Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[chis73]

If anyone is interested in a little light reading, the RNZN has released Vol 1. No.1 of their new 'Professional Journal of the Royal New Zealand Navy' (link). There was mention of this publication in the Navy Today magazine a month or two back, but then nothing - looks like it's finally been made public (it's dated December 2020). AIUI, it will be 2 issues a year. It's great when we can get Defence/NZDF to at least put out new ideas and fresh thinking in public once in a while - they should do it more often.

Chis73

 

[Shanesworld]

Very interesting. Thanks for the link. But I am concerned about the constant focus on affordability, and having quality capabilities to complete missions and keep our people alive is secondary. It's almost like they are talking themselves out of what we know we need so as to bend over double to appear reasonable.

That isn't what leaders should do.

 

[ngatimozart]

If anyone is interested in a little light reading, the RNZN has released Vol 1. No.1 of their new 'Professional Journal of the Royal New Zealand Navy' (link). There was mention of this publication in the Navy Today magazine a month or two back, but then nothing - looks like it's finally been made public (it's dated December 2020). AIUI, it will be 2 issues a year. It's great when we can get Defence/NZDF to at least put out new ideas and fresh thinking in public once in a while - they should do it more often.

Chis73

Cool link and thanks. It's interesting reading and I am slowly working my way through it.

Very interesting. Thanks for the link. But I am concerned about the constant focus on affordability, and having quality capabilities to complete missions and keep our people alive is secondary. It's almost like they are talking themselves out of what we know we need so as to bend over double to appear reasonable.

That isn't what leaders should do.

I don't think so much, but as I say I am slowly working my way through it. I have just finished Capt Watts article on the Future Fleet. There is some that I have agreed with and some that I haven't. Having said that, there is quite a good bit of background information there. However one theme does flow through the articles that I have read is the great power rivalry, increasing strategic tensions, the maritime security threat and how it is both a RNZN and RNZAF response that is required.

 

[Rob c]

Very interesting. Thanks for the link. But I am concerned about the constant focus on affordability, and having quality capabilities to complete missions and keep our people alive is secondary. It's almost like they are talking themselves out of what we know we need so as to bend over double to appear reasonable.

That isn't what leaders should do.

I think that when defence is discussed in NZ and the affordability question is raised, what is really being referred to is not what we as a country can or cannot afford but rather what is politically affordable. This can be divided into two parts, which is what the public will politically tolerate and what amount of money the government of the day don't want to spend so more is available for projects to increase their next election prospects. I think that the lack of any real strong negative comment on the 20B capital project spend would indicate that the main problem is the politicians.

 

[Gracie1234]

Thank you for sharing the link, i have just read the first few pages. It seems quite clearly stated that the current funding level will not be enough to achieve the current policy objectives. If funding is not increased then NZ will have to give up control of our current maritime territory and our ability to influence outcomes. It looks to me like a request for additional funding is being developed if we wish to protect what is currently ours.

 

[John Fedup]

I think that when defence is discussed in NZ and the affordability question is raised, what is really being referred to is not what we as a country can or cannot afford but rather what is politically affordable. This can be divided into two parts, which is what the public will politically tolerate and what amount of money the government of the day don't want to spend so more is available for projects to increase their next election prospects. I think that the lack of any real strong negative comment on the 20B capital project spend would indicate that the main problem is the politicians.

Politically affordable, not unique to NZ as recent defence issues in the UK and Canada illustrate.

 

[JohnJT]

Argentina are in a similar position to NZ, with a large maritime area of responsibility and needing to operate in Antarctic waters. Their solution was to purchase four Kership 90m OPVs. The first ship is the ex-French L'Adroit and the other three are new builds. The new builds are ice strengthened to operate in the southern ocean and be able to support bases in Antarctica. These are interesting vessels with a helicopter deck and hangar, small crew (40 + extra berthing for 30), long endurance (30 days and 7000nm) and two 9m RHIBS launched from rear ramps.

