ADF General discussion thread

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Here’s the full article for those who don’t have access


Labor’s Defence review to park tanks in history

The Australian

Greg Sheridan

21 November 2022 13:00



The good news is, it seems the tank is gone. The interim report of the Defence Strategic Review, being conducted by Stephen Smith and Angus Houston, has been delivered to the government, which will get the final report early in February and respond to it fully by March. I hear the tank is gone.

In national security and international affairs, the Albanese government has had a whirlwind first six months. But there will hardly be anything more important than the decisions it makes next March.

The DSR will rightly recommend reduced investment in armour – tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and similar beasts – in order to focus on far more relevant and important priorities. There is no plausible scenario in which tanks, or even IFVs, could be important to Australian security. This means no more than 300 of the gargantuan-sized and largely unusable IFVs.

This is not a negative decision. It’s a reality decision. The DSR gives the government a chance to focus defence effort on capabilities relevant to our dangerous environment, in which the challenges are maritime, missile and drone.

The DSR also recommends substantial action for our northern air force bases. Some are shabby and in a poor state of readiness. None is hardened.

Hopefully, there is never a military conflict in this region. But if there ever were to be a military clash between the US and China over Taiwan, Australia would furnish a dozen high-priority targets for Chinese attack. These include the Pine Gap and North West Cape communications facilities, the submarine base at HMAS Stirling near Perth and the main air force bases, as well as the part-time air force bases we have in northern Australia.

UQ's Garrick Professor of Law James Allan says anyone who thinks Australia can defend itself right now is “delusional”. “By all means, I’d spend a lot more on defence, we’re still barely two per cent … get it up to three,” she told Sky News host Rowan Dean. “Let’s not start burning bridges, without the Americans we’re in big trouble.”

If all these facilities were wiped out in a first strike, we would have very little capacity to defend ourselves at all. Yet none of these facilities is hardened or properly defended. The DSR, I believe, will call for a significant expansion, and perhaps hardening, of our northern air force bases. It will also call for the development of missile defences around some of them.

This is not such a radical concept. We provide missile defence for ships at sea, planes in the air and sometimes deployed ground forces. Hardening and defending remote air bases is extremely unsexy as military expenditure goes. There’s no bright shiny “toy” at the end of the process. But it’s critical expenditure if you want to have a real military capability as opposed to a symbolic capability; that is, if you want to have any war-fighting capability. And it’s only a war-fighting capability that can deter a potential enemy.

The DSR will also recommend a fourth combat squadron of Joint Strike Fighter F-35s. If we get this extra squadron, and maybe some extra training F-35s, and keep our Super Hornets and Growlers in service as we should, this would take us over the magic 100 fast-jet figure.

One hundred fast jets to defend the whole of Australia is not remotely excessive. And we’ll struggle to recruit the needed pilots. It’s also true that more F-35s doesn’t extend the range at which our air force can operate. But given the attrition rates involved in any combat, this increase does give you greater density, endurance and sustainability.

The DSR will recommend a big investment in missiles and drones. This cannot come soon enough. The Defence Department took a ludicrous length of time to identify the obvious suspects, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, as its primary industry partners in developing a local missile-making industry. Some three years after this was first announced, the government still hasn’t told these companies precisely what missiles it would like. Indeed, they were only engaged formally at all five minutes before the last federal election.

Defence Minister Richard Marles warns Australia’s Defence Force faces personnel shortages of over 4,000 staff as it fails to meet targets of over 81,000. “We must innovate to compete and attract new skills, not just for soldiers in the field but in intelligence, space and cyber,” says Mr Marles. “We will have to be willing and capable to act on our own terms when we have to.\"

In an important piece on this page on Monday, Paul Dibb outlined that the Japanese probably intend to buy large stocks of Tomahawk missiles and ground-based long-range missiles that can hit ships and ground targets. The DSR will recommend that Australia do something very similar.

