Australian Army Discussions and Updates

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Getting rid of the taipan's and tigers at the same time, and replacing them with new blackhawks and Apaches makes more sense.
The taipan's are a cat, can't flare, which means they need to slow right down before landing, much bigger without any real advantages over the blackhawks, more maintenance time required, and parts harder to source.
They were a huge mistake.
The blackhawks, when 1st introduced carried 14 grunts and all their kit until some OH&S bloke decided that everyone needed seat belts. Again, I say we need at least two battalions of light infantry. West Papua will become an issue in our life time.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Okay, I have to ask what you consider to be a decent stock of 155 mm ammunition? Since a CH-47F Chinook has a useful slung load of ~7,250 kg in a hot/high environment, and up to ~11,700 kg in more favourable flight conditions, at a minimum that should still leave about 3,000 kg for munitions, crew, supplies, etc. Under more favourable flying conditions, there should be ~7,500 kg available to bring in munitions, supplies, etc.

As a side note, it looks as though the onboard 155 mm ammunition load of an M109A6 self-propelled howitzer is 39 rounds, each weighing ~43.2 kg. So it would appear that a Chinook transporting an M777 should be able to deliver it with a munitions load comparable to what a SPG would carry.

Now, I do think there is (or at least could be) a place for SPG's in the RAA OrBat, as well as MRLS, but at the same time, given where and how Australia has fought conflicts since Korea, a place still remains for towed artillery, especially if it can be lifted by helicopter.
40 rounds per gun gives 4 tonne of munitions (noting only a HE shell weighs 43.2 kg; other natures weigh more + charges + fuses) per gun. a battery of 4 guns now has 16 tonnes of munitions. It has to be four guns, with the ROF of a M777 two guns just does not give sufficient weight of fire. Call it 4 500 kg per gun (noting on paper a M777 is 4 200 kg + other miscellaneous 'stuff') and we have 18 tonnes of gun. 10 pers per gun plus a C2 element gives at minimum 50 people - that's a book weight of 4 tonnes (assuming each is 80 kg - and most gunners are more). Each in marching order gives another 1.5 tonnes. So all up 40 tonnes. Minimum. That's four CH-47 (if everything is nice and cool at sea level), or five for PNG. But we only deploy a troop of 2 - 3. So now we are deploying more CH-47? And this only is for 20 minutes of fire - so there better be another 1-2 CH-47 coming with another 16 tonnes of ammunition.

Assuming that this makes tactical sense (which I'm not convinced it does), logistically this is stupid. Tying up your fleet of CH-47 in theatre for all of 20 minutes of fire? Use a Tiger troop. Or build a road. Either way, it either is silly, or a FOB gun. But FOBs are not really a good option in the future.

The last line there indicates the issues with history. Historically towed guns have worked - but our threats have had poor counterbattery or the technology didn't exist. This no longer is the case. Applying modern forces to every one of our battles from 1939 onwards shows that SPGs would have done better with greater flexibility. And while our likely threats build up their GBAD capabilities and the proliferation of MLRS and associated radar systems increases - towed guns are obselete.

As for a 120 mm self-propelled mortar system, I would be more inclined to have those organized as fire support (direct and indirect) sections attached to Land 400 Phase 2 & 3 equipped units provided that the mortar system is something like AMOS and fitted to hulls based on Land 400 vehicles.
Sold. I don't care what it looks like, but a 120mm mortar on a platform that can keep up with a 2030 Battle Group is neeed.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Thats all good but at this time we are not getting SPH and there is currently no plan to get SPH. The problem with SPH is they are Tracked Vehicles unless you go to the Gun on a Truck which still req the Crew to get out of the Truck and set up the Gun before firing. While Tracked SPH are great on the Battlefield itself it still req Low loader Trucks to get them there and like all Tracked Vehicles they req a lot more maintenance than Trucks do. They can't shoot 300ks so useless to you if you don't have enough Low Loaders to carry them.
Towed Arty are not obsolete because they are much easier to deploy over any real distance, how do you avoid Counter Battery Fire, take theirs out first by providing better ISR & Comms, get the first shot in. That is what the ADF is working towards, history has consistanly shown the side that shoots first wins most battles.
We will have to wait for the next DWP to see if we get some form of SP Arty, A 120mm mortar on some of the Land 400 IFVs maybe to supplement the M777 but not replace them
The only ADF Aircraft you can put a SPG on is the C-17, you can put M-777s on C-130s and C-27s.
The great strength of Towed Arty v SP Arty is deployablity. The great weaknes of all Tracked Vehicles is that deploying them away from home is a bitch.
I don't disagree that Armoured Units should have SP Arty, just your suggestion that Towed Arty is Obsolete.
Addressing in order:

I don't really care what Army has now as anything more than a means of identifying what, in accordance with Government direction and the assessed future operating environment, Army needs. SPHs don't feature in DWP 16 sure, but that doesn't mean that there isn't people building the body of evidence needed.

