Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Ranger25]

I see the French as the losers in this deal, Russia has the designs for Mistral, it now has the knowhow to build a vessle of this type, and the French paid them for the privilage. France now looks weak, they were bullied by the Americans and the Baltic States into reneging on the deal, it makes them an untrustworthy supplier.

I wouldn't necessarily agree it was purely the US that pressured Hollande, the entire EU and NATO community was opposed to deliver and agreed on Sanctions since the invasion and annexation of Crimea

As for the tech, yes they now posses drawing, spec, etc, but give the the state of Military shipyards in Russia it would be very challenging to actually complete any build of this capacity.
And this is all in the context of the current economic situation Russia faces which would make it another challenge to fund the program

 

[AegisFC]

I see the French as the losers in this deal, Russia has the designs for Mistral, it now has the knowhow to build a vessle of this type, and the French paid them for the privilage. France now looks weak, they were bullied by the Americans and the Baltic States into reneging on the deal, it makes them an untrustworthy supplier.

Considering the state of Russian shipyards I wouldn't expect Russian copies any time soon, if at all. They can't even manage upgrades of existing equipment right now.

 

[SolarWind]

I wouldn't necessarily agree it was purely the US that pressured Hollande, the entire EU and NATO community was opposed to deliver and agreed on Sanctions since the invasion and annexation of Crimea

As for the tech, yes they now posses drawing, spec, etc, but give the the state of Military shipyards in Russia it would be very challenging to actually complete any build of this capacity.
And this is all in the context of the current economic situation Russia faces which would make it another challenge to fund the program

In the situation Russia is now, it is not clear that having the mistrals is better than having the money and tech. Low oil prices mean Russia can't afford the blue water navy that would justify spending on mistrals. Sanctions are causing significant delays in ship building. Mistrals would just be a money sink right now. Blue water navy is a nice to have for Russia, not a need even for Putin's possible expansionist goals.

 

[Ranger25]

In the situation Russia is now, it is not clear that having the mistrals is better than having the money and tech. Low oil prices mean Russia can't afford the blue water navy that would justify spending on mistrals. Sanctions are causing significant delays in ship building. Mistrals would just be a money sink right now. Blue water navy is a nice to have for Russia, not a need even for Putin's possible expansionist goals.

Agreed, the ongoing modernization of his land forces is more fitting.

 

[Volkodav]

I see the French as the losers in this deal, Russia has the designs for Mistral, it now has the knowhow to build a vessle of this type, and the French paid them for the privilage. France now looks weak, they were bullied by the Americans and the Baltic States into reneging on the deal, it makes them an untrustworthy supplier.

Actually the US and the Baltic States objected to and protested the deal from its inception and France carried on none the less so your statement really doesn't hold water. It was only the combination of international, specifically European and I dare say domestic pressure that saw delivery delayed, quite reasonable as money and votes counts more than US opinion.

As for the "knowhow" its not really that big an issue as the project owes more to Russia desiring the capability sooner than indigenous industries could deliver, ten years is what I believe they were estimating for delivery of a Russian designed and built ship verses only five years hooking into an established project. Russia has experienced an extended "valley of death" as far as building large naval vessels is concerned and they at least determined accurately that the capability can't simply be turned back on at a whim. It made sense to buy the Mistrals to get the capability sooner but once the Ukrainian situation delayed delivery that advantage was gone so getting their money back became the priority.

It will be interesting to see if they continue with the Mistral design, go with a modified or perhaps even a completely new design, they may even drop the requirement for now.

 

[Feanor]

Actually the US and the Baltic States objected to and protested the deal from its inception and France carried on none the less so your statement really doesn't hold water. It was only the combination of international, specifically European and I dare say domestic pressure that saw delivery delayed, quite reasonable as money and votes counts more than US opinion.

