Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Massive

Well-Known Member
Why dangle our forces out there, when we can let red do that and destroy their supply chains, and let the emus and kangaroos feast?
It was 30 years ago but I spoke to a Colonel who had commanded 1 Armoured Regiment who said that they had simulated invading Australia from North to South and that it was simply too hard on vehicles.

Newer vehicles might make it possible. In my opinion the response to this is to maximise friction for any invading force. ATACMS is an excellent example as to how this might be done.

Regards,

Massive
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
We have to defence against a red strike. Missile defence is a joke (and I firmly believe it's a bottomless money pit that the ADF should be avoiding) and for us to put any reasonable assets in the north will demand similar assets already be placed in Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne as a minimum. That's a huge, huge chunk of money.
Do we need to do this though - what is being defended?

The ADF has only one truly strategic asset - the subs at HMAS Stirling. This is the critical asset to protect from a strike - air, cruise missile and ballistic - which would be a combination of IAD and ASW.

Regards,

Massive
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I dislike it, but also confess to having issues with Dibb still being around and the fact that most of these "great" strategic thinkers recently have just written - meh. We are still picking up the pieces across the force 30 years on....

I love northern Australia. I've been posted up there before and would go again in a heartbeat. This includes the family - they love Darwin. But having said that, it has one big problem, 3422 of them actually. It's a long way away. That's before we hit Exmouth, Broome or Kununurra. This distance becomes key for blue and red.

Red: There are two ways of hitting northern Australia, via strike or as an invasion. Both have advantages in that there is little ADF assets there to stop us. There may be a submarine, there is a fighter squadron at Tindal (still 2 800 km away) and there are some Patrol Boats / OPVs. There is also a P-8 operating out of Darwin (that may be near the NW coast), Jindalee and anything on Christmas Island. Using fixed wing is slow - but the first strike may avoid the RAAF deployment of E-7 / KC-30 and go in unscathed. It can't really do anything east of Kununurra, although Darwin is a slim chance. Using missiles is obviously better, but is a political risk.

And...?

You hit some industry around the NW shelf (which is a strike that will hurt the economy a little, but not much compared to the war that red has just started and Australia cannot defend that no matter the investment put in there). But fundamental Australian industry, war making capability or...anything? Nope. In fact, to do this you have had to do something to Indonesia, meaning there is a really good chance your strike has just forced Indonesia into a formal alliance with Australia - which is kinda not good for you. You may have hit Darwin, which would kill a small naval base, some logistics, part of a Brigade (including most of our attack helicopters) and some C2 nodes. That will hurt a little, but honestly, not really (it'll become clear why in Blue)

So. Invade. Let's go bonkers and assume you can put a reinforced Division ashore without the ADF noticing (and can anyone actually do that?). And...? You have to advance 1 500 km to hit Perth, which still hasn't dramatically effected Australia's warfighting potential (although the loss of Stirling will have some operational level impacts), but the Australian centre of gravity is in the south east - the Brisbane-Adelaide-Melbourne triangle. That's more than 4 000 km away - what military can do that on the end of a supply chain open to interdiction through littorals and open ocean? Against an ADF that you cannot hit their bases of operations or supply chains, as they are 1000's of kilometres in front of you. Not even the US! Moving the invasion point from the NW to Darwin still has an impossibly large force advancing more than 3 500 km....

So there is no feasible red option that means anything because it's so far away.

Blue: We have to defence against a red strike. Missile defence is a joke (and I firmly believe it's a bottomless money pit that the ADF should be avoiding) and for us to put any reasonable assets in the north will demand similar assets already be placed in Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne as a minimum. That's a huge, huge chunk of money.