SPH does not mean tracked. Right now there is a Boxer 155 mm module. The South Africans have the G6. If that meets requirements, good - buy them. If a K9 or M109A7 or AS90 does better,, than fine, buy that. I don't care what it looks like.

For me, SPH is not a gun on a truck. One of the advantages of the SPH is the protection for the crew. Buying a gun on a truck is a stupid way of filling the gap.

Maintenance is not a function of wheels v tracks, but rather weight. Up until now, tracked vehicles have traditionally been heavier than wheeled. I doubt you are going to see discernable differences between IFV and CRV. Furthermore, I am already lifting tanks, under armour breeching and IFVs. I have something like 800 heavy tractors in service now; I'll buy another six trailers at $50k to move the SPH. In a program that will be 8 - 9 figures, who cares about another $300 - 500k?

Deployment is a function of what mode you use. A Boxer or G6 can self-deploy easier than a towed gun. I've already bought 6 trailers (that are easier to move around than a gun), so that's not an issue for tracked. By air is a problem for our whole force, do we honestly think we will C-17 in a Bde? Even a mech BG? And sea? Just drive the SPH on or off - again, easy.

Great, rely on our ISR. In a congested and contested environment with almost every neighbour having weapons that over match the range of a M777, how much are you going to place faith in that. Furthermore, assuming the enemy have similar capabilities to us, just how easy is it to hide our guns? Noting too, that if you want them to be used you have to fire - and you better hope that every MLRS within 30 km has been cleared out. Do you think that's feasible without using the guns?

We need to be clear that a 120mm SPM does not replace a 155 mm gun. They are complementary, not a replacement. If you forced me to pick a 120 mm SPM or a 155 mm SPH I'd go the latter every time. Buying 120 mm and saying that is our SPH capability would be stupid. The mech BG needs a 120 mm mortar system more than an 81 mm; but less than a 155 mm.

I also think it's time to start having a realistic assessment of what the RAAF can deliver for Army. Sure, an SPH cannot fit on a C-130 or C-27, but neither can an M1 hull, a CRV or a IFV. So - who cares? Furthermore, a M777 requires 2x C-130; because the gun tractor has to come too. So now a Battery requires 8x C-130 lifts. Are we going to have those airframes spare? I'm not sure about a C-27 - I think it's irrelevant from an Army logistic point of view anyhow. Can a M777 really fit in one? A MacK?

Towed artillery is at best no harder to deploy than SPH. So getting to the battlefield is a reasonably simple solution for both. But once the rounds start flying, the towed guns die within minutes. SPH can survive. So tell me - what do you want to fight in? This is a F-86 v F-35 question. I'll take the SPH thanks.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Tanks are no where near as complex as helos, at neither an individual platform nor capability management standpoint. The fact that tanks take up about 2% of the sustainment budget, while helicopters take up about a third, for a similar number of platforms, make that pretty clear. The challenges facing tank sustainability are very different to those facing MRH/ARH sustainability.

Putting 1 Avn, 5 Avn and 16 Bde HQ on the same piece of real estate makes a lot of sense.
Colocating Avn assets? Sure - sold. That was my point - why scatter complex platforms around Australia when you could co-locate them?

As for tank not being as complex as helicopters, I'll be happy to disagree. I suggest that an avionics tech will find more use on a Boxer than a Kiowa. Or even a Black Hawk. I think many of the issues to do with M1 are a reflection that you can manage them like a truck as opposed to something a little more complex. At AHQ, CASG/DMO and unit levels. And no, I am not saying copy pasting AASPO to AFVSPO is enough or even appropriate, but a there are significant gaps in our FIC that, if approached as a helicopter, would have been at least reviewed.

