New Zealand Army

[shanes_world_05]

shane

I know nothing about firearms, so I'm more interested in the process of this purchase. Compare it to the Steyr replacement; no call for tenders, no shortlist, no trials phase.

Given the UK introduced what appears to be the same pistol a couple of years ago, I assume NZ looked at their testing process and thought 'Yep, that'll do'. Seems sensible to me, given the total spend is under $2 million.

Also, this decision is about 25 years after the introduction of the SIG. Are they worn out from use, as it would be most unlike the NZ government to replace something that wasn't completely knackered.

I've attached a few links below. The Bloomberg one is the most interesting, as it names some of the competitors in the UK trials.

The final link states that Australia is still using the aging Browning, and calls for an upgrade.

Glock 17 - British Army Website

Browning gets the bullet! Army replaces trusty pistol with Glock handgun after 50 years | Daily Mail Online

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HXjI_fJ71k

U.K. Army Get NYPD Pistol as Glock Bests Browning - Bloomberg Business

Why the ADF handgun is an ethics issue

To be honest neither do I.

I really like the Steyr and the Sig but I'm a little excited about these new systems. When I first joined the Browning was still around even though the Sig had been introduced maybe ten years before. And the Sig's possibly haven't been abused like the Steyrs, I would guess. So we might see them about in an emergency.
Wish we got the 16 inch Designated Marksmen Rifle aswell as the 20 inch though. That would be a handy handy weapon.

I think the Aussies were going to get the Sig at one point but it got canned, if anyone can correct me?

But Browning, Sig or Glock I would be happy for either of them aslong as I had good mags and plenty of time on the range to fix the biggest weak point which is the shooter (me).

I think the biggest thing we could do is automate the ranges so that we had more efficient use of time at the various facilities. Often we have issues getting people up to speed for the serials of the qualification shoots that could be de-risked (in terms of peoples scores and coaching) if we automated it and possibly incorporate some technique analysis from grouping results. Having said that hearing what incoming small arms and ricochets sounds like has alot of value aswell.

 

[ngatimozart]

To be honest neither do I.

I really like the Steyr and the Sig but I'm a little excited about these new systems. When I first joined the Browning was still around even though the Sig had been introduced maybe ten years before. And the Sig's possibly haven't been abused like the Steyrs, I would guess. So we might see them about in an emergency.
Wish we got the 16 inch Designated Marksmen Rifle aswell as the 20 inch though. That would be a handy handy weapon.

I think the Aussies were going to get the Sig at one point but it got canned, if anyone can correct me?

But Browning, Sig or Glock I would be happy for either of them aslong as I had good mags and plenty of time on the range to fix the biggest weak point which is the shooter (me).

I think the biggest thing we could do is automate the ranges so that we had more efficient use of time at the various facilities. Often we have issues getting people up to speed for the serials of the qualification shoots that could be de-risked (in terms of peoples scores and coaching) if we automated it and possibly incorporate some technique analysis from grouping results. Having said that hearing what incoming small arms and ricochets sounds like has alot of value aswell.

The Aussies still use the FN Browning Hi Power. I agree with your comment about being in the butts and hearing the rounds pass over and the richochets. IMHO it helps you get used to the sounds. I never did like the Steyr - it was the calibre that I didn't like the most. I was, and still am, a firm believer in the 7.62 x 51 round. We were taught that once you shot an enemy with that they stayed shot and it was our job to ensure that.

 

[Cadredave]

shane

I know nothing about firearms, so I'm more interested in the process of this purchase. Compare it to the Steyr replacement; no call for tenders, no shortlist, no trials phase.

Given the UK introduced what appears to be the same pistol a couple of years ago, I assume NZ looked at their testing process and thought 'Yep, that'll do'. Seems sensible to me, given the total spend is under $2 million.

We did our own testing for the pistol we always do what suits UK (CONOPS) does not suit us, testing of small arms is the domain of Combat School (Small Arms wing) with a rep from Navy/Air and the specials.

