South China Sea (why are we fighting there?) further highlights the hypocrisy of the DoA people - Australian interests do not stop at the 12 nm line.

To that end, the ADF needs to be capable across a broad area of remit. Yes, it is a limited pool of money. That's what makes force design harder than picking kit. But until you change the government's explicit tasking, you need a capable Air Force, Army and Navy. I would highly recommend reading any official histories about our intervention into Timor Leste in 1999 to see how close we came to failing - because of the decision to go Defence of Australia and restrict the Army to some ASLAVs and PMVs.

Secondly is ignorance about how an Army fights. We don't fight alone, we fight as combined arms teams. The simplest team is the infantry-armour team. Infantry is squishy, slow and poorly armed. It has no shock value and very limited in what it can carry. It does, however, excel at operating in complex terrain, getting into sneaky places, as well as dealing with occupied terrain, most notably people (civilian, neutral and enemy). Armour, on the other hand, is the opposite. Putting infantry and armour together covers each other's weaknesses. Just look at Russian armoured tactics at the start of 2022, where combined arms was ignored and kit died.

This means that, just like a football team where wingers strengths make up for front rower's weaknesses and vice versa, the team is only as strong as it's weakest link. Using the M113 is the same as using the Mirage III today. If you think it's feasible to take the Mirage III against a REDFOR threat in 2032 then I'll give up. But if you think an F-35 may be more suitable, you've answered why the M113 needs replacement. Yes, Boxer is used as an APC/IFV by some nations. But they face problems, most commonly in the direct fire/assault zone. There, the tanks and IFVs need common mobility so they can fight together.

Thirdly is the word deterrence. I belong to the school of though that argues the only two things that truly deter a potential enemy are mass (and by that I mean significant mass, a'la the Soviet Union in 1980s. Not 1 Bde being the toughest nut in the region in the 1980s) or nuclear weapons. Without those, we can't deter. Which means, the ADF cannot deter. But I'm happy to debate that - what people don't understand is what provides the best deterrence. RAND has done a study on this, the best deterrence is heavily armoured, forward deployed Army units. Why? Two reasons. One, it's a bloody hard nut to crack and two, it's a sure sign of a nation's commitment. We say to ally 'we are here to help, have some PMV' and we say to ally 'we are here to help, where would you like our Bde?' are two very different discussions. Without a capable Army, your best chance at deterrence (assuming I am wrong about mass and nukes) has been deleted. In addition to the findings of RAND that mobile assets provide less deterrence, have a look at all of the deterrence the USAF and allies provided against the Taliban in 2021...

But, in a specific answer of how do IFVs fit into operations in the SCS? The answer to me seems quite clear, supporting the VPA in keeping their border secure and pressuring the CCP's southern flank. And for VPA, read any of the nations to the south of China that we are friendly with - Cambodia, Thailand, India, Pakistan (all of whom, by the way, send students to ADFA, RMC, Staff College and other training courses).

You are correct that there is limited money. Which is why people who have done the job criticise kit focused decisions. To give you a rough idea, FSP20 used weeks of wargaming, each wargame consisting of 50 - 150 people across the ADO and other Departments. And that's before the analysis before and after. It's why I am known to say, if you don't want IFV's that's cool. You don't argue LAND 400's selections. You argue the Government direction. Throwing out stuff like more ships, subs or aircraft is meaningless. Actually, as an aside, from memory the RAN and RAAF are prioritised in the first 10 years by FSP20; most of LAND 400's funding falls after 2030... So if the sky is falling and we need more RAN/RAAF, we have already prioritised that.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This post (putting aside the nuclear weapons lines that @Redlands18 has much more politely responded to), this post demonstrates three things that are quite common, but mean one cannot actually contribute seriously to defence discussions.

The first is an ignorance about the role of the ADF. It fulfils missions that are given to it by Government, which includes the defence of Australian interests. Australian interests are not just geographically confined, but rather they are global in scope. This is clearly seen, even in the worst days of Defence of Australia, where the ADF has committed forces to Rwanda, Somalia, Timor Leste, PNG, Afghanistan, Iraq, Solomon Islands and others. We also have contributed elements to South Korea, NATO, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, the Philippines among others. That's in the last 30 years alone. The fact you refer to the South China Sea (why are we fighting there?) further highlights the hypocrisy of the DoA people - Australian interests do not stop at the 12 nm line.

To that end, the ADF needs to be capable across a broad area of remit. Yes, it is a limited pool of money. That's what makes force design harder than picking kit. But until you change the government's explicit tasking, you need a capable Air Force, Army and Navy. I would highly recommend reading any official histories about our intervention into Timor Leste in 1999 to see how close we came to failing - because of the decision to go Defence of Australia and restrict the Army to some ASLAVs and PMVs.