Of course, here is a very big problem. Throughout the West there is a tremendous shortage of missiles. The necessary and right action in supporting Ukraine has just about emptied Western arsenals of all their surplus stock. Western missile-building industries cannot keep production up anywhere near demand. If Australia placed orders for all these missiles right now, they would still probably be a couple of years from delivery.

But here is a top-priority, urgent, code-red message for Defence. If you don’t actually place an order, you will never, ever get them. The delay in all this has been near criminal. The acquisition process in the Defence Department is woefully, hopelessly unfit for purpose. But let’s not spend another 100 years reforming the acquisition process. Let’s just buy the weapons.

The DSR will also recommend big changes to the Offshore Patrol Vessel project. We’re building OPVs as big as small frigates but they carry no serious weapons, don’t have hulls thick enough for combat, or decks strong enough for helicopters. They are being built by Luerssens. You could easily put more weapons on them and make them more lethal. But to make them real combat ships you’d need modifications to the hull and so on. That plus the new weapons would change their weight and there would be a bit of redesign work.

Luerssens already makes proper combat corvettes, just 10m longer than our OPVs, and with a full range of anti-ship missiles and other weapons. These are as cheap as chips compared with the overweight, under-gunned Hunter frigates we are going to get on Star Trek time from the British.

We could switch from OPVs to the corvettes and still get the whole 12 of them before we get more than a Hunter frigate or two. But, and here is the enormous but, we cannot do this if we embark on the normal “hundred years of solitude” tender process that Defence routinely uses and that would take years to complete.

The government, as Anthony Albanese and Richard Marles have frequently suggested, must prioritise producing real capabilities quickly. The alternative is to honour the impenetrable, baroque processes of Defence tradition.

The DSR will also recommend more missiles for the ANZAC frigates. The DSR can’t look at what we do on nuclear submarines or on the troubled Hunter frigate projects. Be that as it may, if the government does all or most of the things outlined in this column, it will have made a historic contribution to Australian security.
Sheridan is an idiot. he may be correct about the recommendations but his take on it is so wrong in so many ways.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I am surprised at the small size of the Australian OPV fleet. The Australian EEZ is approx. 8.5 million square kilometers, the third biggest in the world. As comparison, Norway's EEZ is approx. 2.4 million square kilometers. Countries with the Largest Exclusive Economic Zones

Norway has 9 OPVs of various classes, and another 5 smaller boats (761t) that are operating close to the coast. The "ocean-going" OPVS vary quite a lot in size and capabilities, but mainly 3,200t - 6,500t ships.

3 of the existing OPVs are being replaced by the new Jan Mayen class with an overall length of 136.4m. The full load displacement: 9,800t (some sources say 10,400t). The ships will have the capacity to accommodate up to 100 people.

The ships will be equipped with hull-mounted SS1221 sonars "principally devised for ASW operations and capable of detecting torpedoes or other small objects". "KONGSBERG to supply Norwegian Coastguard vessels with sonars for multiple operations

The vessels will be fitted with TRS-3D radars that also include a secondary radar MSSR 2000 I for identification-friend-or-foe (IFF). The ships will be equipped with 9LV FCS from Saab, including the Ceros 200 fire control director.
The ships have storage rooms designed to store torpedoes and mines. They can fit two "NH-90 sized" helicopter, or one AW101 sized helicopter.

Range is not known, but "endurance" is 8 weeks.

The ships also have CBRN protection, and hospital facilities.


Many details are not known about the Jan Mayen class, however, the sensors, the storage rooms for torpedoes and mines, give an indication that they may rapidly be turned into a very "special" OPV should the need arise. I do not know if they are built according to "military spec" -- I certainly hope so. The predecessors had Mistral for air defense. Not sure what the plan is for the Jan Mayen class, perhaps something similar to Mistral?

One weak point with these ships is that the originally planned 57mm cannon was replaced by a 40mm.

