Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thank you Feanor!

Number 4 and 5 are already under construction, isnt it?
Will they be just cancelled, on hold or sold to an export costumer?
I'm not sure the information is reliable. It's a claim by a ranking VMF officer, but it doesn't sound right. Honestly I don't know.

And why is Project 11356 canceled in favour of 22800? Because the 18 New Project 22800 Corvettes will Supplement the Buyan-M Corvettes.
Yeah it makes no sense. Honestly the 22800 are not really corvettes. Neither are the Buyan-M. They're small missile ships in the Soviet tradition. I hope the 22800 doesn't get built. It's a bad project. More 20380s makes more sense. They're real corvettes. A little over-gunned in the missile department, and too expensive, but they're much better then the sad Buyan-M or 22800.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure the information is reliable. It's a claim by a ranking VMF officer, but it doesn't sound right. Honestly I don't know.
I thi k he was wrong or else why are Yantar ordering equipment for huls 4 & 5?

Yeah it makes no sense. Honestly the 22800 are not really corvettes. Neither are the Buyan-M. They're small missile ships in the Soviet tradition. I hope the 22800 doesn't get built. It's a bad project. More 20380s makes more sense. They're real corvettes. A little over-gunned in the missile department, and too expensive, but they're much better then the sad Buyan-M or 22800.
Amur have a contract for another 2 20380's, which makes 4 for them. The Buyan-M's are all based in either the Black or Caspian Sea's, for where they are based they are probably all the ship that is required.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I thi k he was wrong or else why are Yantar ordering equipment for huls 4 & 5?
Do you have more details on this?

Amur have a contract for another 2 20380's, which makes 4 for them. The Buyan-M's are all based in either the Black or Caspian Sea's, for where they are based they are probably all the ship that is required.
4 built and 4 more ordered. A run of 8 ships is rather sad, given that we're talking about corvettes. Pretty much the entire VMF currently has ~4 corvettes and ~5 frigates. Everything else is missile boats, mine sweepers, and support vessels.

And it makes little sense to stick them into the BSF, unless they really need more cruise missiles there. Either way, even if plans are completed, the BSF by 2020 will have 6 frigates, 6 Kilo subs, and one upgraded missile cruiser, for longer range deployments. I think a batch of 20380s for the BSF would make a lot more sense. They could at least participate in anti-piracy missions, and the Mediterranean deployments.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Do you have more details on this?
What I supply is normally some of the last equipment to be ordered, if they are ordering my equipment they must be well into the procurement stage of the project. Which makes me think that it's still a live project and not cancelled.

4 built and 4 more ordered. A run of 8 ships is rather sad, given that we're talking about corvettes. Pretty much the entire VMF currently has ~4 corvettes and ~5 frigates. Everything else is missile boats, mine sweepers, and support vessels.
I make it 10 20380's, 4 from Amur, 6 from Severnaya, plus another 2 closely related 20385's at Severnaya.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
What I supply is normally some of the last equipment to be ordered, if they are ordering my equipment they must be well into the procurement stage of the project. Which makes me think that it's still a live project and not cancelled.
So 4 and 5 are still on? That would be nice. Theoretically a new frigate powerplant is supposed to be ready by 2018, but to be honest I discounted this as wishful thinking. Also some reports indicated that the second 3 11356 would be cancelled.

I make it 10 20380's, 4 from Amur, 6 from Severnaya, plus another 2 closely related 20385's at Severnaya.
Still rather sad. The BSF needs 6 ships, and the Pacific fleet could use more then just 4 ships. Of course now the 20386 is planned. But honestly I'm not sure what the big advantage is.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
What I supply is normally some of the last equipment to be ordered, if they are ordering my equipment they must be well into the procurement stage of the project. Which makes me think that it's still a live project and not cancelled.
They're saying they are thinking about selling them to India, making it possible to get the Ukrainian engines after all.

Technically that's still against the law in Ukraine, however Motor-Sich has been supplying engines to Russia anyways, citing the fact that the end-user is someone other then Russia. My guess is that they're hoping for similar behavior from Zorya.

Берлога Бронемедведа - ПриÑтроим в хорошие руки
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
Less interesting and more insane, OKR Lider may have turned into a nuclear battleship. Carrying 60 SS-N missiles, and 138 SAMs, with a displacement of 17500 tonns, and nuclear propulsion, it looks like a sci-fi-esque monstrosity, that really has no place in the modern world. Although there is some dispute about whether this ship, project 23560E is indeed the same as OKR Lider-1.

