When America’s Stealth Monopoly Ends, What's Next?

[YellowFever]

It wouldn't be Defencetalk without one of these threads popping up every now and then!

God, I love it.....LoL


Saddm, shockwave, when I first got here, I thought I was pretty hot stuff and my first few posts were more like lectures.

It took me about 20 minutes to discover that most of the people on this board (ummm..especially the person you're challenging) had most knowledge about this stuff in their little finger than I'll ever learn.

It would help you greatly if you do what I do:
Not post so much and just read..it'll help you alot and might be very educational.

 

[shockwave11]

It wouldn't be Defencetalk without one of these threads popping up every now and then!

God, I love it.....LoL


Saddm, shockwave, when I first got here, I thought I was pretty hot stuff and my first few posts were more like lectures.

It took me about 20 minutes to discover that most of the people on this board (ummm..especially the person you're challenging) had most knowledge about this stuff in their little finger than I'll ever learn.

It would help you greatly if you do what I do:
Not post so much and just read..it'll help you alot and might be very educational.

Yeah you are absolutely right all the members of this forum have great knowledge but i,m not challenging any body
and all those persons like ausicriper or diger who ever thy are totally pro us
and i,m not coz i,m neither American,Australian nor Russian
I'm 100% neutral
all these people all not at all neutral

And i think they should

 

[the road runner]

So lets review shall we.All you did in your previous post was insult me,APA and Wing CMDR Mills.By insulting APA you also indirectly insulted RAND and its study.So apparently you seem to have more experience than all of us.

I am Learning indeed.I am learning that DT has retarded moderators and members alike nfloorl:

BTW you are either blind or demented(or maybe both) the discussion is between F-35 and SU-35 BM.

You have No clue of what you are talking about have you

yes you have got me im still trying to learn,and with your philosophy you have come to DT a retard site to abuse the members?

i thought the discussion was on how much of a asset you are to the forum members,well enough of that,guess your gonna get banned BYE

 

[OPSSG]

@the road runner

I appreciate your attempt to explain to saadm some of the basics but he has not heeded your advice.

Off topic: Could you give me a hand with anan's questions in the Afghan Air Corps thread, as I don't seem to get through?

So lets review shall we.All you did in your previous post was insult me,APA and Wing CMDR Mills.By insulting APA you also indirectly insulted RAND and its study.So apparently you seem to have more experience than all of us...

You have No clue of what you are talking about have you

@saadm

Objectively speaking, the road runner knows much more than you. I won't even try to compare you with Abraham Gubler (he is a published writer in defence matters and has a military service history). The fact that you don't know that APA is not a respected source of defence related information is indicative of your ignorance.

I am Learning indeed.I am learning that DT has retarded moderators and members alike nfloorl:

@saadm

Objectively speaking, your ignorance of defence technology and other defence related matters is stunning. You are also rude. Further, I note that you have failed to take the advice of more informed senior forum members. Mods, can one of you intervene (as he does not seem to respect DT's forum rules)?

BTW you are either blind or demented(or maybe both) the discussion is between F-35 and SU-35 BM.

@saadm

Your attempt to argue a point is ill informed and lacking in facts. Do you understand defence matters or any of the F-35 technology discussed, such as VLO (and as discussed by Abraham Gubler)? Where are your links to sources on the aircraft technology discussed thus far? Please consider joining another forum appropriate for your mental and emotional age. :nutkick

Yeah you are absolutely right all the members of this forum have great knowledge but i,m not challenging any body
and all those persons like ausicriper or diger who ever thy are totally pro us
and i,m not coz i,m neither American,Australian nor Russian
I'm 100% neutral
all these people all not at all neutral

@shockwave11

Being neutral is not a substitute for knowledge of defence matters. There are a number of published defence writers on this forum and they enjoy the opportunity to interact with a number current serving military professionals, former military professionals or people working in the defence industry here in DT (ie. fellow forum participants with 'blue handles').

Please consider providing links, especially since your prior posts indicate that you are not well read in defence matters. Go to Intros and do a post on your background, so that we may decide to ignore or respond to your posts.

 

[Feanor]

Yeah sure. But it won't be a 5th generation fighter like the F-35. At best it will be a Super Hornet, Typhoon competitor. I also doubt we will see this "FLACID" in squadron service before 2020.

