Are the J’s we are buying going to be capable of being refuelled?
I agree the A330 MRTT would be a better bet than the KC-46, it’s newer more capable aircraft.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
Are the J’s we are buying going to be capable of being refuelled?
I agree the A330 MRTT would be a better bet than the KC-46, it’s newer more capable aircraft.
I posted a photo earlier in the thread of a C-130J with the markings etc., for boom AAR refueling and I would think that it would be cheaper to leave the capability in rather than have LM remove it from the aircraft. Since we most likely will be going through FMS we'd probably be acquiring stock standard C-130J-30s. Having said that with this current govt who knows; they aren't very professional at all. It's not their politics, it's their lack of organisational skills which have gone walkabout well beyond the black stump.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The MRTT is used by your neighbouring allies, it’s larger capacity and range is ideal for the vast Pacific region, and as it has already proven itself, it is a less risky option. Given Boeing’s troubles of late, the last point is significant.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
A few recent RNZAF news stories.
Air force looks to acquire P-8A Poseidon aircraft | Play Stuff
Stuff website (above) has a minute of footage of a US Navy P-8 visiting Ohakea, with voice-over from RNZAF officer. Described as a familiarisation visit, presumably related to the link below.
Building a base for the P-8A Poseidon Fleet
NZDF airdrops over three tonnes of supplies in Raoul Island
Elsewhere, RNZAF bombs Department of Conservation workers with pallets of cement!
Air force looks to acquire P-8A Poseidon aircraft | Play Stuff
Stuff website (above) has a minute of footage of a US Navy P-8 visiting Ohakea, with voice-over from RNZAF officer. Described as a familiarisation visit, presumably related to the link below.
Building a base for the P-8A Poseidon Fleet
NZDF airdrops over three tonnes of supplies in Raoul Island
Elsewhere, RNZAF bombs Department of Conservation workers with pallets of cement!
Yep, and it looks like our govt in its infiniite all knowing wisdom isn't going to buy AShM for the P-8s. I suspect two reasons: cost and they don't have a spine. Also it's interesting that the PRC Vice President is having a meeting in Samoa with the eight Pacific Island nations that recognise it. Apparently the meeting is about aid and fostering relationships. Also the PRC and the US will be front and centre at this weeks Pacific Island Leaders meeting, much to the annoyance of the Pacific Island leaders. PNG has asked the PRC for assistance in refinancing its AU$11.8 billion public debt and if the PRC does that is going to create a security and defence headache for both Australia and NZ. If the PRC also gain a defence foothold in Samoa or Tonga, then it's very close to home for us.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Boeing contracted to add sixth workstation to USN, RAAF Poseidons - NWI - Naval Warfare - Shephard Media
Confirmation that NZ's P-8s will come in the latest six-workstation version. This article explains that the earlier US and Australian versions will be upgraded to this standard. No word on any of the other users, but likely they will do the same.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
RNZAF Orion finds fire-damaged Chinese fishing vessel
RNZAF Orion finds last crew member of fire-damaged Chinese fishing vessel
Meanwhile, a solid effort from the trusty P-3C. Looking at the state of that Chinese vessel, the crew must have been helluva relieved when the Air Force turned up.
Boeing completes RNZAF P-3K2 Orion UWISR upgrade | Jane's 360
Boeing: Boeing Australia - Feature Story
RNZAF Orion finds last crew member of fire-damaged Chinese fishing vessel
Meanwhile, a solid effort from the trusty P-3C. Looking at the state of that Chinese vessel, the crew must have been helluva relieved when the Air Force turned up.
Boeing completes RNZAF P-3K2 Orion UWISR upgrade | Jane's 360
Boeing: Boeing Australia - Feature Story
After seeing the snippet from Janes (top), I looked at the Boeing website and found a more detailed story. The upgrade is being presented very much as a 'pathway to the P-8' measure. That is presumably to forestall criticism of installing high-end technology on aircraft that are due to come out of service in the relatively near future. It is incleaer whether any of the equipmment will be able to be swapped across to the P-8s when they arrive,
I don't think that they will be cross decked to the Poseidons because from what I understand, from the press release by the Minister etc., the Poseidons will be the standard ones off the production line without any bespoke mods. I think that the sensors and the computers etc., from the Orions should be crossdecked to another RNZAF platform such as the KA-350i or similar for EEZ surveillance.
milliGal
Member
With the the Australian Army electing to replace their Tiger's so early in their lifecycle, I have been wondering whether this presents another opportunity for the RNZAF to obtain some second hand Australian equipment at a discount price (similar to the Australian Seasprite acquisition).
The Tiger has been fraught with problems in Australian service (hence their early replacement), but from what I understand these problems are now mostly resolved, and I presume they would be looking to offload them once their replacement arrives in the early to mid 2020's. NZ would obviously not be interested in taking all 22, but if we got the chance to take 5 or so off the Australian's hands that may be an opportunity too good even for our politicians to pass up. They could prove to be a valuable asset, providing armed escorts to our NH90's, as well as performing overwatch, reconnaissance and fire support missions. They could also be deployed on our new sealift vessel from the get go.
Thoughts?
The Tiger has been fraught with problems in Australian service (hence their early replacement), but from what I understand these problems are now mostly resolved, and I presume they would be looking to offload them once their replacement arrives in the early to mid 2020's. NZ would obviously not be interested in taking all 22, but if we got the chance to take 5 or so off the Australian's hands that may be an opportunity too good even for our politicians to pass up. They could prove to be a valuable asset, providing armed escorts to our NH90's, as well as performing overwatch, reconnaissance and fire support missions. They could also be deployed on our new sealift vessel from the get go.
Thoughts?