The total cost of the project is 318M euros (approx. NZ$533M for the four vessels).

The vessels are electronically advanced, but lightly armed. Their main armament is a Marlin 30mm gun. I think a good option for greater firepower would be the new ultra lightweight, non-deck penetrating 76mm Sovraponte (which I posted about here).

Argentina Buys Four OPVs from France for €318M Euros

Naval Group launches the production of offshore patrol vessels for the Argentinian Navy - EDR Magazine

Paris, 14 January 2019 – Following the enactment of the contract with Argentina, Naval Group has started off work on

www.edrmagazine.eu

Kership armed vessels up to 95m

Ships dedicated to state action at sea

www.kership.com

 

[ngatimozart]

Argentina are in a similar position to NZ, with a large maritime area of responsibility and needing to operate in Antarctic waters. Their solution was to purchase four Kership 90m OPVs. The first ship is the ex-French L'Adroit and the other three are new builds. The new builds are ice strengthened to operate in the southern ocean and be able to support bases in Antarctica. These are interesting vessels with a helicopter deck and hangar, small crew (40 + extra berthing for 30), long endurance (30 days and 7000nm) and two 9m RHIBS launched from rear ramps.

The total cost of the project is 318M euros (approx. NZ$533M for the four vessels).

The vessels are electronically advanced, but lightly armed. Their main armament is a Marlin 30mm gun. I think a good option for greater firepower would be the new ultra lightweight, non-deck penetrating 76mm Sovraponte (which I posted about here).

Argentina Buys Four OPVs from France for €318M Euros

Naval Group launches the production of offshore patrol vessels for the Argentinian Navy - EDR Magazine

Paris, 14 January 2019 – Following the enactment of the contract with Argentina, Naval Group has started off work on

www.edrmagazine.eu

Kership armed vessels up to 95m

Ships dedicated to state action at sea

www.kership.com

I think that the Argies wouldn't been able to afford any more. Their economy is in pretty bad shape and they are basically broke. Also the Poms tend to veto anything that gives them a capability of striking at the Falklands.

 

[ngatimozart]

I have finished reading the first issue of the RNZN Journal. I will do a quick precis here with a detailed response later in the NZDF thread because it can equally apply to the RNZAF as well.

The articles cover the gamut of arguments that have been presented in recent years as to the raison d' etre for the RNZN. A couple of posters here have commented that they think that it focuses on costs and affordability, which is interesting because there is an article by a former Treasury economist who actually worked in the Treasury Vote: Defence section that sheds a lot of light on how to get Treasury on your side. That in itself was a revelation for me and anyone who knows me knows of my unbridled fondness of Treasury

Other articles cover the usual things and one states that a big problem for the RNZN and NZDF is the lack of direction given by successive governments in their DWPs and Defence Statements. They aren't precise enough and that leaves to much room for confusion, especially when capability planning. For example what does the South Pacific reset actually mean? What does more NZDF activity in the Southern Ocean and Antarctica mean? What does defending our economic activities mean? What is the RNZN's main purpose. Is it a Navy or is it a Coastguard?

It's definitely well worth the read and I would thoroughly recommend reading it. There is definitely some good background knowledge in it, plus much to give food for thought.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

A couple of posters here have commented that they think that it focuses on costs and affordability, which is interesting because there is an article by a former Treasury economist who actually worked in the Treasury Vote: Defence section that sheds a lot of light on how to get Treasury on your side. That in itself was a revelation for me and anyone who knows me knows of my unbridled fondness of Treasury

Yes I read that and was bit of an eye opener for me as well...

Other articles cover the usual things and one states that a big problem for the RNZN and NZDF is the lack of direction given by successive governments in their DWPs and Defence Statements. They aren't precise enough and that leaves to much room for confusion, especially when capability planning. For example what does the South Pacific reset actually mean? What does more NZDF activity in the Southern Ocean and Antarctica mean? What does defending our economic activities mean? What is the RNZN's main purpose. Is it a Navy or is it a Coastguard?