Budgets don't reflect this, frankly the costs of aviation compliance drive up most of the costs. Where else can a 25mm x M8 bolt cost over $1000? And as much as I give them grief for using jet engines, a Sqn of helicopters simply burns more (and more expensive) fuel and munitions.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
G
Colocating Avn assets? Sure - sold. That was my point - why scatter complex platforms around Australia when you could co-locate them?

As for tank not being as complex as helicopters, I'll be happy to disagree. I suggest that an avionics tech will find more use on a Boxer than a Kiowa. Or even a Black Hawk. I think many of the issues to do with M1 are a reflection that you can manage them like a truck as opposed to something a little more complex. At AHQ, CASG/DMO and unit levels. And no, I am not saying copy pasting AASPO to AFVSPO is enough or even appropriate, but a there are significant gaps in our FIC that, if approached as a helicopter, would have been at least reviewed.

Budgets don't reflect this, frankly the costs of aviation compliance drive up most of the costs. Where else can a 25mm x M8 bolt cost over $1000? And as much as I give them grief for using jet engines, a Sqn of helicopters simply burns more (and more expensive) fuel and munitions.

Ouch ------how much does the M10 bolt cost???????? :eek:
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Interest
40 rounds per gun gives 4 tonne of munitions (noting only a HE shell weighs 43.2 kg; other natures weigh more + charges + fuses) per gun. a battery of 4 guns now has 16 tonnes of munitions. It has to be four guns, with the ROF of a M777 two guns just does not give sufficient weight of fire. Call it 4 500 kg per gun (noting on paper a M777 is 4 200 kg + other miscellaneous 'stuff') and we have 18 tonnes of gun. 10 pers per gun plus a C2 element gives at minimum 50 people - that's a book weight of 4 tonnes (assuming each is 80 kg - and most gunners are more). Each in marching order gives another 1.5 tonnes. So all up 40 tonnes. Minimum. That's four CH-47 (if everything is nice and cool at sea level), or five for PNG. But we only deploy a troop of 2 - 3. So now we are deploying more CH-47? And this only is for 20 minutes of fire - so there better be another 1-2 CH-47 coming with another 16 tonnes of ammunition.

Assuming that this makes tactical sense (which I'm not convinced it does), logistically this is stupid. Tying up your fleet of CH-47 in theatre for all of 20 minutes of fire? Use a Tiger troop. Or build a road. Either way, it either is silly, or a FOB gun. But FOBs are not really a good option in the future.

The last line there indicates the issues with history. Historically towed guns have worked - but our threats have had poor counterbattery or the technology didn't exist. This no longer is the case. Applying modern forces to every one of our battles from 1939 onwards shows that SPGs would have done better with greater flexibility. And while our likely threats build up their GBAD capabilities and the proliferation of MLRS and associated radar systems increases - towed guns are obselete.



Sold. I don't care what it looks like, but a 120mm mortar on a platform that can keep up with a 2030 Battle Group is neeed.



Interesting layout of the logistic requirements for the M777.
Starting to look a bit WW11 in the 21st century.

This might need to be fixed ASAP.

Regards S
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Budgets don't reflect this, frankly the costs of aviation compliance drive up most of the costs.
But it’s the aviation compliance part that makes aviation so much more complex, and why the drivers for centralising helos are so different to that for tanks.

It’s also why I laugh when people say Land 400 wont be affordable or sustainable. AFVs of all types currently make up about 6% of the sustainment budget. This is forcast to go up to about 8.5% when Land 400, Land 907-2 and Land 8160 come into service. About one quarter of that of aviation...
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Give the choppers back to RAAF, keep Army budget the same, increase RAAF budget, lol
That worked well when I was in the Army. Need an Iroquois allocated for the duration of an exercise on the Wednesday; get told that RAAF had a priority tasking and it wouldn't be available. Watch the RAAF football team members in their playing clobber hop aboard and head for Melbourne to play against our depleted team, then return sweaty and well lubricated about 5pm. One of plenty of dubious taskings in my time. At least it was only Aussie Rules.

oldsig
 

Thewookie

New Member
Rheinmetal with a contract for 1000 logisitics vehicles for the ADF, manufactured in Austria, with delivery starting 2019
Rheinmetall to supply more than 1,000 logistics trucks to ADF | Jane's 360

In a separate statement Australian Minister for Defence Industry Christopher Pyne said the country is purchasing 1,044 additional new-generation medium and heavy trucks, 872 modules, and 812 trailers for AUD1.4 billion (USD1.04 billion) to facilitate logistics support and enhance the ADF’s land capabilities
 
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t68

Well-Known Member
Rheinmetall to supply more than 1000 logistic trucks to ADF - Manufacturers' Monthly

I wonder what configuration they are planning for these as when the Land 400 family of vehicles start entering service the old Mack 6x6 will not be capable of transporting these nor using the new 8x8(17t payload), it means that a high number of the new vehicles will have to be used as prime movers with low loaders in a similar set up the MAN TGA Tank Transporter.