Perhaps Australia would benefit of having more OPVs, perhaps a second class that is much larger, more capable, and with greater endurance, that would offer some extra flexibility. Also, having a much larger OPV with more "punch" might come in handy if you need to deal with a handful of fishing vessels from another nation protected by something like this: Zhaotou-class patrol cutter - Wikipedia or this: China has commissioned Haixun 09 10,000 tones patrol class vessel
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So Army is being reorganised yet again, with no tank support for infantry?
We will have 2 LHDs and 2 support vessels capable of deploying some boxers (huge soft targets compared to tanks) some bushmasters and SPGs and light infantry?
Suicide battle groups.
The RAAF needs the extra F35s and I hope they keep the 18Fs and Gs as well.
As for the corvettes, well, better than opvs, but again I hope not at the expense of the Hunters.
When will this review be completed?
Maybe RAAF will need 2 more MRTTs and another wedgetail as well.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Prior to Afghanistan, Canada was dumping its old Leo 1 fleet and planning on high mobility gun platforms. As it turned out neither were suitable and an emergency buy of Leo 2s was necessary. Ukraine is just the latest example that tanks still have an important role for certain battlefield situations as long as they are used correctly.
 

Anthony_B_78

Active Member
So Army is being reorganised yet again, with no tank support for infantry?
We will have 2 LHDs and 2 support vessels capable of deploying some boxers (huge soft targets compared to tanks) some bushmasters and SPGs and light infantry?
Suicide battle groups.
The RAAF needs the extra F35s and I hope they keep the 18Fs and Gs as well.
As for the corvettes, well, better than opvs, but again I hope not at the expense of the Hunters.
When will this review be completed?
Maybe RAAF will need 2 more MRTTs and another wedgetail as well.
If you read the article, I think the comment about parking the tank is deliberate hyperbole. In the detail, what he says is there will be a cut to Land 400 Phase 3 to no more than 300. As others have said, the contract is signed for the new Abrams.

As for reorganising, cutting the IFV buy down from 450 to 300 may simply mean one mechanised battalion re-roles to light / motorised, which, I would argue, makes some sense.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
a small question, how pray tell do you add more missiles to the ANZAC. class, given the existing weight restrictions ?
I don't think that the intention is to add more to loadout, but to dramatically increase warstocks, since the Anzacs will be significant shooters in the RAN - at least for the foreseeable future
MB
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If you read the article, I think the comment about parking the tank is deliberate hyperbole. In the detail, what he says is there will be a cut to Land 400 Phase 3 to no more than 300. As others have said, the contract is signed for the new Abrams.

As for reorganising, cutting the IFV buy down from 450 to 300 may simply mean one mechanised battalion re-roles to light / motorised, which, I would argue, makes some sense.
The standard line of BS the Australian is pushing these days is that Ukraine has shown that heavy armour is unsurvivable and obsolete. In actual fact what it has shown is when used predictably and without adequate support, loses are high.

What has also been shown in Ukraine's highly effective counter offensive is combined arms still works, in particular, reconnaissance by fire using highly mobile forces, supported by tanks ifvs, APCs and indirect fires still work, and that thunder runs still work.

The Murdoch media are cherry picking again and missing the point that western doctrine is highly effective and relies on combined arms and a balanced force.

There almost seems to be a homoerotic attraction to special forces and fighter pilots in a lot of the writing. Maybe they daydream of running through the jungle, shirtless, with a knife between their teeth.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
a small question, how pray tell do you add more missiles to the ANZAC. class, given the existing weight restrictions ?
While you're right, of course, I'm afraid your post has got detached from Morgo's post it was replying to. I had to hunt for it.
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
A decent twitter thread on the subject of the recently discussed article
(Just posting the initial tweet and will quote the text from the rest of the thread)
2/ There is a sense in the current debate that we know exactly what the next war will be. Look at the White Papers of the 1980s & 1990s to see how wrong we got it. We are repeating the same mistake by thinking we can predict the next fight. Apparently it’s only air and sea!

