When America’s Stealth Monopoly Ends, What's Next?

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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A question to our aircraft experts.
Wouldn't the implemention of home on radar capabilities into a BVR missile be something valuable?
As far as I know AMRAAM fro example features home on jam capabilities additionally to it's normal active radar tracking.
So with the proliferation of stealth aircrafts I would assume that home on radar might be usefull as this might be the only way to send a bvr missile onto it's way until the missiles radar is close enough for a radar lock-on.

Now the professionals can start to destroy my idea. :D
 
S

Sintra

New Member
Waylander said:
A question to our aircraft experts.
Wouldn't the implemention of home on radar capabilities into a BVR missile be something valuable?
As far as I know AMRAAM fro example features home on jam capabilities additionally to it's normal active radar tracking.
So with the proliferation of stealth aircrafts I would assume that home on radar might be usefull as this might be the only way to send a bvr missile onto it's way until the missiles radar is close enough for a radar lock-on.

Now the professionals can start to destroy my idea. :D
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In the beggining of what became the MBDA Meteor, LFK proposed a dual "capability" seeker with an active K/Ku radar seeker coupled with a "radar-homing" system.
The objective of this "dual system guidance" was precisely what you described.
 
W

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Ah, thanks for the infos.

Do you know if there are plans to implement such a capability into other BVR-missiles, too?
 
S

Sintra

New Member
Waylander said:
Ah, thanks for the infos.

Do you know if there are plans to implement such a capability into other BVR-missiles, too?
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The still on paper JDRAAM his a candidate for such a capability.
There was also a small amount of Vympel R-27P´s that were built in 1991 at the Artem factory in Kiev, these AAM´s were delivered to the Russian Air Force, but it´s probable that they´ve have reached the end their own life-span. By 2004, Vympel was offering for export both the R-27P and an improved version the R-27PE.
 
S

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
funtz said:
:confused: if they know the position that the radar emissions and are able to update that information, it will be a track, and a guidance for weapons.
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What has been stated is that RWS systems give "general" bearing and "power levels".

This can no means be used to guide a missile.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
funtz said:
:confused: if they know the position that the radar emissions and are able to update that information, it will be a track, and a guidance for weapons.
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What weapon?

An active radar missile still requires targeting and guidance updates from an active fire control radar, before it gets close enough to go "active" on it's own. Hence why the good ones (such as modern AMRAAM missiles) are fitted with data-link systems.

A semi-active radar guided missile, requires command guidance from an active FCR along it's entire flight profile.

An IIR guided missile requires the target to be close enough for it's IIR seeker to acquire a target. Despite claims to the contrary IIR seeker acquisition ranges are well below that of radar guidance, hence MICA in the IR and EM variants...

Anti-radiation homing requires multiple seeker types, including active radar guidance (hence AARGM) to properly engagement moving targets, let alone targets with the manoeuvre capacity of a fighter aircraft. Hence why to date their have been few or no successful ARH seeker heads on air to air missiles.

JDRAAM is the USA's "next generation" "dual role" weapon, which will feature active radar guidance and anti-radiation capabilities in the one weapon and even then, I'm not entirely sure that this weapon will utilise it's ARH capacity in an air to air role.
 
S

shockwave11

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
What has that got to do with American stealth combat aircraft?
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OK
so are we talking about "STEALTH".You all people taking side of American stealth philosophy are looking like to be overconfident and you people think that you have all the knowledge of all weapons and electronics more then anybody else in this forum and. I don't know why .........may be because You
Aussie Digger you are super moderator and please don't suggest me about using internet everybody in this forum knows that you are a expert :lul

OK ok "STEALTH" .In my opinion its just a propaganda of US and all pro US firms .This technology is use only effective against those Afghanistan & Iraq like country.US & NATO also want to attack Iran & Nkorea (they are also Developing nuclear weapons)but they can't we all know why.As you all fans of American technology are thinking yours tech is far more better Sukhois are big flinging goose and their weapons R73/77 /27 are using many decades old technology then Mr.expert
you must know that Taiwan Using US tech is much worried about those obsolete Russian cum Chinese weapons
please don't say that Taiwanese are not worried at all my respectable expert sir:D
 