Due to the fact that it is $2Mil it falls under a different spending regime ie off the top off my head CDF has the authority to sign this off, Glock 17 makes sense with the Whole of Govt mantra ie same weapon as NZ Police.

Also, this decision is about 25 years after the introduction of the SIG. Are they worn out from use, as it would be most unlike the NZ government to replace something that wasn't completely knackered.

Army pistols are shagged if I had a pistol licence I would not even buy one for spare parts they been thru Bougainville, East Timor 1, 2, 3, Solomon Islands, Sinai, Iraq & Afghanistan, plus DLOC & OLOC training and normal AWQ qualifications. Now Navy P226 i would definitely purchase one.

NZDF small arms are a truly purple acquisitions Pistol & rifle the next replacements will be solely for the Army and they are the support weapons.

 

[40 deg south]

We did our own testing for the pistol we always do what suits UK (CONOPS) does not suit us, testing of small arms is the domain of Combat School (Small Arms wing) with a rep from Navy/Air and the specials.

Due to the fact that it is $2Mil it falls under a different spending regime ie off the top off my head CDF has the authority to sign this off, Glock 17 makes sense with the Whole of Govt mantra ie same weapon as NZ Police.



Army pistols are shagged if I had a pistol licence I would not even buy one for spare parts they been thru Bougainville, East Timor 1, 2, 3, Solomon Islands, Sinai, Iraq & Afghanistan, plus DLOC & OLOC training and normal AWQ qualifications. Now Navy P226 i would definitely purchase one.

NZDF small arms are a truly purple acquisitions Pistol & rifle the next replacements will be solely for the Army and they are the support weapons.

Thanks CD. Interesting info.

I'm not surprised that NZDF tested the new weapon before acquiring it. What I'm not clear on is whether they did comparative tests of a range of possible replacements then chose a preferred option. This was certainly the process for the Steyr replacement, and the absence of publicity (RfPs etc) makes me suspect this wasn't done for the new pistol.

It seems perfectly sensible to use the results from someone else's trials to aid in decision-making, so it wouldn't surprise me if NZ didn't go to the expense of a full trials programme on such a low-value item.

From my days as a bureaucrat, I vaguely remember that departmental chief executives has a financial delegation spend up to $100k on new acquisitions without needing permission from the Minister. Ministers had a limit somewhere in the low millions before they needed to go to Cabinet Committee, who in turn had another limit before they went to the whole of Cabinet.

 

[Cadredave]

Thanks CD. Interesting info.

I'm not surprised that NZDF tested the new weapon before acquiring it. What I'm not clear on is whether they did comparative tests of a range of possible replacements then chose a preferred option. This was certainly the process for the Steyr replacement, and the absence of publicity (RfPs etc) makes me suspect this wasn't done for the new pistol.

It seems perfectly sensible to use the results from someone else's trials to aid in decision-making, so it wouldn't surprise me if NZ didn't go to the expense of a full trials programme on such a low-value item.

From my days as a bureaucrat, I vaguely remember that departmental chief executives has a financial delegation spend up to $100k on new acquisitions without needing permission from the Minister. Ministers had a limit somewhere in the low millions before they needed to go to Cabinet Committee, who in turn had another limit before they went to the whole of Cabinet.

Im just going of memory reference what the CDF can approve it might be what you are saying or it could of been increased its been awhile since we had a brief at HQ NZDF & HQJFNZ, now the pistol.

To be honest its a secondary weapon from 0 - 50m or in a pinch 75m that's why it didn't need a full on trial like the IW Steyr replacement, very few people will carry a pistol as their primary weapon.

UK went from the Hi Power Browning to G17 which is equivalent to going from a mini minor to Ford Cosworth, NZDF made that leap 20+ years ago so we already know what we want in an modern pistol replacement.