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I honestly do not think it would be reasonably feasible or wise.
To start with, the Tiger ARH was a new capability introduced to Australia (where there were some lessons learned) which in turn means it would be a new capability for NZ given that the NZDF does not have anything comparable. Given how the NZDF has been having trouble maintaining a number of the existing capabilities, trying to introduce a new one, despite the fact that it might be desired, would likely be a bit too much.
Then there is the helicopter itself, which has had a number of problems. Yes, I believe that Australia at this point has largely resolved them, but NZ would need to be able to establish and maintain what Australia has already achieved, otherwise NZ will run into the same problems. Next is that the helicopters are reaching the point where they need some updates or upgrades, and the cost to do so IIRC was deemed too high and not worth it, since a new replacement helicopter could be had for about the same amount.
Even if NZ could get them at mates rates, I expect the total cost to stand up a Tiger ARH capability would be quite high for the NZDF, which would come at the expense of either current capability, or planned/needed replacements for existing platforms and capabilities.
Kiwigov
Member
Looks like - as anticipated on this Forum - there is increasing commercial (well, Air NZ) pressure for dual-use of Whenuapai Air New Zealand: Auckland could have second commercial airport at Whenuapai
Clearly using the Blenheim model, and given the new Poseidon's are to be based at Ohakea then the use of the airport asset by RNZAF would be expected to decline commensurately. From the strategic pov, imho the Government should grab this proposal with both hands - otherwise pressure to lose Whenuapai to housing (like the lamented Hobsonville) will become overwhelming by the new Infrastructure Commission.
Clearly using the Blenheim model, and given the new Poseidon's are to be based at Ohakea then the use of the airport asset by RNZAF would be expected to decline commensurately. From the strategic pov, imho the Government should grab this proposal with both hands - otherwise pressure to lose Whenuapai to housing (like the lamented Hobsonville) will become overwhelming by the new Infrastructure Commission.
milliGal
Member
Fair points.
The upgrade costs probably would be substantial, as would standing up and maintaining the capability so the financial savings in such a deal may end up being much less than I initially thought. Developing this kind of capability does take time, and you don't want to be waiting until after the shit hits the fan to start building it up, but with so many other higher priority projects going on in the next decade (and no expressed desire for this capability in the DCP) you may be right that the prospects of such an acquisition are slim.
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I would also expect that a minimum number of helicopters would really be needed to develop and stand up a capability. Given the NZDF experience with just five Sea Sprites, I would anticipate that NZ would really need to purchase something like 8 Tigers to ensure that there is enough to meet the maintenance, training and operational needs.
That number becomes significant because the more aircraft acquired, the larger both the infrastructure and personnel requirements become, which require time and resources to first raise, and then further resources to sustain.
I think arming some of the A109 helicopters with removable weaponry might be more feasible, if such a capability was determined to be important enough.
What I would be concerned about happening though would be armed helicopters taking the place of a third RNZN frigate, or a proper amphibious replacement for Canterbury, or cutting short the number of airlifters, etc.
Whenuapai airport proposal 'unrealistic' - local councillor
ANZ interest previously reported this thread in #7851
Stuff is reporting that the local Council are getting a wee bit frothy at the mouth at the proposal of ANZ formulating a business case to operate some limited domestic flights from Whenuapai.
In the article, there is a photo of a IL76 on finals, with a caption that Whenuapai is operating as an Air Force Base. One would have thought that they would have managed to get a photo of an RNZAF aircraft and not what appears to be a Chinese IL76.
ANZ interest previously reported this thread in #7851
Stuff is reporting that the local Council are getting a wee bit frothy at the mouth at the proposal of ANZ formulating a business case to operate some limited domestic flights from Whenuapai.
In the article, there is a photo of a IL76 on finals, with a caption that Whenuapai is operating as an Air Force Base. One would have thought that they would have managed to get a photo of an RNZAF aircraft and not what appears to be a Chinese IL76.
I left a tart comment regarding the photo. Haven't been back to see if it's been published.
Ouch; NZDF has 20 days to appeal the ruling
Whenuapai airbase loses Environment Court noise complaint
Grrr grump grump grump.
We can’t effect the future profits of a property developer now can we.
The planning authority needs to grow a set of nurries and tell him to shove it.
Any expansion of the base is surely beneficial to the local economy, maybe this needs to be pushed harder but hey! why do a clutch of environmental lawyers need to worry about the real world?
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I'm trying to remember my Resource Management Act stuff, but it's been a few years, and I was more into the natural hazards side of it from a science pov. I am not sure if the Environment Court has the final say or the case can progress to the Court of Appeal and then the Supreme Court. Mr C may be able to enlighten us on that.
Unfortunately something like this has been on the cards for a long time and had to happen. Going off topic, this particular situation speaks to the peculiarity of Kiwis fixation with single level single dwelling sections and continual unsustainable urban sprawl. Queenstown and, I think, Tauranga, are more expensive to live in than Melbourne now, because Kiwis absolutely refuse to adopt urban infilling and intensification.
The EC is just the court of first instance and is normally heard by a single Environment Court judge with two lay commissioners. Then it will go to the CoA under appeal on a point of law and if that is appealed then it is on to the Supreme Court in front of a full bench of five SC Justices.
Of course s5 and s6 of the Defence Act give the GG as CINC incredible powers on behalf of the Sovereign via the use of orders in council. A seldom used brute force legal way of the GOTD getting its way.
Of course the NIMBY's and Auckland Council got rid of Speedway from Western Springs last year. People had been racing speedway cars and bikes at WS since the 1920's when it was farm land. Of course it had no chance as speedway is a working class blue collar motorsport popular with West Auckland males, whom the luvvies in the inner suburbs despise.
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