Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Daussault most be wondering WTF they are still bothering with India. Thanks to India Canada can claim being a nano-hair better at procurement.

No Rafale Deal Unless Price Is Right: Parrikar
They were never serious about that MMRCA tender. Any sensible analyst could have easily picked up that fact from the start back in 2004-2005 when they began making a huge fuss. They just put on a show for a global showoff. But it also cost them the time to purchase the originally intended Mirage 2000-5, both new from France & slightly used from Qatar.

Since the Mirage production ceased Rafale was the obvious way forward but they have made a mess of it as well. France/Dessault are not running a charity (although they can be very unreasonable when it comes to pricing) & India certainly is rich enough to purchase what is now mere 30+ jets.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
They didn't buy the Qatari Mirages. Qatar still has them. Nor, IIRC, did India buy any new Mirage 2000-5 from France. It bought upgrades to Mirage 2000-5 standard for its Mirage 2000H fleet. That wasn't a problem with time, but with failure to engage in meaningful negotiations.

Dassault offered India the M2K production line when it shut down in France, & from what I heard didn't even get a reply. India publicly rejected the Qatari offer in terms which the Qataris were offended by.

Whether the IAF, the Indian MoD & the cabinet were never serious about the MMRC or whether it was just indecision & incompetence is hard to prove, but I find the latter more credible. It fits the general model of cocked-up Indian military procurement.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
Incompitence or other reasons, I would be very surprised if India does not sign a state to state deal with France and completly bypass IAF/HAL effort to strike a deal with Dassalt.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Incompitence or other reasons, I would be very surprised if India does not sign a state to state deal with France and completly bypass IAF/HAL effort to strike a deal with Dassalt.
they can't bypass Indian industry - it's part of the legal process to compliance and purchase

they can try and argue precedence on P8's and C17's - but unfortunately the arguments which allowed these purchases to get traction are hard to replicate again

eg Sea Dragon on the Mays was an unmitigated disaster and the C17's were a turnkey selection - The IAF was well onboard with wanting C-17's and they were delivered within record timeframe, requested, signed off, accepted and deliveries underway within 2 1/2 years of first request

having dealt with the Indian Govt and Indian military on some procurement and selection issues as a contractor, I can tell you from personal experience that the process is a nightmare

especially at tech transfer negotiations

as am extreme comparison of the "art of the possible" - RAAF selected and received aircraft within 10 months of decision. Things don't always occur at that cycle speed, but its hows how quickly things can happen.

In IAF terms, they got theirs within 3-4 years and that was dramatically quicker than their normal acquisition cycle.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Bellow is the latest. I think India might just pull out. US offer for F-16 tech transfer may be enticing but could become highly contentious move for Modi government on domestic political level.

Paris acknowledges India may not purchase Rafale


* Build F-16 in India and supply it to Pakistan, taunts a French official

Paris acknowledges India may not purchase Rafale | Business Standard News

Paris is beginning to acknowledge the possibility that India might not buy the Rafale fighter because of sharp differences over the price, and New Delhi’s insistence on enforceable guarantees regarding the fighter’s delivery, performance and availability.

A senior French official with a close view of the on-going negotiations between New Delhi and Paris for 36 Rafale fighters told Business Standard on condition of anonymity: “If some people in the MoD (the ministry of defence) do not want to allow the Rafale deal to go through, so be it. We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia.”

Underlining the irritation at repeated US offers to set up an assembly line in India to build the American F-16 Super Viper, the French official taunted: “If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.”

He was referring to Washington’s announcement last month of the sale to Pakistan of eight advanced Block 50/52 F-16 fighters for $699 million. Simultaneously, a senior Lockheed Martin official had publicly offered to “move our [F-16] production line from the US to India”.

Reminded that France, too, was supplying submarines to both India and Pakistan (DCNS is building six Scorpene submarines with Mazagon Dock, after earlier selling Pakistan three advanced Agosta-90B submarines with air independent propulsion), he retorted, “That is different. Pakistan is getting a different submarine from what we are providing to India.”

The official dismissed the notion that an Indian order was critical for Dassault to break-even in the Rafale project, in which tens of billion euros have been spent on developing the fighter and establishing a production line. The official claimed, “The Rafale project is commercially viable based on the numbers that the French military requires, even if there is not a single export order.”

In fact, defence budget cuts have forced the French military to slash Rafale orders from over 300 originally planned to only 180 ordered so far. That is a small order, given that the Eurofighter Typhoon has over 700 aircraft on order; while more than 4,500 F-16s have been built over the years.

On New Delhi’s demands for sovereign guarantees from the French government, or a bank guarantee from Dassault, to cover the possibility of delivery or performance shortfalls in the Rafale, the official declared the two countries would soon sign an inter-governmental agreement (IGA), which would function as a sovereign guarantee.

“The government of France is standing behind the sale. Surely, India is not asking for a bank guarantee when it has the word of the French government?” asked the official.

When it was pointed out that the IGA would only outline a supply agreement in broad terms, without detailed binding clauses and penalties, the official responded that the IGA was a strategic agreement between Paris and New Delhi, and that “a phrase here or a sentence there would make no difference.”

“In 1917, when the United States abandoned its isolationism and sent a division of troops to France to fight in World War I, it was not because there was some document with a clause that required them to fight. It was because of a common strategic aim. New Delhi and Paris must have a common strategic aim on the Rafale.”

French officials argue that if Dassault is required to provide a bank guarantee against possible shortfalls in delivery and performance, India should cover that cost, which is normally three-four per cent of the guarantee amount.

Meanwhile, the Cost Negotiation Committee on the Rafale has made little headway in bridging the gap between the French demand and Indian counter-offer, which are believed to be around euro 12 billion and euro 9 billion, respectively. Issues of liability are further complicating the likelihood of a deal soon.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, while visiting Paris last April, had requested for 36 Rafales, after a breakdown in negotiations for a much larger order for 126 Rafales. The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, after an exhaustive evaluation of six fighter aircraft.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
If Daussault and France need some extra frustration they can begin negotiations with the government of Canada for a Rafale sale. Of course they will have to get the provincial government of Qubec on board first. The only advantage for Canada over India for Daussault is language.

Mod. Can we stay in the lane and keep the issues around Indian Mil Aviation issues plse

as reinforced in another thread:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/royal-navy-discussions-updates-5679/#post306760
#11371
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The ones left alive I guess- I understand their casualty rate was getting pretty high in the last few years of ops.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Indian Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has released a damning report on the the Indian Navy MIG29K, stating that "it faces operational deficiencies due to defects in engines, airframes and fly-by-wire systems." The former CNS who evaluated the aircraft in 1999 was highly critical of "the 'lethargy' by the Russians in the manufacturing and maintenance of the aircraft" who's development was totally funded by India.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
awesome customer service eh?
As they are ordering an additional 4 P-8s, and have C-17s, they must be happy with Boeing's service support. Perhaps it is time for them to revisit the Superhornet before production ends and possibly work out some kind of joint production.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I don't think SHornets can do STOBAR...

In other news LM has offered India the entire F-16 production line.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I don't think SHornets can do STOBAR...

In other news LM has offered India the entire F-16 production line.
You are right about the SH, can't do STOBAR. Not sure if the Rafale naval version can either. French carrier is CATOBAR. Given India's desire for local production, the LM deal would seem attractive. Saab might be willing to do the same. They don't seem willing to pay what is necessary which is why they continue dealing with Russia while letting Western proposals fade away.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I don't think SHornets can do STOBAR...

In other news LM has offered India the entire F-16 production line.
India was offered the entire Mirage 2000 production line 10 years ago, & is reported to have not even bothered to reply.
 
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