 

[Cadredave]

NZDF new IW Rifle

Well here you go direct of the NZDF Facebook page

New, state of the art MARS-L weapons system for NZDF personnel

``The Minister has announced today that our Defence Force personnel will be getting a new, high-tech individual weapon fit for our modern Defence Force to replace our ageing Steyr rifles. This is a major step in ensuring our enhanced combat capability by 2020," says the Chief of Defence Force, LTGEN Tim Keating..

"Our professional soldiers are at the core of our land-based military capability. Having the right personal weapon is a fundamental requirement of this role. Thorough testing was carried out by NZDF users to ensure our personnel are equipped with the right weapon for any operational situation. This testing involved personnel from all Services and included males and females.

"The MARS-L weapons system is state of the art, and features open architecture which means modern sights and other ancillaries can be mounted on it. It can also be adjusted to fit the user. It provides excellent performance and during testing our users found it simple, light and easy to use well.

The new weapon will be used by all three of our Services and by our Special Forces, and I’m sure our personnel will be very pleased to hear what they’ll be equipped with in the future. Training will be carried out during 2016 as the weapons are introduced into service next year, with deliveries completed in 2017." Click here to see the weapon in action

https://youtu.be/HdOE65hxvRQ

 

[kiwi in exile]

Well here you go direct of the NZDF Facebook page

New, state of the art MARS-L weapons system for NZDF personnel

``The Minister has announced today that our Defence Force personnel will be getting a new, high-tech individual weapon fit for our modern Defence Force to replace our ageing Steyr rifles. This is a major step in ensuring our enhanced combat capability by 2020," says the Chief of Defence Force, LTGEN Tim Keating..

"Our professional soldiers are at the core of our land-based military capability. Having the right personal weapon is a fundamental requirement of this role. Thorough testing was carried out by NZDF users to ensure our personnel are equipped with the right weapon for any operational situation. This testing involved personnel from all Services and included males and females.

"The MARS-L weapons system is state of the art, and features open architecture which means modern sights and other ancillaries can be mounted on it. It can also be adjusted to fit the user. It provides excellent performance and during testing our users found it simple, light and easy to use well.

The new weapon will be used by all three of our Services and by our Special Forces, and I’m sure our personnel will be very pleased to hear what they’ll be equipped with in the future. Training will be carried out during 2016 as the weapons are introduced into service next year, with deliveries completed in 2017." Click here to see the weapon in action

https://youtu.be/HdOE65hxvRQ

Short vid. hopefully there is more to come. I guess this means purchase has been cabinet approved. MARS-L? Another acronym? Stands for? no mention of LMT.
Black rifles rather than green.

Interesting that they chose to feature a 203 as well givven that they are slated to be replaced also.

Brownlee in Scoop:
"“Perhaps the strongest endorsement is that our own Special Forces will also use the LMT. " Interesting to know.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Im just going of memory reference what the CDF can approve it might be what you are saying or it could of been increased its been awhile since we had a brief at HQ NZDF & HQJFNZ, now the pistol.

It's probably borderline between CDF and the Minister. Either way wouldn't need to go to Cabinet. I suspect there was a syndication clause in the Police contract that meant the process could move a little faster.

Glock 19s have been in service for a while now, so no surprise the 17 was selected for general issue.

 

[Cadredave]

Short vid. hopefully there is more to come. I guess this means purchase has been cabinet approved. MARS-L? Another acronym? Stands for? no mention of LMT.
Black rifles rather than green.

Interesting that they chose to feature a 203 as well givven that they are slated to be replaced also.

Brownlee in Scoop:
"“Perhaps the strongest endorsement is that our own Special Forces will also use the LMT. " Interesting to know.

Modular Assault Rifle System - Light I know im over acronyms

Black rifle is from the trial, M203 is to show it can mount different configurations dont forget suppressors & sights are included as well all in all black or green no ones will be complaining, Training to begin by middle of new year which means LMT is going to be very busy scaling up production.