I have been saying the same thing basically since I left the service in 19-- mumble mumble mumble??? there has been no clear direction for the navy each new government and DWP they kinda wanna do this and kinda wanna do that... not really sure what they want... It has only been in the last few years there has been a bit of direction but even then it is a bit wishy washy...

Things that we buy that don't sit well with the rest of the NZDF as a whole, whether it is we have no way of quickly deploying said equipment, or the said equipment is just not suitable for what has been asked of it, or totally not buying enough of (P8's, NH-90)or buying too many (NZLAV's) etc. Taking way to long to make decisions to replace equipment and or upgrade,

I know the direction I would take our "armed forces" sorry "defence force" but I am not in parliament ... :-/

 

[MrConservative]

For example what does the South Pacific reset actually mean?

The focus on the South Pacific has been in there since the DCP nearly 20 years ago.

In my view it has been the narrative "code phrase" to hide the fact that successive governments have used it to legitimise spending SFA on Defence!

 

[swerve]

I think that the Argies wouldn't been able to afford any more. Their economy is in pretty bad shape and they are basically broke. Also the Poms tend to veto anything that gives them a capability of striking at the Falklands.

We can't veto it unless it contains British parts (e.g. Gripen E, which has a mainly British radar & significant other parts) or is produced by an ally willing to listen to our objections.

All Argentina needs to do is find a supplier able & willing* to sell them something without British content. If the Argentineans were willing to buy Russian or Chinese, for example & they're willing to sell . . .

*Some may be able but not willing.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

We can't veto it unless it contains British parts (e.g. Gripen E, which has a mainly British radar & significant other parts) or is produced by an ally willing to listen to our objections.

Not necessarily just allies. China seems reluctant to market the JF-17 or any export versions of its ships to Argentina. I've often wondered if we might have a private understanding with them that if they don't sell important equipment to Argentina we won't do the same with Taiwan.

 

[ngatimozart]

Not necessarily just allies. China seems reluctant to market the JF-17 or any export versions of its ships to Argentina. I've often wondered if we might have a private understanding with them that if they don't sell important equipment to Argentina we won't do the same with Taiwan.

Or the Argies inability to pay. But then the PRC uses debt trap diplomacy. Maybe the Argies didn't like the terms.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Or the Argies inability to pay.

Maybe but they seemed to be negotiating in earnest over the T-50 FA-50 until the UK made South Korea pull the plug. I don't think the unit cost for that and the JF-17 is so dissimilar.

EDIT: Sorry, I did mean the FA-50 not T-50.

 

[swerve]

What Western manufacturers of ejection seats are there apart from Martin-Baker? That firm must give the British government quite a lot of leverage - as long as they don't overuse it. I'm not sure what other British stuff it has.

Wasn't it the FA-50 that Argentina wanted, the combat version?

 

[Rob c]

What Western manufacturers of ejection seats are there apart from Martin-Baker? That firm must give the British government quite a lot of leverage - as long as they don't overuse it. I'm not sure what other British stuff it has.

Wasn't it the FA-50 that Argentina wanted, the combat version?

Collins aerospace make the ACE's ejection seats which are widely used in US aircraft, and I have heard of a company called Ingersoll is in the business too but don,t know much about them. Douglas built a large number of the Escapac series of seats which were fitted to a large selection of aircraft including the A4, A7 F15a A10 and others, but I don't know if this series is still being made.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ok time to get back on topic please.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Really nice pic of HMNZS Aotearoa in the Bay of Islands ahead of Waitangi Day Celebrations.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357471888776122369

A short video of her as well

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357473130264944642

 

[BullyHayes]

OPV Otago is here also - they staged a VIP event on the helo deck last night whilst moored against Opua wharf - and are now anchored off Waitangi