Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Todjaeger]

Rafael have been chosen to supply Spike LR-2 onto Australia's Boxer fleet ..
With Spike LR2II being chosen by Israel i wonder if it was on offer to Australia ?

Australia selects Spike LR2 | Jane's 360

With Javelin already being in the ADF could we replaced it with a version of Spike SR/MR/LR to reduce logistics for Army ?

On one hand, rationalizing the missiles could reduce logistics if the vehicles and man-packed missile teams settled on the same missile. On the other hand is the question of cost, since it appears that Australia already has 90+ Javelin launchers and looking at the purchase data it seems most Javelin buyers order 3+ missiles per launcher...

If Australia has an significant extant warstock of Javelin missiles, then it might be better to retain the Javelin as crew served weapons teams and just adopt Spike LR as a vehicle-mounted weapon. If the Javelin warstock ever gets depleted, or if the stocked missiles start reaching their expiration date, then adopting a man-portable Spike launcher would make sense.

 

[Raven22]

There is project LAND 4108 which is the support weapon replacement project. This project will upgrade or replace all support weapons like the 66, 84, Javelin etc. it is very likely that Javelin will be replaced by the Spike family under this project.

 

[Boagrius]

The Naval Seas Systems Command is contracting Raytheon Missile Systems in support of the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) system. The firm-fixed-price contract

is valued at $77 million and provides for the engineering, test equipment, material and management necessary to transition the ESSM Block 2 engineering... ESSM Block 2’s active guidance will be especially helpful to land-based air defense systems, which are constantly under threat from enemy missiles, rockets, etc.

Raytheon Wins $77M US Navy Contract for Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile Block II Requirements

This stood out to me with respect to the Army's new Hawkei based NASAMS system. Integrating the ESSM Blk II into said GBAD capability strikes me as pretty logical. AIM9X & AMRAAM are both extremely capable missiles of course, but neither were optimised for launch from a standing start at ground level. ESSM Blk II solves that "problem" while still giving you a weapon well suited to use within the broader joint/networked system. One hopes that the larger missile is being closely looked at as part of the Australian NASAMS arsenal!

 

[Todjaeger]

There is project LAND 4108 which is the support weapon replacement project. This project will upgrade or replace all support weapons like the 66, 84, Javelin etc. it is very likely that Javelin will be replaced by the Spike family under this project.

Is there something specific about the Javelin that requires upgrading or replacement? Or is it that the Javelin missile warstocks are either depleted or will be expiring soonish?

I have not come across much information about LAND 4108 (yet, I will keep looking) apart from information on the Integrated Soldier Systems, so I curious what issue if any there is with the Javelin, or if it is more that the current Javelins are not integrated in the desired or planned fashion.

 

[the road runner]

Is there something specific about the Javelin that requires upgrading or replacement? Or is it that the Javelin missile warstocks are either depleted or will be expiring soonish?.

The cost of the javelin missile is rumoured to be around the 100k plus mark while the launcher is 150k plus .. while Spike is rumoured to be far cheaper..

 

[Todjaeger]

The cost of the javelin missile is rumoured to be around the 100k plus mark while the launcher is 150k plus .. while Spike is rumoured to be far cheaper..

Hence the interest in what the status is of the current inventory. IIRC Australia has 90+ launchers already, plus whatever the current missile inventory is. If the weapons are still serviceable, and Australia has already paid to acquire them, train troops to use them, etc. then IMO it would not make sense to replace the kit with a different missile system, even if the replacement system is less expensive. Once the majority of the existing missiles and/or launchers become unserviceable, or the missile stockpile becomes depleted, then bringing in a less expensive system would make more sense.

OTOH if the existing launchers and missiles can be sold to another user for the same amount it would cost to start fielding replacement Spike launchers, that too would be a different case.

 

[the road runner]

I would have thought ..that when Spike and Boxer are first delivered to Army around 2020 the javelin will be pushing 15 years old ...
When we receive our final Boxer/spike, the javelin would be close to 20 years old and either in need of a major upgrade ,or more likely due for a replacement..

I would assume Spike would be in the position of being the front runner for replacement of javelin

 

[Boagrius]

IIRC we are also set to manufacture the Spike LR2 missile domestically. From what I can tell the Spike LR2 seems to offer some attractive advantages over the Jav (man in loop guidance, networking, range etc).

Obviously no decision has actually been made yet, but those 90 odd Jav launchers and associated warshots may be seen as expendable if the alternative is a domestically supportable, more modern/versatile, cheaper suite of ATGMs (perhaps also including other Spike variants via LAND4108)?

Then there is the obvious commonality that could span from the infantry through to our armoured vehicle (and potentially helicopter/UAS) fleet...

 

[MickB]

Talking about amphib training and 2 RAR on RAN thread raised a question for me, if anyone can help.
To simplify the articles I read, 2 RARs main role both pre and post landing will be recon.
Yet it also states 108 Battery RAA is attached to 2 RAR.
Can anyone expand on 108 Batterys role?

 

[toryu]

Talking about amphib training and 2 RAR on RAN thread raised a question for me, if anyone can help.
To simplify the articles I read, 2 RARs main role both pre and post landing will be recon.
Yet it also states 108 Battery RAA is attached to 2 RAR.
Can anyone expand on 108 Batterys role?