3/ It will result in an ADF that lacks adaptive capacity because we have only prepared it to fight at sea and in the air. Wars might be fought in these domains; they are never won there. But once removed, you cannot rebuild high level land warfighting skills quickly.

4/ The Army I joined was the result of similar judgements by commentators and a small band of academics and public servants in the 1980s. Essentially they believed that the Army would not have to fight again.

5/ It was a small, hollow institution with no modern capability, and we had to work extraordinarily hard to rebuild for East Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan. I went on this journey. It was very, very tough.

6/ So my first overall critique is that we must have a broader debate on the future war environment, which is evidence based (not oped based) and backed up with experimentation. It must result in a force that can fight in all domains & adapt to the unknown / strategic surprise.

7/ My second overall critique is the silly nature of some recent op-eds on tanks and armoured vehicles. Let’s be clear - no modern army, regardless of their geography, eschews tanks, artillery, long range rockets, IFVs and lots of infantry.

8/ Are they heavy? Yes. But so are C17 airlifters (which can only be used on a certain % of airfields) and ships. But no one judges them by weight, but by the capability they bring to a fight. Why the double standard in using this measure only for the Army?

9/ Armoured vehicles are also an essential hub in a digitally connected force. Modern battlefield C2 systems need power and protection. Generally armoured vehicles are good for this. And, these armoured vehicles will be hubs for our future uncrewed ground & air swarms.

10/ Another point on weight. The capacity of our extant naval amphibious fleet to carry them is a meaningless measure. No army in the world, and not even the US Marines, designs itself around the carrying capacity of peacetime amphibious fleets.

11/ Armies are instead designed around their core mission, which is close combat. We sort out shipping based on the mass required for the mission on the ground on the other side of a sea transit. This lesson is in the history books for those who care to read.

12/ But what about the Marines, some say? Shouldn’t we be more like them? The answer is an emphatic no. I have lived at Quantico and have many Marine friends. But the only reason they can exist and experiment with their force structure is because of the existence of the US Army.

13/ The Marines new warfighting concept is based on working with the US Navy and Army. And if they get in trouble, they have these much larger services to augment their combat power. We won’t always have this option.

14/ So mindlessly copying the Marines, without understanding how they fit into a larger US warfighting system, without understanding their culture, and not understanding how much they rely on Navy and Army logistics and systems, is not only wrong. It would be reckless.

15/ That doesn’t mean we don’t require amphibious capacity. We do. But it must be balanced with our ability to actually fight on land. You know, where the people are, where most of the enemy will always be, and where wars are decided by politicians.

16/ A final point on Marines. Have a look at their landing operations in 1942 and 1945. They gradually got heavier as they learned the lessons of island hopping. By the end of the war, they were landing in heavily armoured tracked landing craft. Do we need to relearn this lesson?

17/ Finally, we have to understand how everyone else expects to fight. Every significant military force in the Indo Pacific is modernising their armoured vehicle fleets. They are doing this because they see a capable, lethal and armoured land force as central to future conflict.

18/ But such forces are also a part of conventional deterrence (a theory Australia lacks). And, most large regional nations understand that despite there being a lot of water around them, heavy hitting land forces are needed.

19/ Australia is the only country that has a very different understanding to this. Despite the silly op-eds, we need a broader and more lethal range of capabilities to provide government with the broadest array of options for land operations.

20/ We can’t gamble on the next war being in just one or two domains. This is not what the evidence tells us. The Chinese haven’t only modernized their navy and Air Force. They have massively upgraded and up-gunned their army and the capacity to deploy it overseas.

21/ So we must hedge against many threats, not just the ones that are more comfortable for cubicle-based analysts and pundits to understand.

22/ Every generation for the past century has flirted with the ‘death from above’ idea in the hope of not having to engage in the messy business that is close combat. As history shows, it never works out that way.

23/ This doesn’t mean the Army isn’t up for new tech like long range missiles, robots, AI etc. It is! And it also up for new ideas and new organisational approaches, as well as assessing the balance of crewed v uncrewed armoured combat vehicles.