Secondly is ignorance about how an Army fights. We don't fight alone, we fight as combined arms teams. The simplest team is the infantry-armour team. Infantry is squishy, slow and poorly armed. It has no shock value and very limited in what it can carry. It does, however, excel at operating in complex terrain, getting into sneaky places, as well as dealing with occupied terrain, most notably people (civilian, neutral and enemy). Armour, on the other hand, is the opposite. Putting infantry and armour together covers each other's weaknesses. Just look at Russian armoured tactics at the start of 2022, where combined arms was ignored and kit died.

This means that, just like a football team where wingers strengths make up for front rower's weaknesses and vice versa, the team is only as strong as it's weakest link. Using the M113 is the same as using the Mirage III today. If you think it's feasible to take the Mirage III against a REDFOR threat in 2032 then I'll give up. But if you think an F-35 may be more suitable, you've answered why the M113 needs replacement. Yes, Boxer is used as an APC/IFV by some nations. But they face problems, most commonly in the direct fire/assault zone. There, the tanks and IFVs need common mobility so they can fight together.

Thirdly is the word deterrence. I belong to the school of though that argues the only two things that truly deter a potential enemy are mass (and by that I mean significant mass, a'la the Soviet Union in 1980s. Not 1 Bde being the toughest nut in the region in the 1980s) or nuclear weapons. Without those, we can't deter. Which means, the ADF cannot deter. But I'm happy to debate that - what people don't understand is what provides the best deterrence. RAND has done a study on this, the best deterrence is heavily armoured, forward deployed Army units. Why? Two reasons. One, it's a bloody hard nut to crack and two, it's a sure sign of a nation's commitment. We say to ally 'we are here to help, have some PMV' and we say to ally 'we are here to help, where would you like our Bde?' are two very different discussions. Without a capable Army, your best chance at deterrence (assuming I am wrong about mass and nukes) has been deleted. In addition to the findings of RAND that mobile assets provide less deterrence, have a look at all of the deterrence the USAF and allies provided against the Taliban in 2021...

But, in a specific answer of how do IFVs fit into operations in the SCS? The answer to me seems quite clear, supporting the VPA in keeping their border secure and pressuring the CCP's southern flank. And for VPA, read any of the nations to the south of China that we are friendly with - Cambodia, Thailand, India, Pakistan (all of whom, by the way, send students to ADFA, RMC, Staff College and other training courses).

You are correct that there is limited money. Which is why people who have done the job criticise kit focused decisions. To give you a rough idea, FSP20 used weeks of wargaming, each wargame consisting of 50 - 150 people across the ADO and other Departments. And that's before the analysis before and after. It's why I am known to say, if you don't want IFV's that's cool. You don't argue LAND 400's selections. You argue the Government direction. Throwing out stuff like more ships, subs or aircraft is meaningless. Actually, as an aside, from memory the RAN and RAAF are prioritised in the first 10 years by FSP20; most of LAND 400's funding falls after 2030... So if the sky is falling and we need more RAN/RAAF, we have already prioritised that.
I had a chuckle at, 'we are here to help, where would you like our Bde?'. Sadly in 2001, that's pretty much what we said to the US, we will contribute an armoured brigade. Unfortunately we didn't have one to contribute at the time.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Even more damning, 21 years on we still don't.

Regards,

Massive
Only because we don’t deploy brigades. We could certainly put together an armoured taskforce that would largely resemble what most consider a ‘brigade’.

It just couldn’t deploy and fight for long, take many casualties, or be rotated in place…
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member

Bob53

Well-Known Member
This post (putting aside the nuclear weapons lines that @Redlands18 has much more politely responded to), this post demonstrates three things that are quite common, but mean one cannot actually contribute seriously to defence discussions.

The first is an ignorance about the role of the ADF. It fulfils missions that are given to it by Government, which includes the defence of Australian interests. Australian interests are not just geographically confined, but rather they are global in scope. This is clearly seen, even in the worst days of Defence of Australia, where the ADF has committed forces to Rwanda, Somalia, Timor Leste, PNG, Afghanistan, Iraq, Solomon Islands and others. We also have contributed elements to South Korea, NATO, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, the Philippines among others. That's in the last 30 years alone. The fact you refer to the South China Sea (why are we fighting there?) further highlights the hypocrisy of the DoA people - Australian interests do not stop at the 12 nm line.