S

shockwave11

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
What has that got to do with American stealth combat aircraft?
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An another post to explain the benefits & limitations of so called "STEALTH"
every one must know stealth is not totally invisible
let us take a case of fight between F-22 & Su30MKI
because of better sensors F22 will detect the presence of Su30MKI first
and after some F22 will lock the Su30MKI and will fire one AIM120 missile
Su30MKI will detect that a AIM120 is approaching towards him.Then Su30MKI will fire one R77(AA-12 AMRAAMski) which will shoot down that AIM120 of F22 we must know that F22 can carry only six AIM120 in air to air mission just to remain stealth and Su30MKI can carry twelve in same role .And instead of F22 if this this plane is F16 or F18 Su30MKI will detect it at more than 150km. But because this is F22 detection range be less may be half.

And being three times cheaper than F22 Su30MKI will be in larger number for the same cost of their competitors .I think being a expert you know very well what does means(three times more fifteen aircraft carrying six times more missiles).OK let me tell it means the detection range of F22 stealth fighter will be increased significantly, missiles fired by F22s will be shot down very easily :p:
yea if you want to use these State of the art planes against any help less country having no good air force,no AWACS,not good air defense then this technology is my favorite also
 
T

the road runner

Active Member
shockwave11 said:
Mr.Road runner you very well said about SU30.But o man it looks like u know a little about BVR combat .And coz you senior member as you said i think you do know . Well i think when those fighter with Reduced radar crossection
put their radar beam on those big devils (who can carry a max pay load of 22 Ton) they(devils) will know somebody is looking them dosent matter that someb is stealth or reduced radar crosssec. And i think this will be not so good for those lill boys And girls like F18,F16,grippin etc whose total weight is less then 22 ton :shudder

plz tell me if i,m wrong
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shockwave11 all the info i have posted above i have learnt from this site.
Members share their info,and i read and take note of what the Defence Analyst and Serving members have to say about particular platforms.

You are right i know little about beyond visual range.(but i do read about it)

Also i am not a senior member(i never said i was senior member:confused:did i) or a Defence Analyst im actually a BUILDER by trade, that has an intrest in defence related matters.My lettering on my name is Purple just like yours:)

NOW I ASK YOU......
Will the Su30 go up against a F-18EFG?/F-16 platform Vs Platform?
NO, it go to war with ground based radar/tracking systems, AWACS, jamming,basically the full capability that one can bring.(hope we can agree on this point?)

Alot of new members(me included when i first joined)think that its F-18EFG Vs SU-30MKI ect.Platform Vs Platform.How nieve i was:p:

As for your points above on radars,yes you can be aware of an Aircraft rough position, but you cannot have cueing for a fire solution.

Aussie Digger has explained it Very well,(as you would expect all senior forum member to do)Thanx Digger!!

With Any Aircraft emiting power from its radar/trackig/cuieng systems ,you can have Passive(very difficult to detect)emissions and Active(detectable)emissions.The JSF will have alot of Passive equipment installed,making it very hard to detect.

shockwave11 said:
Well i think when those fighter with Reduced radar crossection
put their radar beam on those big devils (who can carry a max pay load of 22 Ton) they(devils) will know somebody is looking them dosent matter that someb is stealth or reduced radar crosssec.
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This logic dose not make sense to me

my reasoning why

The SU30 has a massive radar cross section(it will be detected first by F18 super bug ASEA)

The F18 super bug will have first shoot capability.

How can you honestley say that a SU30 tracking a LO or VLO aircraft will have the advantage in tracking/first shoot/kill capability?