Here Def Min news release:

Hon Gerry Brownlee
Minister of Defence

8 December 2015

New rifles for Defence Force

Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee today announced that Cabinet has approved the purchase of new rifles to re-equip the Defence Force, 28 years after the Steyr 5.56mm rifle was introduced.

The new rifle is manufactured by Lewis Machine and Tools (LMT) in the United States.

“The LMT is a combat-proven rifle that has seen service in the most arduous conditions,” Mr Brownlee says.

“It gives our personnel a weapon they can rely on in any situation,” Mr Brownlee says.

The new rifle is the heart of a weapons system that includes (for those soldiers that require it) advanced optical day and night sights, a detachable grenade launcher and other ancillaries such as combat torches, laser sights, and sound suppressors. The overall system is called the Modular Assault Rifle System – Light (MARS-L).

“Our personnel operate by day and night in conditions ranging from the jungle, to deserts, to built-up areas. The new rifle has an open architecture that allows it to mount different sights and other equipment depending on the operational situation.

“It can be adjusted to fit the user and incorporates the latest technology in a light, simple and robust package,” Mr Brownlee says.

The LMT was selected from eight contenders after a thorough evaluation that included technical examinations and extensive live firing. Personnel from all three services were involved.

“This weapon has excellent performance and was preferred by personnel,” Mr Brownlee says.

“Perhaps the strongest endorsement is that our own Special Forces will also use the LMT. Previously, they have used different rifles to the Army. They observed the trials carefully, and liked what they saw.

“We want all our personnel to have tools they need and the MARS-L system is just such a weapon.”

 

[40 deg south]

New Zealand Defence Force Releases Sneak Peak At New Carbine - The Firearm Blog

For what it's worth, a US blog identifies some of the accessories shown in the short NZDF video clip.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

How does this rifle compare to the steyr we have now, in terms of range, firepower?

 

[Raven22]

How does this rifle compare to the steyr we have now, in terms of range, firepower?

Considering they will be firing the same 5.56mm rounds, range and firepower will be essentially the same. In fact, because the new rifles will have a shorter barrel than the old, they will have marginally less range/stopping power than the Steyr.

The advantages of the new rifle lie elsewhere.

 

[KiwiRob]

Considering they will be firing the same 5.56mm rounds, range and firepower will be essentially the same. In fact, because the new rifles will have a shorter barrel than the old, they will have marginally less range/stopping power than the Steyr.

The advantages of the new rifle lie elsewhere.

I fail to see what the advantages are, it's a more unweildy weapon, I gather it's heavier, and as you said with less range and stopping power than the existing weapon.

 

[old faithful]

As an ex grunt, the advantages I see come with safe weapon handling, a better saftey/selection catch, better, more controlled magazine changes, where the rifle can be kept on the target, at the shoulder. A bayonet can be fitted the rifle, that assists in the training of any infantryman, but really is almost funny on a bullpup, but the latter shouldnt be a biggy....and lastley, tapping into the resupply of ces, like magazines, sights, 203, s etc

 

[Cadredave]

I fail to see what the advantages are, it's a more unweildy weapon, I gather it's heavier, and as you said with less range and stopping power than the existing weapon.

MARS-L is lighter than IW Steyr, taps into a very bigger Logistics supply chain world wide, is compatible in regards to training with all other M4/M16 user countries ie US Forces, Canadian, etc last but not least we finally have the same system from Tier 1 - 3 in NZDF since the retirement of the L1A1, M16A1 combo.

 

[shanes_world_05]

MARS-L is lighter than IW Steyr, taps into a very bigger Logistics supply chain world wide, is compatible in regards to training with all other M4/M16 user countries ie US Forces, Canadian, etc last but not least we finally have the same system from Tier 1 - 3 in NZDF since the retirement of the L1A1, M16A1 combo.

Hey CD and others,
Is it a DI or Piston weapon? Also sighting system for Tier3 (reserves would be tier 3?) level would that be just irons? And is the rail the same for the 203? can we use the old ones and beef out of grenadiers per section?