To that end, the ADF needs to be capable across a broad area of remit. Yes, it is a limited pool of money. That's what makes force design harder than picking kit. But until you change the government's explicit tasking, you need a capable Air Force, Army and Navy. I would highly recommend reading any official histories about our intervention into Timor Leste in 1999 to see how close we came to failing - because of the decision to go Defence of Australia and restrict the Army to some ASLAVs and PMVs.

Secondly is ignorance about how an Army fights. We don't fight alone, we fight as combined arms teams. The simplest team is the infantry-armour team. Infantry is squishy, slow and poorly armed. It has no shock value and very limited in what it can carry. It does, however, excel at operating in complex terrain, getting into sneaky places, as well as dealing with occupied terrain, most notably people (civilian, neutral and enemy). Armour, on the other hand, is the opposite. Putting infantry and armour together covers each other's weaknesses. Just look at Russian armoured tactics at the start of 2022, where combined arms was ignored and kit died.

This means that, just like a football team where wingers strengths make up for front rower's weaknesses and vice versa, the team is only as strong as it's weakest link. Using the M113 is the same as using the Mirage III today. If you think it's feasible to take the Mirage III against a REDFOR threat in 2032 then I'll give up. But if you think an F-35 may be more suitable, you've answered why the M113 needs replacement. Yes, Boxer is used as an APC/IFV by some nations. But they face problems, most commonly in the direct fire/assault zone. There, the tanks and IFVs need common mobility so they can fight together.

Thirdly is the word deterrence. I belong to the school of though that argues the only two things that truly deter a potential enemy are mass (and by that I mean significant mass, a'la the Soviet Union in 1980s. Not 1 Bde being the toughest nut in the region in the 1980s) or nuclear weapons. Without those, we can't deter. Which means, the ADF cannot deter. But I'm happy to debate that - what people don't understand is what provides the best deterrence. RAND has done a study on this, the best deterrence is heavily armoured, forward deployed Army units. Why? Two reasons. One, it's a bloody hard nut to crack and two, it's a sure sign of a nation's commitment. We say to ally 'we are here to help, have some PMV' and we say to ally 'we are here to help, where would you like our Bde?' are two very different discussions. Without a capable Army, your best chance at deterrence (assuming I am wrong about mass and nukes) has been deleted. In addition to the findings of RAND that mobile assets provide less deterrence, have a look at all of the deterrence the USAF and allies provided against the Taliban in 2021...

But, in a specific answer of how do IFVs fit into operations in the SCS? The answer to me seems quite clear, supporting the VPA in keeping their border secure and pressuring the CCP's southern flank. And for VPA, read any of the nations to the south of China that we are friendly with - Cambodia, Thailand, India, Pakistan (all of whom, by the way, send students to ADFA, RMC, Staff College and other training courses).

You are correct that there is limited money. Which is why people who have done the job criticise kit focused decisions. To give you a rough idea, FSP20 used weeks of wargaming, each wargame consisting of 50 - 150 people across the ADO and other Departments. And that's before the analysis before and after. It's why I am known to say, if you don't want IFV's that's cool. You don't argue LAND 400's selections. You argue the Government direction. Throwing out stuff like more ships, subs or aircraft is meaningless. Actually, as an aside, from memory the RAN and RAAF are prioritised in the first 10 years by FSP20; most of LAND 400's funding falls after 2030... So if the sky is falling and we need more RAN/RAAF, we have already prioritised that.
I just assume that the ADF knows what they need for a balanced force and they said they need IFVs…so just get them
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Is that a change from Duttons original request that internal disciplinary action wait until the full investigation is completed? Politics?
We have learned nothing.
After the Vietnam war, veterans had to deal with hostile civilians, who called them murderers and criminals, now veteran have to suffer the same fate from the very people who sent them.
Sad
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We have learned nothing.
After the Vietnam war, veterans had to deal with hostile civilians, who called them murderers and criminals, now veteran have to suffer the same fate from the very people who sent them.
Sad
Just to be clear, this is one small group isn't it? Not all Afghanistan / Iraq War veterans?

If the members of this small group were found to have committed offences against the rules of war, and / or the legislation that covers the discipline of the ADF then it is correct that they should be punished for their actions. If the officers above this group knew of such offences and failed to do anything about it then they too should bear responsibility for their lack of action.

No military force has a clean record when it comes to war crimes, but that doesn't excuse them happening, being allowed to happen, or parts of the command chain turning a blind eye and / or in some instances attempting to cover it up when they do happen.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Again, there isn't an unlimited pot to dip into. In an ideal world we wpuld purchase these IFVs at no detriment to other assets that would be better force multipliers. It's about priorities. Where do ifv vehicles fit into a battle in the south China Sea? Which assets would better defend our shipping lanes as an island nation?