To defend against a fixed wing strike or invasion, you need forces up there. So lets place the E-7s, more F-35, some KC-30 add 9 FSB, get 1 Bde complete back up there and you get what? Well, first is a massive retention problem, second is a vulnerable target to that missile strike and thirdly, you get a bunch of resources on the end of a long, thin supply chain. And that right there is the killer - supporting a warfighting force in north Australia when all the industry, ports, people and infrastructure is in the south east is idiocy. Perhaps for a few weeks, but for months? Permanently? Catastrophically stupid. It takes, at best, four days for big materiel (AFV parts, helicopter parts, ammunition, fuel) to get from Brisbane to Darwin. Maintaining sufficient supplies up there for peacetime op's can be...sporting; in a war is going to be Herculean.

Overall, there is a whole big lot of nothing in Australia. Dibb ignores this. It's funny, because lesson #1 for RMC cadets in DefOps is don't chase ground. That applies strategically and tactically. Why dangle our forces out there, when we can let red do that and destroy their supply chains, and let the emus and kangaroos feast?

Putting some elements in the north is essential for acclimatisation and political reasons. An ADF element in Darwin is vital for military and civil reasons (the latter being more important - there is a need to publicly show Darwin locals are as important to Canberra as Brisbane or Sydney locals) and honestly, is a ball of fun. But just like in 1942 - 1945, the main centres of military power will lie in Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney. There will be secondary nodes in Perth/Fremantle and Townsville. This works offensively and defensively with modern forces as well as 1940s forces. There are few in this country who have actually conceptualised what a modern military chews through in terms of logistics and how that needs to be sustained. It'll be hard doing that when fighting in Dalby, let alone 4 500 km away.
Hi Takao
Thanks for the detailed response.
As I'm sure you know,Dibb has been around for quite some time,so like him or not; agree or disagree with his sentiments, there not disputing he has had a land mark influence on defence that is still being felt.
Yes a lot of the article was to some extent some back slapping of his former vision and current outcomes, but what I do agree with is a concern regarding time and current military capability. Particularly for Army.

As for Blue and Red.
Well yes Australia has a lot of distance, and a lot of nothing..............As the saying goes in the car - " Are we there yet"

Probably too many scenarios to paint regarding defending / attacking the top end.
What I will say is, just as it would be difficult for an attacker transiting the outback to get to the main southern population centres, so would it be in reverse trying to expel some nasty who has successfully parked themselves up north.
A captured Darwin complete with Airport and harbour, plus a RAAF Tindal and Curtain in the bad guys hands would do a lot to bring Canberra to the negotiating table.
Unlikely true!!!!!
Would never happen?????


Regards S
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Takao
Thanks for the detailed response.
As I'm sure you know,Dibb has been around for quite some time,so like him or not; agree or disagree with his sentiments, there not disputing he has had a land mark influence on defence that is still being felt.
Yes a lot of the article was to some extent some back slapping of his former vision and current outcomes, but what I do agree with is a concern regarding time and current military capability. Particularly for Army.

As for Blue and Red.
Well yes Australia has a lot of distance, and a lot of nothing..............As the saying goes in the car - " Are we there yet"

Probably too many scenarios to paint regarding defending / attacking the top end.
What I will say is, just as it would be difficult for an attacker transiting the outback to get to the main southern population centres, so would it be in reverse trying to expel some nasty who has successfully parked themselves up north.
A captured Darwin complete with Airport and harbour, plus a RAAF Tindal and Curtain in the bad guys hands would do a lot to bring Canberra to the negotiating table.
Most definitely.
Unlikely true!!!!!
I would be very hesitant with that claim. The collapse of France in 1940, the successful Japanese conquest of Malaya, Dutch East Indies and Philippines, plus capture of Singapore; the Vietminh victory at Dien Bien Phu, and the ultimate fall of Saigon spring to mind as something that the prevailing western military and political elite firmly believed would never happen, but they did.
Would never happen?????
Regards S
"Would never happen?????" Who's to know. I was never issued with a crystal ball when I got my drivers licence. Possible yes - anything is possible within the laws of physics, but probable? On a list of probabilities it would have to rank a tad or two on the low side.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Sorry mods for just cutting out bits from other publications, but this article in DTR regarding Australia's MBT force and its future, I found quite interesting.