The short answer seems to be that pre-landing, they form joint fires teams within that PLF to "cue joint fires and effects". Post-landing they may shift to a more traditional role once they link up with the primary landing forces. Or whatever other role is needed for the force to accomplish its objective. Sounds pretty dynamic.

There's a new online issue of DTR out (#43/June) which has a 6 page feature that covers what they're trying to build with the PLF and the specialised equipment they're looking to acquire.

Defence Technology Review : DTR JUN 2018, Page 1

 

[t68]

Just wondering are there plans to replace the M113-AS4 ALV within land 400, or can these solder on in the role.

I wonder if that would be a better vehicle to base the proposed Medusa GBAD system

 

[old faithful]

Since 2RAR is not part of any brigade group, it would be worth considering integration with 1 CDO Regt, their main role being recon, that way, they could benefit from cross training with the Commandos, and like wise 1 CDO.

 

[aussienscale]

For those interested in the contenders for Land 400 Phase 3, Rheinmetall will be launching a Lynx KF41 IFV on Tuesday 12th June at the annual Eurosatory in Paris, and on Wednesday 13th a Lynx KF41 Command Post variant, as far as i know all other versions to date have been the smaller KF31, the KF41 is believed to be what has been offered for Phase 3.

Wonder who they have flown over for the launch from Australia ?

Cheers

 

[Raven22]

Since 2RAR is not part of any brigade group, it would be worth considering integration with 1 CDO Regt, their main role being recon, that way, they could benefit from cross training with the Commandos, and like wise 1 CDO.

The roles and tasks of 2 RAR and 1 Cdo are nothing alike. 2 RAR are a specialist battalion that forms the core of the ARE and ARG, while the commandoes are commandoes. This would make no sense.

 

[Raven22]

Talking about amphib training and 2 RAR on RAN thread raised a question for me, if anyone can help.
To simplify the articles I read, 2 RARs main role both pre and post landing will be recon.
Yet it also states 108 Battery RAA is attached to 2 RAR.
Can anyone expand on 108 Batterys role?

2 RARs main role is not recon. They form the core of the ARE/ARG. While they don’t gave a ground combat element permanantly attached, they have the dedicated pre-landing force, command element and logistic element needed for the amphibious force.

108’s role is to provide the JFECC to the amphibious force.

 

[PeterM]

DTR Magazine has done a special supplement on the Lynx KF41 IFV.
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/ebe68...446/Lynx_KF41_Special_Supplement_final.01.pdf

For me it seems like this would be a strong contender for land 400 ph3.


I found the Lance 2.0 turret interesting. Should the Lynx get the nod for phase3, I wonder if the Lance 2.0 turret could be used for the Boxer CRV.

 

[Stampede]

A seriously ugly vehicle, the KF41 is one hell of a package.
If it does as advertised it will raise a lot of questions as to what we want and need for phase three of Land 400.
The ability to carry and support 8 dismounts will again beg the question as to the way forward for Mechanised Infantry.
I don't have the answers but at least the KF41 gives an option.

Makes the old M113 look a bit dated.

Regards S

 

[Joe Black]

DTR Magazine has done a special supplement on the Lynx KF41 IFV.
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/ebe68...446/Lynx_KF41_Special_Supplement_final.01.pdf

For me it seems like this would be a strong contender for land 400 ph3.

More news on KF41 and a news clip on Eurosatory:
Will this new Rheinmetall combat vehicle spark US Army interest?

 

[Todjaeger]

A seriously ugly vehicle, the KF41 is one hell of a package.
If it does as advertised it will raise a lot of questions as to what we want and need for phase three of Land 400.
The ability to carry and support 8 dismounts will again beg the question as to the way forward for Mechanised Infantry.
I don't have the answers but at least the KF41 gives an option.

Makes the old M113 look a bit dated.

Regards S

Respectfully, the M113 is a bit dated. The M113's in Australian service started out as M113A1's which dates as far back as 1964... Additionally, some Australian M113's saw combat service in Vietnam, though I am uncertain whether or not any veterans which had seen service in Vietnam remain in Australian service. Approximately half the Australian inventory of M113A1's remain in service, having been upgraded to either the M113AS3 or M113AS4 configuration.

Either way, the M113 has been in Australian service for ~50 years.

 

[Volkodav]

Respectfully, the M113 is a bit dated. The M113's in Australian service started out as M113A1's which dates as far back as 1964... Additionally, some Australian M113's saw combat service in Vietnam, though I am uncertain whether or not any veterans which had seen service in Vietnam remain in Australian service. Approximately half the Australian inventory of M113A1's remain in service, having been upgraded to either the M113AS3 or M113AS4 configuration.

Either way, the M113 has been in Australian service for ~50 years.

One of the vehicles I used to drive was and ex US Army vehicle that hit a mine in Vietnam and had been written off. RAEME recovered and repaired it and it was still in service in the late 90s.

Some where even converted from the original petrol/gasoline fueled M-113 into diesel M-113A1, which I believe were all ex US vehicles appropriated during vietnam. You could tell these by the separate bolt on plate around the fuel filler on the hull top.