24/ But getting rid of tanks & armoured vehicles, and the capability they provide, condemns future generations of Australian soldiers to combat disadvantages which many commentators overlook - and would not permit in other domains.

25/ Australian taxpayers deserve a more informed debate on the right balance of capability for Australia’s defence. Every thoughtful, capable military institution doing serious future planning has capable land, air, sea & cyber warfighting capability. We should too. End.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
I am making the assumption that Sheridan is an idiot, but an idiot who is talking to people who know things, and hence we should give credibility to some of the things he says about the findings of the DSR (if not his interpretations, which are stupid).

With that in mind a few observations:


The DSR will rightly recommend reduced investment in armour – tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and similar beasts
I take this to be what others have said - existing tank buys will be honoured, no new tanks bought, cutbacks in IFVs. Hopefully the “similar beasts” - presumably SPHs, engineering and recovery vehicles - won’t be badly cut.


The DSR also recommends substantial action for our northern air force bases. Some are shabby and in a poor state of readiness. None is hardened.
Hard to argue with this. My only question is whether Cocos/Keeling, Christmas and Manus Islands are included? Could be very expensive indeed, but worth it if we can make them defensible.


Luerssens already makes proper combat corvettes, just 10m longer than our OPVs
Looks like you may be getting your wish @Volkodav ! Presumably he is talking about the Bulgarian MMPVs, which NVL Group’s website quotes a range of 3,100nm. Fine for the Black Sea, not so much the Indo-Pacific. I wonder how much scope there is to readily increase fuel capacity?
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The standard line of BS the Australian is pushing these days is that Ukraine has shown that heavy armour is unsurvivable and obsolete. In actual fact what it has shown is when used predictably and without adequate support, loses are high.

What has also been shown in Ukraine's highly effective counter offensive is combined arms still works, in particular, reconnaissance by fire using highly mobile forces, supported by tanks ifvs, APCs and indirect fires still work, and that thunder runs still work.

The Murdoch media are cherry picking again and missing the point that western doctrine is highly effective and relies on combined arms and a balanced force.

There almost seems to be a homoerotic attraction to special forces and fighter pilots in a lot of the writing. Maybe they daydream of running through the jungle, shirtless, with a knife between their teeth.
"There almost seems to be a homoerotic attraction to special forces and fighter pilots in a lot of the writing. Maybe they daydream of running through the jungle, shirtless, with a knife between their teeth."

Reply of the month - choked on this mornings coffee and muesli when I read that line.
Greg Sheridan will never look the same.

Cheers S
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sheridan is an idiot, tanks are too vulnerable therefore we should send infantry into battle without adequate protection but at the same time we should harden our fixed sites. WTF!

The secret isnt lots of weak forces operating from fortresses, it capable, complementary, diverse but balanced forces, using, flexibility, mobility, reach and movement.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Sheridan is an idiot, tanks are too vulnerable therefore we should send infantry into battle without adequate protection but at the same time we should harden our fixed sites. WTF!

The secret isnt lots of weak forces operating from fortresses, it capable, complementary, diverse but balanced forces, using, flexibility, mobility, reach and movement.
How many times have Armies and Militaries been written off by so called "experts" in the last 100 years. First it was late WW1 and Tanks meant Infantry not needed, then the 1930s, Bombers made Armies obsolete, then the 1950s and no req for Fighters as all future wars will be just people pushing buttons to launch missiles, then the 90s, no req for militaries at all as the Soviet Bloc is no more.
Loved his comment about the OPVs being the size of Frigates, absolutely clueless. About the smallest ship anyone calls a Frigate today is the Sigma 10513 Frigates of the Indonesian Navy, 25m longer and a 1000t greater displacement.
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
The standard line of BS the Australian is pushing these days is that Ukraine has shown that heavy armour is unsurvivable and obsolete. In actual fact what it has shown is when used predictably and without adequate support, loses are high.