20 to 27 bn 'out to 2042', could sustain more subs, ASW assets and ships and also Local manufacture of hypersonics for these subs. Perhaps even nuclear capable B-21s could be purchased with that coin. That money could also be an opportunity for Australia to put some big boys pants on and start a fully fledged nuclear power and weapons industry as a proper deterrent force, because China sure as anyhing isn't sitting around with regards to its nuclear asset acquisition a further option is a larger Investment in air defence(thaad-er or equivalent) and local himars production.

I know where I would rather put my LIMITED money in a future war in our strategic space.

The loss could be someone offset with Boxers and additional bushmasters. I just cannot agree with that outlay given our situation.

Regards
Nuclear weapons???? Are you serious? Have you been on the jungle juice or the electric weed? You have been on here long enough to know where Australia stands legally, politically, and morally WRT the acquisition of nuclear weapons. You are also pushing the B-21 when it's basically fantasyland and you know why. Get back to reality for Pete's sake.

Australia cannot procure or manufacture nuclear weapons because it is a signatory to the Nuclear Weapons Non Proliferation Treaty. The geopolitical consequences of breaking that Treaty would be very substantial and likely to make Australia a pariah state.

The B-21 will not be available for USAF operational service for probably 5 - 10 years, depending upon where they are currently in the program. It is not a given that the B-21 will be available for export. The B-21 cost could and probably will be very expensive. That money most likely could be put to better use elsewhere in the ADF.

There is no magic bullet and / or platform. The ADF response has to be an all of ADF effort and looked at as such, and through such a lens.

Now I don't know whether to give you a warning, demerit points, or what. I am still trying to figure out your post. My first paragraph isn't in green or red because I am still somewhat face planted. Please don't go down this path again because if you do, next time I won't be acting like a stunned mullet and will be cranky. Have a think and look at the practical reasons about something you propose or suggest. Read through and see what others have said. Especially pay attention to Takao's posts, especially this one because he knows exactly what he's talking about. I learn quite a bit from his posts.
 

Lolcake

Active Member
Nuclear weapons???? Are you serious? Have you been on the jungle juice or the electric weed? You have been on here long enough to know where Australia stands legally, politically, and morally WRT the acquisition of nuclear weapons. You are also pushing the B-21 when it's basically fantasyland and you know why. Get back to reality for Pete's sake.

Australia cannot procure or manufacture nuclear weapons because it is a signatory to the Nuclear Weapons Non Proliferation Treaty. The geopolitical consequences of breaking that Treaty would be very substantial and likely to make Australia a pariah state.

The B-21 will not be available for USAF operational service for probably 5 - 10 years, depending upon where they are currently in the program. It is not a given that the B-21 will be available for export. The B-21 cost could and probably will be very expensive. That money most likely could be put to better use elsewhere in the ADF.

There is no magic bullet and / or platform. The ADF response has to be an all of ADF effort and looked at as such, and through such a lens.

Now I don't know whether to give you a warning, demerit points, or what. I am still trying to figure out your post. My first paragraph isn't in green or red because I am still somewhat face planted. Please don't go down this path again because if you do, next time I won't be acting like a stunned mullet and will be cranky. Have a think and look at the practical reasons about something you propose or suggest. Read through and see what others have said. Especially pay attention to Takao's posts, especially this one because he knows exactly what he's talking about. I learn quite a bit from his posts.
Had one too many beers that night. Had just finished a book called Australia and the Bomb by Christine Leah and in my deep manifestations somehow conjured up what you saw in that post. Was probably one more beer away from mentioning Australia forming the new 4th Reich as the cherry on top! Apologies for the fallacies!
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
Only because we don’t deploy brigades.
Mechanised maybe. With the equivalent of 1 regiment of tanks in the entire army you simply cannot generate an armoured brigade.

Semantics perhaps but the ADF has very limited land power.

Regards,

Massive

Ps. Agreed on the taskforce and am not really disagreeing with you more broadly in the end. Would note that the taskforce would be comprised of Abrams (excellent), LAV-25 (vulnerable), M113 (obsolete), Motorised combat engineers (vulnerable - though not as vulnerable as the infantry in M113), towed artillery (obsolete), RBS-70 (near-obsolete).
 