As for the "knowhow" its not really that big an issue as the project owes more to Russia desiring the capability sooner than indigenous industries could deliver, ten years is what I believe they were estimating for delivery of a Russian designed and built ship verses only five years hooking into an established project. Russia has experienced an extended "valley of death" as far as building large naval vessels is concerned and they at least determined accurately that the capability can't simply be turned back on at a whim. It made sense to buy the Mistrals to get the capability sooner but once the Ukrainian situation delayed delivery that advantage was gone so getting their money back became the priority.

It will be interesting to see if they continue with the Mistral design, go with a modified or perhaps even a completely new design, they may even drop the requirement for now.

They're not dropping the requirement. They've dropped the Ivan Gren series BDK instead and are proceeding with two domestic projects, ultimately one or both will be built. Though the timeframe is fuzzy.

 

[Volkodav]

They're not dropping the requirement. They've dropped the Ivan Gren series BDK instead and are proceeding with two domestic projects, ultimately one or both will be built. Though the timeframe is fuzzy.

I've always liked the look (and concept) of Soviet / Russian amphibious ships which, until the San Antonio class LPDs, appeared more robust and warlike, with quite heavy armament, defensive and in particular than their Western equivalents. A Russian LHD or even LPH would be very interesting to see and compare to other contemporary designs.

 

[Ranger25]

I've always liked the look (and concept) of Soviet / Russian amphibious ships which, until the San Antonio class LPDs, appeared more robust and warlike, with quite heavy armament, defensive and in particular than their Western equivalents. A Russian LHD or even LPH would be very interesting to see and compare to other contemporary designs.

Agreed. I've been impressed with the armament of Russian Carriers. Even the Kuznetsov has VLS cells for 192 missiles in addition to CIWS and cannons.

 

[swerve]

Don't see the sense of that. Better to have a carrier escorted by dedicated AAW ships, put land attack missiles on submarines or other surface ships, & use its deck space to maximise its main role. Stick some self-defence systems in corners to catch leakers - fine. But a huge battery of VLS silos on an aircraft carrier is a misuse of precious deck space, & could run into interference problems.

 

[Ranger25]

Don't see the sense of that. Better to have a carrier escorted by dedicated AAW ships, put land attack missiles on submarines or other surface ships, & use its deck space to maximise its main role. Stick some self-defence systems in corners to catch leakers - fine. But a huge battery of VLS silos on an aircraft carrier is a misuse of precious deck space, & could run into interference problems.

Great point

Thank You!

 

[Feanor]

I've always liked the look (and concept) of Soviet / Russian amphibious ships which, until the San Antonio class LPDs, appeared more robust and warlike, with quite heavy armament, defensive and in particular than their Western equivalents. A Russian LHD or even LPH would be very interesting to see and compare to other contemporary designs.

They've given up on the Soviet Large Landing Ship concept. The 11711 will see two ships built total, to augment the existing fleet and because they're already laid down. The rest of the money planned for them will be spent on a domestic helicopter-carrier project. Possibly two of them.

 

[Ranger25]

They've given up on the Soviet Large Landing Ship concept. The 11711 will see two ships built total, to augment the existing fleet and because they're already laid down. The rest of the money planned for them will be spent on a domestic helicopter-carrier project. Possibly two of them.

Makes sense for sure, given the economic conditions I don't see any larger projects happening soon.

 

[Feanor]

Makes sense for sure, given the economic conditions I don't see any larger projects happening soon.

Honestly I don't think it make sense. I think they should go ahead with the series of 6 11711s. They can replace and augment the existing and rapidly aging BDK fleet. Meanwhile they should work on a realistic LHD project instead of the inadequate Rotterdam-style Priboy. And of course the Lavina project from Krylov is sheer fantasy. Instead of trying to have everything and right away, they should use the Mistral-tech to build a Russian equivalent, possibly using a lot of the same systems. It would take them well past 2020 to get the first ship into service, but it would be a worthwhile vessel. And they wouldn't have a shortage in the meantime.