What are the key features of a 5th gen. aircraft? Feel free to add to my list.

1) mature AESA
2) VLO airframe
3) advanced IRST
4) advanced BVR datalinked missiles

By the way, the Su-35BM is already aiming at the SH/Typhoon competitor league. Either Sukhoi is already sure that the Su-35BM will be inferior and therefore needs the PAK-FA, or the PAK-FA is meant to provide something that the Su-35BM won't have (like one or more of the 5th. gen features I listead).

 

[Aussie Digger]

Great u knowledge is Quit impressive
you sad PA-KFA will probably be similar to Eurofighter or Super Hornet Block II, in terms of capability.
ok tell me what do think about SU-35 & Su-30MKI(Indian Sukhoi)

They are big fighters with impressive maneuvrability that are massively over-hyped by internet wannabes such as yourself.

They have availability rates approaching one third that of Western fighters.

They have radar cross sections the size of "flying barns".

These "enormous missile loads" that make the Chris Mills of the world (I refuse to call him "Wing Commander, because if he knew what the chain of command was he actually WOULD still BE a Wing Commander) froth at the mouth, induce enormous amounts of drag which reduces their famed maneuvrability into irrelevance. Oh, and does their RCS absolutely no good whatsoever at the same time...

Still if my missiles had such a low Pk, I suppose I'd want more too.

But please, continue with your APA inspired arguments.

I suppose next you'll argue that the West only has the massive air to air dominance that it does because of it's "full" capability and then turn around and write about how easy it is to kill these "support" assets, just like Carlo et al?

Be my guest. We need more laughs around here.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

What are the key features of a 5th gen. aircraft? Feel free to add to my list.

Actually I mentioned the key features earlier on in this thread. They are very low observability (-30 to -40 dBsm) and super powerful computing capability for high end data fusion, networked warfare and automatic flight control. AESA, IRST and two way data link missiles are capabilities that need the high end data fused flight and mission control system to leverage their capability. Without this kind of thing they just add workload to the pilot and push them back in the Boyd Cycle.

These two capabilities are the crucial developments that significantly affect situational awareness. They decrease the enemies SA and boost the friendlies SA. Its this SA capability that defines a fifth generation fighter. The Russians have not demonstrated any capability to deliver VLO and high end data fusion in a fighter platform.

By the way, the Su-35BM is already aiming at the SH/Typhoon competitor league.

No its not. The Su-35BM will not have the tactically significant frontal RCS of the Super Hornet or Typhoon or the high end mission systems of the Block II Super Hornet. So it will be hugely disadvantaged in the battle for SA against either of these platforms.

Either Sukhoi is already sure that the Su-35BM will be inferior and therefore needs the PAK-FA, or the PAK-FA is meant to provide something that the Su-35BM won't have (like one or more of the 5th. gen features I listead).

Sukhoi are not in the business of capability definition. Sukhoi are in the business of designing and building aircraft. The Russian Air Force is in the business of capability development and their Government of building national power and modernising industry - for the benefit of their citizens (apparently). So the PAK-FA is born as a modernisations of Russian and friendly defence power (better than the FLANKER), vital modernisation of their industry and hopefully for Russia continued exports.

None of these requirements define a combat system able to challenge the F-22, F-35 et al. If they did Russia would need to be spending at least 100 billion in the next 5 years just to acquire the basic technology.

 

[Vivendi]

Thanks to Abraham and others for many interesting comments in this thread!

It seems clear that capability-wise there will be quite a distance between PAK FA and the F-35 and F-22 -- however, one thing I am wondering about, is the role India may play.

I have the impression that we already see an arms race India vs. China and arms races tend to focus minds quite a lot. What I am driving at is that India, which is sponsoring a (huge?) part of PAK FA development probably wants a real 5. gen fighter similar to F-35 in the not too distant future.

So, when Indian politicians fully realize that PAK FA is a far cry from F-35, I suggest they may consider one of the following options:

1. Start development of a "true" 5. gen fighter, using the learnings from PAK FA. This may happen either in collaboration with Russia, or it could also be in collaboration with another partner(s) (e.g., France and Israel)

2. Purchase F-35...

If they go for option 1 then perhaps there is a chance they will be able to narrow the gap to F-35 considerably? On the one hand, India should have learned quite a lot from developing Tejas (people tend learn from mistakes) OTOH, looking at how long it takes India to develop the Tejas I do wonder....