In fact there seem to be two variants of this behemoth, one with an extended helo deck capable of carrying maybe 4 helos.

nortwolf_sam - Модель ÐºÐ¾Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð»Ñ Ð¾ÐºÐµÐ°Ð½Ñкой зоны пр. 23560Ð* на форуме "ÐрмиÑ-2015"
http://www.balancer.ru/cache/sites/com/im/imgur/i/640x640/aqsfa1d.jpg

It gets more confusing since this source says it will have the 60 cruise/anti ship missiles, but only 14000 tons displacement with 350 crew, and the lead ship will be laid down in 2017.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ШеÑтидеÑÑтиракетный
Project 23560E is a pretty nice looking ship with that distinctive pagoda. A sort of redo of the Kirov class. I've illustrated at sea - see att:
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Project 23560E is a pretty nice looking ship with that distinctive pagoda. A sort of redo of the Kirov class. I've illustrated at sea - see att:
It's a horrifying monstrosity. The VMF needs a real next generation destroyer. Not a nuclear battleship. The likelihood of a major production run for the type is tiny. And the aging 1155s and 956s aren't going to be around forever.

Meanwhile project 18280 medium reconnaissance ship is entering VMF service officially. It's the first of a series of 4, with the second ship laid down already.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1401879.html

Also the VMF is getting its own flight school at Eysk, which previously was just a training center. The second link is some new photos of aircraft out of Eysk.

http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/516626.html
http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/517599.html

And the Admiral Nakhimov battlecruiser is set to return to service, upgraded, by 2018. Though personally I find this extremely optimistic. 2020 is a more realistic timeframe. Unless of course they reduce the spectrum of work planned. As is it was supposed to be a total upgrade, including weapons and command and control systems.

http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/516909.html
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's odd that there is interest in battle cruisers again as I understand it the reason the former USSR developed them in the first place was, like the Moskvas and Kievs, to serve as command and control nodes for the fleet. The old centralized system and the need to coordinate a multitude of single purpose platforms made such nodes indispensible.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's odd that there is interest in battle cruisers again as I understand it the reason the former USSR developed them in the first place was, like the Moskvas and Kievs, to serve as command and control nodes for the fleet. The old centralized system and the need to coordinate a multitude of single purpose platforms made such nodes indispensible.
It comes from a confluence of two factors. First is the VMF obsession with cruise missiles. To be specific, one system; the Kalibr. It goes on the Buyan-M light-corvettes, depriving them of any anti-submarine assets, and reducing them to a symbolic air defense asset (turning them into Soviet-style small missile ships rather then real light corvettes). It was planned for the project 20385 corvette. And while the 20386 doesn't plan for it currently, this may be a budget constraint. It's obviously going on the project 22350 frigates, and so the destroyer is naturally first and foremost a carrier of this weapon system. And as a larger ship, they want it to carry a lot of them. On top of that, there is a requirement for the new destroyer to carry not only theater SAMs (S-400F type system), but also ASAT and BMD. In other words, the S-500. And given not only the large size of that system, but the fact that it needs to coexist with traditional air defense, you end up with a monstrosity that has to carry over a hundred SAMs.

Which leaves a big question about it's anti-submarine capabilities, and unmanned systems both aerial and submersile. Anyways, it looks like a rather unrealistic project, and seriously hope it gets scrapped in favor of a regular destroyer. Something in the 8000 tonns area.

The worst thing is that if this expensive nuclear battlecruiser goes forward, it will likely mean no money for any real carriers. 12 are supposedly planned, which is extremely optimistic, and the price tag, as well as build time, are likely to be astronomical. They would be better off tossing that program, and going for the 21956 destroyer, with some changes, and a helicopter carrier. Basically a Mistralski, with destroyer escorts.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It comes from a confluence of two factors. First is the VMF obsession with cruise missiles. To be specific, one system; the Kalibr. It goes on the Buyan-M light-corvettes, depriving them of any anti-submarine assets, and reducing them to a symbolic air defense asset (turning them into Soviet-style small missile ships rather then real light corvettes). It was planned for the project 20385 corvette. And while the 20386 doesn't plan for it currently, this may be a budget constraint. It's obviously going on the project 22350 frigates, and so the destroyer is naturally first and foremost a carrier of this weapon system. And as a larger ship, they want it to carry a lot of them. On top of that, there is a requirement for the new destroyer to carry not only theater SAMs (S-400F type system), but also ASAT and BMD. In other words, the S-500. And given not only the large size of that system, but the fact that it needs to coexist with traditional air defense, you end up with a monstrosity that has to carry over a hundred SAMs.