 

[Ranger25]

Honestly I don't think it make sense. I think they should go ahead with the series of 6 11711s. They can replace and augment the existing and rapidly aging BDK fleet. Meanwhile they should work on a realistic LHD project instead of the inadequate Rotterdam-style Priboy. And of course the Lavina project from Krylov is sheer fantasy. Instead of trying to have everything and right away, they should use the Mistral-tech to build a Russian equivalent, possibly using a lot of the same systems. It would take them well past 2020 to get the first ship into service, but it would be a worthwhile vessel. And they wouldn't have a shortage in the meantime.

It sounds as though they're having trouble simply getting the Gren Class built with a realistic schedule. Will be entertaining to see if the Lavina or Priboy enter or complete production

 

[Feanor]

It sounds as though they're having trouble simply getting the Gren Class built with a realistic schedule. Will be entertaining to see if the Lavina or Priboy enter or complete production

The problem was that the MoD kept changing their requirements for the type. The shipyard can produce the 11711s at a reasonable pace without many difficulties. Given the shortage of vessels I think they would be a cheap and timely stop-gap while they iron out and develop a real LHD.

 

[Ranger25]

The problem was that the MoD kept changing their requirements for the type. The shipyard can produce the 11711s at a reasonable pace without many difficulties. Given the shortage of vessels I think they would be a cheap and timely stop-gap while they iron out and develop a real LHD.

Agreed. And the 11711s seem to have decent capacity especially for regional duties. Observing the current geopoliticsl situation with Putin and the West they can apparently deploy overland to most potential hot spots.

 

[Ranger25]

Admiral Kuznetsov out of dry dock

Agreed. And the 11711s seem to have decent capacity especially for regional duties. Observing the current geopoliticsl situation with Putin and the West they can apparently deploy overland to most potential hot spots.

Admiral Kuznetsov returns from dry dock - IHS Jane's 360

 

[John Fedup]

Is the Russian Lider nuclear destroyer a serious proposal or just fantasy? If looks equated with capability it would an awesome addition to any naval fleet.

 

[Feanor]

Is the Russian Lider nuclear destroyer a serious proposal or just fantasy? If looks equated with capability it would an awesome addition to any naval fleet.

Somewhere between fantasy and reality. I'd classify it as lunacy, personally.

But yes, they really intend to build them. Finances and technology permitting.

 

[Feanor]

Some news.

So it looks like the Marshal Ustinov project 1164 cruiser will be in upgrade for longer, and will receive new missiles. What exactly it will get is unclear, but my money is on the Kalibr system, though it's possible new SAMs are also planned, or possibly exclusively planned.

ТÐСС: ÐÑ€Ð¼Ð¸Ñ Ð¸ ОПК - КрейÑер "Маршал УÑтинов" получит новый ракетный ÐºÐ¾Ð¼Ð¿Ð»ÐµÐºÑ Ð¸ вернетÑÑ Ð² Ñтрой в 2016 году

Also a new hovercraft landing ship is being developed by Almaz, based on the current Zubr. However it has yet to secure an MoD contract. Let's not forget the factory that produces the Zubr is in Crimea, and needs orders.

Крупнейший в мире малый деÑантный корабль - Берлога Бронемедведа

Finally, the Northern and Pacific fleets are getting the Bastion complex, and it looks like mass production of it will begin, with 4 btlns per year planned.

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EDIT: It's confirmed the Admiral Nakhimov heavy cruiser is getting the Kalibr as well. It's getting 80 launch tubes that can carry the Kalibr, the Oniks, or the Tsirkon (a new presumably hypersonic AShM). But it doesn't seem to be getting a new SAM, as they're installing the old Fort launchers back on it.

This will make it the biggest Kalibr cruise missile carrier in the VMF, with 80 missiles. The entire volley recently fired at targets in Syria had 26 missiles, and it took 4 ships. The entire cruise missile arsenal of the Caspian flotilla was in play (they can carry a max of 32). This ship, when completed, by itself will carry three volleys that size, and then some. It's also the first time the VMF will have cruise missile capability of this scope and scale against shore targets.

http://alexeyvvo.livejournal.com/149487.html
http://alexeyvvo.livejournal.com/148698.html