What has also been shown in Ukraine's highly effective counter offensive is combined arms still works, in particular, reconnaissance by fire using highly mobile forces, supported by tanks ifvs, APCs and indirect fires still work, and that thunder runs still work.

The Murdoch media are cherry picking again and missing the point that western doctrine is highly effective and relies on combined arms and a balanced force.

There almost seems to be a homoerotic attraction to special forces and fighter pilots in a lot of the writing. Maybe they daydream of running through the jungle, shirtless, with a knife between their teeth.
Im not convinced of a lot of the Australians defence articles, Greg Sheridans columns in particular.
Far too much of it reads like a Dan Brown 'techno thriller' rather than reasoned analysis, and a lot of it seems rather disconnected from practical realities; Sheridans veiws on the OPV's, especially, seem to be a rehash of the Seaprite debacle, which he seems to be blissfully unaware of.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Im not convinced of a lot of the Australians defence articles, Greg Sheridans columns in particular.
Far too much of it reads like a Dan Brown 'techno thriller' rather than reasoned analysis, and a lot of it seems rather disconnected from practical realities; Sheridans veiws on the OPV's, especially, seem to be a rehash of the Seaprite debacle, which he seems to be blissfully unaware of.
It absolutely does my head in, just because you can bolt a drone launcher or missile onto a Hilux or patrol boat doesn't mean that's the best way to deploy and support it.

The USN was successfully using UAVs from literal battleships in the 91 gulf war and these clowns are talking as if it new.

It never crosses their minds that if you incorporate these evolving capabilities into existing capabilities, you end up with something better overall. Instead, every single time they want to get back to light forces, light frigates and big heavy jet fighters operating from fixed bases.

In a nutshell, their fantasy is, when you force everyone and everything else to become "light" it frees up money for heavy fighters and bombers, as well as other toys manufactured by companies that send them on junkets.
 

Depot Dog

Active Member
Personally I find this Greg Sheridan offensive from the opening sentence quote: "The good news is, it seems the tank is gone. ". He is dancing on the grave of the tank. What happens in a future pickle if the military find out we needed those tanks. Will he report in the Australian he was wrong, probaly not. The guy is a tool.

Regards
DD
 

Depot Dog

Active Member
If the Greg Sheridan report is based on the DSR. Then there is alot to debate in the DSR. I disagree scaling back Army fighting vehicals. I also disagree with the critism of the Hunter quote:"with the overweight, under-gunned Hunter frigates we are going to get on Star Trek time from the British". That is unfair as we don't know the final design. In Australia we seem to bag our ships built in our shipyards, until the final product is released.

Hardening our bases, extra F35 and local missile manufacture are worth a discussion. Hell my first posts were about put a F35 squdron in Perth to protect the sub base. Yeh I know some topics are already being discussed. This will put a new perspective on the debate.

I did notice no mention of the B21. Interesting....

Regards
DD
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
If the Greg Sheridan report is based on the DSR. Then there is alot to debate in the DSR. I disagree scaling back Army fighting vehicals. I also disagree with the critism of the Hunter quote:"with the overweight, under-gunned Hunter frigates we are going to get on Star Trek time from the British". That is unfair as we don't know the final design. In Australia we seem to bag our ships built in our shipyards, until the final product is released.

Hardening our bases, extra F35 and local missile manufacture are worth a discussion. Hell my first posts were about put a F35 squdron in Perth to protect the sub base. Yeh I know some topics are already being discussed. This will put a new perspective on the debate.

I did notice no mention of the B21. Interesting....

Regards
DD
Again, with the criticism of "under-gunned" Hunters, Sheridan is showing his lack of understanding, especially If he is talking about the 32 VLS Cells that everyone thinks, it's going to be. As has been said plenty of times the Hunters are primarily ASW Frigates, more VLS Cells are not going to do anything for taking out Subs, the ability to carry multiple air, surface and subsurface Drones are going to. The Hunters are big for a reason that has little to do with the number of VLS Cells.
 
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