Defence Technology Review : DTR JUL 2019, Page 1

Our humble fleet of 59 MBT's has always looked inadequate on many levels.
Certainly some extra numbers of the existing M1A1 would be prudent even before looking at the upgrade path.
I'm sure we can afford the 29 tanks required to round out and do justice to our armoured capacity.

Regards S
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

Takao

The Bunker Group
Makes even less sense in an age of Shadow, Reaper and Triton...

Regards,

Massive
They are complimentary, not replacement capabilities. The Venn diagram of UAV (including armed ones) and attack helicopters overlaps very little, although in a pinch one can do the job of the other. When you look at rapid response, flexibility of targeting, operations in a comms denied environment the helicopters are the preferred choice. For long-term surveillance, known target types and 24 hr coverage of such, UAVs take over. The requirement for being able to operate a UAV reflects these different roles.

@ASSAIL - you didn't see the "armed attack helicopters" bit? As opposed to the unarmed attack helicopters....o_O
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They are complimentary, not replacement capabilities. The Venn diagram of UAV (including armed ones) and attack helicopters overlaps very little, although in a pinch one can do the job of the other. When you look at rapid response, flexibility of targeting, operations in a comms denied environment the helicopters are the preferred choice. For long-term surveillance, known target types and 24 hr coverage of such, UAVs take over. The requirement for being able to operate a UAV reflects these different roles.

@ASSAIL - you didn't see the "armed attack helicopters" bit? As opposed to the unarmed attack helicopters....o_O
Saw saw that as a slip up. They then reverted back to Armed Recon Helos.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
The Venn diagram of UAV (including armed ones) and attack helicopters overlaps very little, although in a pinch one can do the job of the other.
My point was more that there is a lot of overlap between a recon helicopter and a UAV.

Army needs an attack helicopter - not an armed recon helicopter.

Regards,

Massive
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The ability to control UAVs would appear to strongly favour of-the-shelf Apache.

Not sure about the implications of the Amphibious operations point.

Regards,

Massive
A nice article from the Australian Aviation site regarding the ARH Tiger.
Covers its history and currant status, plus looks to the future and gives a range of options.

Eye on the Tiger: A look at the Army's Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter

Regardless of what platform is chosen, it was interesting that a RFI for 29 aircraft was the number quoted.
I always felt the current number of 22 ARH's was light on, so we are certainly looking at a robust attack capability in the future.

Regards S
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A nice article from the Australian Aviation site regarding the ARH Tiger.
Covers its history and currant status, plus looks to the future and gives a range of options.

Eye on the Tiger: A look at the Army's Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter

Regardless of what platform is chosen, it was interesting that a RFI for 29 aircraft was the number quoted.
I always felt the current number of 22 ARH's was light on, so we are certainly looking at a robust attack capability in the future.