Regarding China: My impression is that they are behind Russia/India in "5. gen" development, and clearly they are working hard to close the gap to India, I guess the question remains, how quickly can they close the gap?


Comments from the experts?

V

 

[Aussie Digger]

Comments from the experts?

V

It is hard for me to see, without the massive, sustained investment that the USA has made in VLO and SA technology, how exactly the capability is going to be replicated?

The "basics are out there argument" is a strawman. The USA knew the "basics" as well. It still took them hundreds of billions to get to the point where they could build fighters with full VLO capability that match or exceed the physical performance, agility, range and overall combat capability of legacy aircraft.

Look at the main foreign users of the current in-service "state of the art" Russian jets, the SU-30.

They use a significant portion of Western avionics and sensor systems, went to the expense of integrating them on a Russian platform and even Russia itself uses the Damocles targetting pod.

I am quite sure Russia will build a capable next generation fighter. Talk of it being "better than this or that" is utter nonsense.

No-one has even seen it. According to Kopp, Goon etc, a visual inspection of a photograph is sufficient to determine precisely what the VLO level of an aircraft is and so far, no-one has even seen a photo of the PAK-FA

Yet Russian sources, including Sukhoi state the PAK-FA WILL be flying in 2009.

Well here is the first Australian Super Hornet's front fuselage on the production line:

http://www.defpro.com/data/gfx/news/035440d92120d82fd38b0f1d528c68171d68f7a8_big.jpg

It WILL be flying this year.

The Russian aircraft HAS to be this advanced or more so, if it is going to fly this year, so where are the pics? Is an unfinished design THAT classified, that component parts can't be photographed and shown to the world, proving the thing exists, let alone verify claims of flight in 2009, when it most assuredly WILL be photographed?

I would suggest that Russia has a LONG way to go, before it brings into service a 5th generation fighter that beats "anything".

 

[shockwave11]

They are big fighters with impressive maneuvrability that are massively over-hyped by internet wannabes such as yourself.

They have availability rates approaching one third that of Western fighters.

They have radar cross sections the size of "flying barns".

These "enormous missile loads" that make the Chris Mills of the world (I refuse to call him "Wing Commander, because if he knew what the chain of command was he actually WOULD still BE a Wing Commander) froth at the mouth, induce enormous amounts of drag which reduces their famed maneuvrability into irrelevance. Oh, and does their RCS absolutely no good whatsoever at the same time...

Still if my missiles had such a low Pk, I suppose I'd want more too.

But please, continue with your APA inspired arguments.

I suppose next you'll argue that the West only has the massive air to air dominance that it does because of it's "full" capability and then turn around and write about how easy it is to kill these "support" assets, just like Carlo et al?

Be my guest. We need more laughs around here.

OK Mr.Aussie Digger Now i.m sure u r the most intelligent person
in western world
U should tell Pentagon that the Russian & chines dont have any thing
we need to be worried about
so instead of Spending money on all those advance technology like F22 which cost more then 60 billion$ and f35 = 30 Billion$
total is approximately 100Billion$
we dont need stealth because their sensors are totally use less they cant see our F15s or F18 And if some how they see these planes
they cant shot them down coz their Missiles i.e R-77/73
are totally use less they have the same seaker which was designed in 1990s

and you should do it ass soon as possible it,s your moral responsibility
to tell them fact figures
coz they are spending tax payers money for nothing

 

[rabs]

OK Mr.Aussie Digger Now i.m sure u r the most intelligent person
in western world
U should tell Pentagon that the Russian & chines dont have any thing
we need to be worried about
so instead of Spending money on all those advance technology like F22 which cost more then 60 billion$ and f35 = 30 Billion$
total is approximately 100Billion$
we dont need stealth because their sensors are totally use less they cant see our F15s or F18 And if some how they see these planes
they cant shot them down coz their Missiles i.e R-77/73
are totally use less they have the same seaker which was designed in 1990s

and you should do it ass soon as possible it,s your moral responsibility
to tell them fact figures
coz they are spending tax payers money for nothing

Reading that was painful, I will do you a favor and re-write that into something approaching English.