Which leaves a big question about it's anti-submarine capabilities, and unmanned systems both aerial and submersile. Anyways, it looks like a rather unrealistic project, and seriously hope it gets scrapped in favor of a regular destroyer. Something in the 8000 tonns area.

The worst thing is that if this expensive nuclear battlecruiser goes forward, it will likely mean no money for any real carriers. 12 are supposedly planned, which is extremely optimistic, and the price tag, as well as build time, are likely to be astronomical. They would be better off tossing that program, and going for the 21956 destroyer, with some changes, and a helicopter carrier. Basically a Mistralski, with destroyer escorts.
A gp destroyer would be more sensible, just look at the USN, they started planning a small number of nuclear powered Strike Cruisers, then a similar or slightly greater number of CGNs to get AEGIS to sea before deciding to build a much larger number of Ticonderoga class cruisers that were originally classed as guided missile destroyers. Now the mainstay of the US combatant fleet is the Arleigh Burke class DDG, Russia could do well to keep this in mind.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
A gp destroyer would be more sensible,
GP means general purpose?

just look at the USN, they started planning a small number of nuclear powered Strike Cruisers,
Are you saying there were plans for nuclear cruisers in the USN? When was this?

then a similar or slightly greater number of CGNs to get AEGIS to sea before deciding to build a much larger number of Ticonderoga class cruisers that were originally classed as guided missile destroyers. Now the mainstay of the US combatant fleet is the Arleigh Burke class DDG, Russia could do well to keep this in mind.
I mean let's be honest, Russian ship buildings is in no condition, and the Russian budget isn't anywhere near large enough, to have a large number of cruisers in service. Realistically, if a regular destroyer project was successful, producing maybe 12-15 destroyers, then they could start looking at a program for 4-6 cruisers. Truly modern large warships. This would let them replace the current 1144 and 1164 almost on a 1 for 1 basis. And while they'd be considerably smaller, and probably wouldn't carry the S-500 (Russian ability to fit things into a smaller hull isn't great), it would give Russia a powerful and modern navy.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
GP means general purpose?



Are you saying there were plans for nuclear cruisers in the USN? When was this?



I mean let's be honest, Russian ship buildings is in no condition, and the Russian budget isn't anywhere near large enough, to have a large number of cruisers in service. Realistically, if a regular destroyer project was successful, producing maybe 12-15 destroyers, then they could start looking at a program for 4-6 cruisers. Truly modern large warships. This would let them replace the current 1144 and 1164 almost on a 1 for 1 basis. And while they'd be considerably smaller, and probably wouldn't carry the S-500 (Russian ability to fit things into a smaller hull isn't great), it would give Russia a powerful and modern navy.
Yes GP is general purpose.

The Strike Cruiser was late 70s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_cruiser
Strike Cruiser (CSGN)
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...CIQsARqFQoTCIP2rv-a-8YCFcPbpgodqUMISw&dpr=1.1
 

kev 99

Member
The worst thing is that if this expensive nuclear battlecruiser goes forward, it will likely mean no money for any real carriers. 12 are supposedly planned, which is extremely optimistic, and the price tag, as well as build time, are likely to be astronomical. They would be better off tossing that program, and going for the 21956 destroyer, with some changes, and a helicopter carrier. Basically a Mistralski, with destroyer escorts.
Fully agree, these ships would suck up available funds from carriers, everything about them looks way to ambitious; size, capability, requirements, numbers planned, it all just sounds completely unrealistic.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Are you saying there were plans for nuclear cruisers in the USN? When was this?
Yes. The Aegis system was ready for about a decade before there was a design in place and ships being built. Internal (mostly from Rickover who didn't want a Long Beach conversion and wanted new design reactors and hull) and external politics (from the president and US Congress) ended up making the strike cruiser concept be dead in the water and wasted years before the USN settled on the Tico, which BTW was supposed to be the "low end" design.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
France and Russia have formalized the end of the Mistral deal in a combination of cash refund and return of Russian technology. I find the return of tech the most interesting as this will incur additional expense for the removal and leave the ships bare. On the positive side they can now replace it with Western technologies and perhaps set them up for any potential transfer

France and Russia agree to Mistral export termination - IHS Jane's 360
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
I see the French as the losers in this deal, Russia has the designs for Mistral, it now has the knowhow to build a vessle of this type, and the French paid them for the privilage. France now looks weak, they were bullied by the Americans and the Baltic States into reneging on the deal, it makes them an untrustworthy supplier.
 
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