And sorry but last one. Someone told me that the order included a suppressor for each rifle. I reckoned rubbish but he insisted and also works in Town somewhere as part of the NZDF.

Any news on any of those (sorry to bombard)?

Regards,

Shane

 

[Cadredave]

Hey CD and others,
Is it a DI or Piston weapon? Also sighting system for Tier3 (reserves would be tier 3?) level would that be just irons? And is the rail the same for the 203? can we use the old ones and beef out of grenadiers per section?

All will be getting the new TA31NZ Acoq its part of the weapon buy, 1 Optic for all regardless, SAS & RF Infantry will have added extra for the rifles like flip up iron sights etc.

And sorry but last one. Someone told me that the order included a suppressor for each rifle. I reckoned rubbish but he insisted and also works in Town somewhere as part of the NZDF.

Only SAS & Infantry will be getting the suppressor they are only purchasing 1000 could be more or could be less now the buy has gone from 8800 to 9000 rifles. First rifles will be in service by middle of next year & fully in service by 2017 as for the Steyr I hope they keep some for en parties etc.

CD

 

[kiwi in exile]

Hey CD and others,
Is it a DI or Piston weapon? Also sighting system for Tier3 (reserves would be tier 3?) level would that be just irons? And is the rail the same for the 203? can we use the old ones and beef out of grenadiers per section?

My guess would be DI. Apparrently its very reliable. Given that a decent DI system can be reliable I suspect much of the argument for piston comes from H&K416 marketing.

Contrary to CDs post, I think back up irons will be inbuilt to all rifles.

We are planning on replacing the grenade launcher. If this is finalised soon the +/- fit of the old 203s may not be an issue. LMT also manufactures 203s, which you'd asume would fit. My preference would be for M320s, in generous numbers. Side loading for greater fange of 40mm shells, and can be used standalone.

Would also like to see a small range of supplementary optics acquired. Eoteq and aimpoints in small numbers for FIBUA/bush. Arguably you dont need the 4x of the agog andf these systems are quicker than the ACOG/RMR combo. Of course buying/training on a mixed fleet will just complicate things and cost more. Depends on soldiers preference. Just speculating.

 

[Raven22]

Would also like to see a small range of supplementary optics acquired. Eoteq and aimpoints in small numbers for FIBUA/bush. Arguably you dont need the 4x of the agog andf these systems are quicker than the ACOG/RMR combo. Of course buying/training on a mixed fleet will just complicate things and cost more. Depends on soldiers preference. Just speculating.

Australia has solved this problem by selecting the Elcan SpectreDR as the new daysight. The SpectreDR is both a 4x and 1x sight in one - it simply has a throw lever to switch between the two. So you can have the 4x selected most of the time, but if you approach close terrain simply throw the lever to switch to 1x.

The SpectreDR will replace all day sights currently in use aside from scopes for sniper rifles - it will equip all F88s (it will be delivered with new EF88s and replace the old 1.5x sight on legacy F88SA2s), all F89s, and (in a 7.62mm version) all Mag58s. Not only this excellent from a capability POV, as it is an excellent sight, it will save massive amounts of time and money as you only have to support/maintain a single sight, and you only have to train soldiers on a single sight. The only problem is the sight is quite heavy (600g from memory) and VERY expensive.

 

[old faithful]

Raven, is there way to access stats regarding military offences?
I would be interested in seeing a yearly comarison of UD, s since the introduction of the F88 and variants, there were soooo many UD, s when it was introduced. Be interesting to see how they have dropped since the intoduction, and then compare the UD rate to conventional weapons, pre F88. I know in my service, I never UD, ed and only ever had one digger in my section UD, my best mate, who I charged,( unforgivable offence in my books) then after the F88 was introduced, there was an avalanche of UD, s , in my opinion, caused by bad weapon handling, and a bad trigger guard (designed to be fired when wearing mittens) makingnit impossible for the average man to keep his finger outside the trigger guard.