We have learned nothing.
After the Vietnam war, veterans had to deal with hostile civilians, who called them murderers and criminals, now veteran have to suffer the same fate from the very people who sent them.
Sad
We’ve learnt a lot I’d say. Unlike the Vietnam War, where war crimes went largely unpunished (My Lai massacre) or very lightly punished, in the Afghanistan war, war crimes are being punished. It’s irrelevant who sent them, not one politician asked the military to commit war crimes. As we’ve seen from the ABC SAS footage and numerous stories from veterans, there is evidence that happened. If you don’t want to suffer the fate of some SAS troopers and their leaders, don’t act in a way that puts you at risk of legal action.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I belong to the school of though that argues the only two things that truly deter a potential enemy are mass (and by that I mean significant mass, a'la the Soviet Union in 1980s. Not 1 Bde being the toughest nut in the region in the 1980s) or nuclear weapons. Without those, we can't deter. Which means, the ADF cannot deter. But I'm happy to debate that - what people don't understand is what provides the best deterrence. RAND has done a study on this, the best deterrence is heavily armoured, forward deployed Army units. Why? Two reasons. One, it's a bloody hard nut to crack and two, it's a sure sign of a nation's commitment. We say to ally 'we are here to help, have some PMV' and we say to ally 'we are here to help, where would you like our Bde?' are two very different discussions. Without a capable Army, your best chance at deterrence (assuming I am wrong about mass and nukes) has been deleted. In addition to the findings of RAND that mobile assets provide less deterrence, have a look at all of the deterrence the USAF and allies provided against the Taliban in 2021...
Thanks for an excellent post.

For medium and small countries that have chosen (or don't have the option) to go nuclear, perhaps the best deterrence is to ally with a global power that has both mass and nukes, e.g., the US. Does ANZUS provide sufficient protection? I am not so sure; the legal text seems much weaker than NATO's article 5. However, Australia has a long and close working relationship with the US, maybe that helps make the deterrent effect of ANZUS stronger and more credible?

I agree that the US will be more inclined to help those that can help themselves. Thus, it seems to me that the best way forward for Australia is to build strong, credible armed forces, well balanced between air, land, and sea, and combine this with a strong alliance with others -- in the first instance the US, but it probably does not harm to forge stronger bonds with e.g., Japan, India, South Korea, and NATO? It seems this is already happening, e.g. with the Quad, and closer NATO collaboration (China, Russia and climate change: why Australia's place at the NATO Summit was so important), as well as stronger ties to Japan (https://www.dfat.gov.au/countries/japan/australia-japan-joint-declaration-security-cooperation) and South Korea (S. Korea, Australia agree to enhance defense cooperation, reinforce military exercises). Of course, these partnerships cannot be compared to the US-Australian alliance, but it will probably mean that more options are viable depending on how things develop both politically and militarily in the region in the future.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
If summarising the discussion to date it seems to be landing on a fleet something approaching:

1. 16 Tier 1 combatants (4-8 AWD, 8-12 ASW frigate)
2. 6-8 Tier 2 combatants (~5000t GP frigate)
3. 12 Tier 3 combatants (~1500-2000t Mine warfare/OPV)

Is this feasible?

There have been some comments regarding an additional LHD or an additional AOR. With existing plans for 2x JSS, would it be better to accelerate these instead.

Regards,

Massive
The UK went through the same process with the type 31. They looked at a range of options from essentially just upgunned OPVs through to what they eventually settled on. I think Australia needs to bite the bullet and follow the same path. Looking at the Chinese navy now and what it is likely to resemble in another 10 years I really don't see the point in a dozen or so under armed corvettes.

I wouldn't build any more OPVs after the first 6 and shift production to MCM and Hydro vessels instead. Get a few more Cape class PBs if required. Eventually I would like to see a second line of frigate construction being set up in West Australia. I don't see the China problem going away and I think Australia will eventually have to expand its surface fleet to the point where it may be able to support two separate production lines.

Scrap the idea of the JSS. No country has ever been able to make that concept work anyway. Instead get an extra LHD and AOR from Spain.

Extra Hobarts could be considered but since I have essentially just recommended building an entirely new class of GP frigate I doubt the money would be available.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
A proposed "Aukus visa" might be a clue as to how production of nuclear submarines in Australia could be accelerated.
Personnel from Australia, US and UK could freely move between the three countries. This could enable Australian workers to gain experience directly on the production lines in the US and UK while key personnel from those countries could work on setting up production in Australia. I can see how that arrangement could accelerate the whole construction process in Australia particularly if all three countries will be working with the same submarine design.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
If this was the way it was going to go then I think it would look something like:

8 Hunter ASW first
8 Hunter AWD second

8 GP frigates approximating the Mogami frigate (concurrent) - ~5000t so not a corvette

12 Mine warfare with full kit - operate 4 as fitted mine warfare and 8 as patrol with kit in storage.
6 OPV (or however many are currently under construction).

It's a lot of extra funds so would definitely require GoD commitment.

Regards,

Massive
 
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