You have totally dis regarded the ASEA Radar and LO features of the F-18EFG while for some reason thinking the BARS radar on the SU-30 will out preform the ASEA and LO features on the F-18:nutkick

I do not agree with your point of view sorry mate:p:
 
C

cobzz

New Member
shockwave11 said:
An another post to explain the benefits & limitations of so called "STEALTH"
every one must know stealth is not totally invisible
let us take a case of fight between F-22 & Su30MKI
because of better sensors F22 will detect the presence of Su30MKI first
and after some F22 will lock the Su30MKI and will fire one AIM120 missile
Su30MKI will detect that a AIM120 is approaching towards him.Then Su30MKI will fire one R77(AA-12 AMRAAMski) which will shoot down that AIM120 of F22 we must know that F22 can carry only six AIM120 in air to air mission just to remain stealth and Su30MKI can carry twelve in same role .And instead of F22 if this this plane is F16 or F18 Su30MKI will detect it at more than 150km. But because this is F22 detection range be less may be half.

And being three times cheaper than F22 Su30MKI will be in larger number no for the same cost of their competitors .I think being a expert you know very well what does means(three times more fifteen aircraft carrying six times more missiles).OK let me tell it means the detection range of F22 stealth fighter will be increased significantly, missiles fired by F22s will be shot down very easily :p:
yea if you want to use these State of the art planes against any help less country having no good air force,no AWACS,not good air defense then this technology is my favorite also
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If I had inferior missiles, then I would want to carry more also. :nutkick

And an R-77 shooting down an AMRAAM? LOL.
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Shockwave just a heads up. I am a patriot of Russian fighters, and would love nothing more then to see a Russian fighter outperform the competition by a wide margin. However, I have to be honest here. The current Flankers are far behind even the SH, never mind the Raptor. You are indeed wrong, on many levels. Please try to learn from what others have posted in response, then try to argue your way out of a situation where you clearly don't have the knowledge to debate.
 
S

shockwave11

New Member
cobzz said:
If I had inferior missiles, then I would want to carry more also. :nutkick

And an R-77 shooting down an AMRAAM? LOL.
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No doubt it can shot down AMRAAM or any other missile in service of any air force .hear is the link You can chq
http://warfare.ru/?lang=&linkid=2356&catid=262

And i cant understand why You think R77 is inferior to AIM120. It is more maneuverable,it has longer range .If you are thinking of ECM then you should know every thing having having electronics circuits is vulnerable to ECM either R77 or AIM120 or your pc :(
 
C

cobzz

New Member
shockwave11 said:
No doubt it can shot down AMRAAM or any other missile in service of any air force .hear is the link You can chq
http://warfare.ru/?lang=&linkid=2356&catid=262

And i cant understand why You think R77 is inferior to AIM120. It is more maneuverable,it has longer range .If you are thinking of ECM then you should know every thing having having electronics circuits is vulnerable to ECM either R77 or AIM120 or your pc :(
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Already addressed that. Forgotten?

RIF.

It says the warhead can destroy missiles, what kind of missiles? Tomahawk?
 
F

funtz

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
What weapon?

An active radar missile still requires targeting and guidance updates from an active fire control radar, before it gets close enough to go "active" on it's own. Hence why the good ones (such as modern AMRAAM missiles) are fitted with data-link systems.

A semi-active radar guided missile, requires command guidance from an active FCR along it's entire flight profile.

An IIR guided missile requires the target to be close enough for it's IIR seeker to acquire a target. Despite claims to the contrary IIR seeker acquisition ranges are well below that of radar guidance, hence MICA in the IR and EM variants...

Anti-radiation homing requires multiple seeker types, including active radar guidance (hence AARGM) to properly engagement moving targets, let alone targets with the manoeuvre capacity of a fighter aircraft. Hence why to date their have been few or no successful ARH seeker heads on air to air missiles.

JDRAAM is the USA's "next generation" "dual role" weapon, which will feature active radar guidance and anti-radiation capabilities in the one weapon and even then, I'm not entirely sure that this weapon will utilise it's ARH capacity in an air to air role.
Click to expand...
Once the targeting planes knows where the emitting radar is located they can guide a missile/missiles with IIR seeker or a Active radar seeker (Mica IR/EM) to that place and keep the missile updated to the changing position of the emitting radar through mid course correction mechanism.
 
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