I also noticed that a number of these tank transporters went to auction (don't know exact numbers) so its interesting to find out what they are using now. it also means that a restructure of RACT now the role of moving an ACR is no longer viable for 2nd line transport, have trying to find out how they plan to move the new vehicles and any restructure of RACT
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Rheinmetall to supply more than 1000 logistic trucks to ADF - Manufacturers' Monthly

I wonder what configuration they are planning for these as when the Land 400 family of vehicles start entering service the old Mack 6x6 will not be capable of transporting these nor using the new 8x8(17t payload), it means that a high number of the new vehicles will have to be used as prime movers with low loaders in a similar set up the MAN TGA Tank Transporter.

I also noticed that a number of these tank transporters went to auction (don't know exact numbers) so its interesting to find out what they are using now. it also means that a restructure of RACT now the role of moving an ACR is no longer viable for 2nd line transport, have trying to find out how they plan to move the new vehicles and any restructure of RACT
The new IFVs whatever is ordered will be much closer in weight to a Leopard 1 than a M-113 so yes you are definetly looking at a Low Loader to move them.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The new IFVs whatever is ordered will be much closer in weight to a Leopard 1 than a M-113 so yes you are definetly looking at a Low Loader to move them.
Could do a US Military and use rail where possible to move them. The US Army & USMC use whole trains so have their own rail wagon sets.


 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Rheinmetall to supply more than 1000 logistic trucks to ADF - Manufacturers' Monthly

I wonder what configuration they are planning for these as when the Land 400 family of vehicles start entering service the old Mack 6x6 will not be capable of transporting these nor using the new 8x8(17t payload), it means that a high number of the new vehicles will have to be used as prime movers with low loaders in a similar set up the MAN TGA Tank Transporter.

I also noticed that a number of these tank transporters went to auction (don't know exact numbers) so its interesting to find out what they are using now. it also means that a restructure of RACT now the role of moving an ACR is no longer viable for 2nd line transport, have trying to find out how they plan to move the new vehicles and any restructure of RACT
Land 121 Phase 3B purchased a number of trailers capable of lifting an 75-80 t plus an additional sub-fleet of trailers capable of lifting 40-45 t. All equipment being purchased can be moved on the 121 fleet.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
An opinion piece in ASPI by Marcus Hellyer talks about armoured vehicles and what are needed and relevant for the future.
This is pertinent with Australia's LAND 400 Phase 2 and 3 taking shape.
We are going to invest a large amount of money on these projects so it is a timely question, are we going down the right tract with these projects as with the changing face of warfare, will these systems be relevant in the future?
If so are we getting value for money.

I don't have the answers and suspect there will always be a need for protection.
Any thoughts

The Strategist | ASPI's analysis and commentary site
Land 400, Is a Knight in Shining Armour really what we need.

Regards S
 

t68

Well-Known Member
An opinion piece in ASPI by Marcus Hellyer talks about armoured vehicles and what are needed and relevant for the future.
This is pertinent with Australia's LAND 400 Phase 2 and 3 taking shape.
We are going to invest a large amount of money on these projects so it is a timely question, are we going down the right tract with these projects as with the changing face of warfare, will these systems be relevant in the future?
If so are we getting value for money.

I don't have the answers and suspect there will always be a need for protection.
Any thoughts

The Strategist | ASPI's analysis and commentary site
Land 400, Is a Knight in Shining Armour really what we need.

Regards S

Well what's the alternative?

sure we can get less protected vehicles but that increases the risk to a small Army like the ADF , mobility is a big question mark yet to be answered for our region but from all accounts the Centurion did well in Vietnam. More standoff overwatch capability will most likely be needed in a high intensity conflict. but in a low intensity/peacekeeping mission id rather our men and women be protected by a vehicle that he considered overkill than a vehicle that cant take a hit from a 12.7mm or IED
 
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