Regards S
Why do you think that they were light on them? The Tiger is a completely new capability for the Army, so it's been a learning curve for it. Just remember that this is a RFI and not a RFP, so numbers and capabilities probably will change along with some pork bellying in the Australisation component. Also hopefully the Army won't get overly adventurous and optimistic in bespoke IT solutions like they did with the Tiger and the RAN did with the Seasprites.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I just wish for once that the ADF/govt would have the nurries to call them what they are - Attack Helicopters - like everyone else has!
Changing the name just in case some luvvies might object is like putting lipstick on a pig.
I would let junior call them anything he wants if he’d just buy some. Sending CH-147s to Mali without proper support (frigging Griffins with 7.62mm guns was BS).
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
Defence Technology Review Twitter page reporting that the first Boxers have arrived in Australia.
25 or so are coming from Europe, rather than being built in Australia, to allow a Boxer cavalry squadron to be available for deployment much earlier than if Army had to wait for Australian built ones. Not sure which Brigade gets them, possibly whichever Brigade becomes the ready brigade in the middle of next year?
Going to be slightly awkward as whichever Cavalry Regiment gets them will have one Boxer Squadron and one ASLAV Squadron.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Defence Technology Review Twitter page reporting that the first Boxers have arrived in Australia.
25 or so are coming from Europe, rather than being built in Australia, to allow a Boxer cavalry squadron to be available for deployment much earlier than if Army had to wait for Australian built ones. Not sure which Brigade gets them, possibly whichever Brigade becomes the ready brigade in the middle of next year?
Going to be slightly awkward as whichever Cavalry Regiment gets them will have one Boxer Squadron and one ASLAV Squadron.
The Phase 1 Boxers will be going to 2/14 LHR. It makes sense as the factory will be just down the road. Hopefully this will also free up a quantity of spares and track km to spread over the remaining ASLAV fleet.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Why do you think that they were light on them? The Tiger is a completely new capability for the Army, so it's been a learning curve for it. Just remember that this is a RFI and not a RFP, so numbers and capabilities probably will change along with some pork bellying in the Australisation component. Also hopefully the Army won't get overly adventurous and optimistic in bespoke IT solutions like they did with the Tiger and the RAN did with the Seasprites.
Agree that the request for information and the 29 platforms quoted may be a different number to what we actually get.
But if I recall last century when it was called AIR 87, Army were look for UP TO 24 Aircraft. On this metric 29 looks a lot lot more than the current fleet of 22 and feel fair speculation that Army wants to grow the numbers. Sure in sales you pitch high and assume you will take some loss to get to the "reasonable figure".
Sure we will go for the expensive option and trade off numbers to get it. But at the end of the day, I doubt it will be 22 in number and I suspect the winner will be the big ugly one called the AH-64 Apache.
Comment of being light on was more in the context of numbers not the platform. Two Sqns of 8 from a Poole of 22 is I'd suggest, an ambitious teeth to tail ratio for any Attack helicopter. Even one without the grief of the Tiger program. Also I think we need a Army of three's.
If they do get lucky with a total of 29 that should give three by 6 A/C Squadrons, with the rest for training / maintenance and attrition.
Good numbers and balance for an Army of our size
Like our MBT's, we sometimes aspire to do too much with the numbers available.

Regards S
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Agree that the request for information and the 29 platforms quoted may be a different number to what we actually get.
But if I recall last century when it was called AIR 87, Army were look for UP TO 24 Aircraft. On this metric 29 looks a lot lot more than the current fleet of 22 and feel fair speculation that Army wants to grow the numbers. Sure in sales you pitch high and assume you will take some loss to get to the "reasonable figure".
Sure we will go for the expensive option and trade off numbers to get it. But at the end of the day, I doubt it will be 22 in number and I suspect the winner will be the big ugly one called the AH-64 Apache.
Comment of being light on was more in the context of numbers not the platform. Two Sqns of 8 from a Poole of 22 is I'd suggest, an ambitious teeth to tail ratio for any Attack helicopter. Even one without the grief of the Tiger program. Also I think we need a Army of three's.
If they do get lucky with a total of 29 that should give three by 6 A/C Squadrons, with the rest for training / maintenance and attrition.
Good numbers and balance for an Army of our size
Like our MBT's, we sometimes aspire to do too much with the numbers available.

Regards S
According to Janes the fleet make up under the 29 will be for 2 x 12 aircraft squadrons and a 5 aircraft training unit. From the articles I have read appears the squadrons are or can be? broken down into 3 troops of 4 aircraft per, So I imagine we should be able to have 2 troops (8 helicopters) available to be deployed at all times assuming it is all correct.
 

FoxtrotRomeo999

Active Member
According to Janes the fleet make up under the 29 will be for 2 x 12 aircraft squadrons and a 5 aircraft training unit. From the articles I have read appears the squadrons are or can be? broken down into 3 troops of 4 aircraft per, So I imagine we should be able to have 2 troops (8 helicopters) available to be deployed at all times assuming it is all correct.
Could we retain the existing Tigers as well? Yes, manning, maintenance and obsolescence are issues but I suspect they will still be useful and probably very hard to re-sell.
 
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