Ok Mr. Aussie Digger, I am sure you are the most intelligent person in the western world. You should tell the Pentagon that the Russians and Chinese do not have anything that you need to be worried about.

So instead of spending money on all those technologically advanced aircraft such as the F-22 and F-35, which costs over sixty million dollars and for the F-35 thirty billion dollars. The total of these two projects cost roughly a hundred billion dollars. (with sales tax?)

We do not need stealth because Russian and Chinese sensors are useless against F-15s and F-18s. Even if their senors do somehow see the aircraft they can not shoot them down because their missiles are totally useless because they have the same seeker from the 1990s.

You should take this action as soon as possible, it is your moral responsibility to stop the American government from wasting tax payers dollars.
I know my grammar is not perfect, but I see a marked improvement.

 

[Feanor]

Actually I mentioned the key features earlier on in this thread. They are very low observability (-30 to -40 dBsm) and super powerful computing capability for high end data fusion, networked warfare and automatic flight control. AESA, IRST and two way data link missiles are capabilities that need the high end data fused flight and mission control system to leverage their capability. Without this kind of thing they just add workload to the pilot and push them back in the Boyd Cycle.

These two capabilities are the crucial developments that significantly affect situational awareness. They decrease the enemies SA and boost the friendlies SA. Its this SA capability that defines a fifth generation fighter. The Russians have not demonstrated any capability to deliver VLO and high end data fusion in a fighter platform.

How would you suggest being able to judge whether Russia has the mission control system required for this? Given the secrecy surrounding the project.

No its not. The Su-35BM will not have the tactically significant frontal RCS of the Super Hornet or Typhoon or the high end mission systems of the Block II Super Hornet. So it will be hugely disadvantaged in the battle for SA against either of these platforms.

I have seen claims that the Su-35BM has the RCS of a tennis ball. How accurate do you think those are? Is it even possible?

Sukhoi are not in the business of capability definition. Sukhoi are in the business of designing and building aircraft. The Russian Air Force is in the business of capability development and their Government of building national power and modernising industry - for the benefit of their citizens (apparently). So the PAK-FA is born as a modernisations of Russian and friendly defence power (better than the FLANKER), vital modernisation of their industry and hopefully for Russia continued exports.

Iirc it was Zelin who said that the PAK-FA would be something to match the F-22.

None of these requirements define a combat system able to challenge the F-22, F-35 et al. If they did Russia would need to be spending at least 100 billion in the next 5 years just to acquire the basic technology.

I suspect that with the full development cost, and the rising military budget, by the 2020 timeframe the total project cost will be pretty high. I don't know about hundreds of billions, but the ~100 billion you talk about may become a reality.

 

[shockwave11]

Saadm welcome to the forum.All i can say is try and listen to what some of the Senior forum members have to say(you will learn alot).

You think i need to read more of APA?Sorry but i would rather rub sand paper on my b@!!$.Try and come here with an open mind and attitude.

Wing CMNDR Mills lol i saw him on the ABC report talking about F18 Vs Su30,what a joke that was.He talked about how an F18 would be a sitting duck.
First .....he was talking about a platform Vs platform(F18 Vs Su30)

So Saadm my question to you is will the F18 just go up against a Su30 with no other assets in the package? WILL IT?(are you Australian saadm?)

And there is an old saying.......you catch more flys with honey than you do vinegar.try and be diplomatic and show manners to other forum members.
Were all here to learn from one another

Shockwave11 i consoider the Su30 to be a exceptional strike/fighter,and awsome aircraft but in the 21st century,Aircraft that have a large radar cross section will be sitting ducks.The Su30 has a Radar cross section of about 4.5 meters,a massive RCS.This i see as a major issue/weakness, when going up against Aircraft like the F18EFG.

Mr.Road runner you very well said about SU30.But o man it looks like u know a little about BVR combat .And coz you senior member as you said i think you do know . Well i think when those fighter with Reduced radar crossection
put their radar beam on those big devils (who can carry a max pay load of 22 Ton) they(devils) will know somebody is looking them dosent matter that someb is stealth or reduced radar crosssec. And i think this will be not so good for those lill boys And girls like F18,F16,grippin etc whose total weight is less then 22 ton :shudder

plz tell me if i,m wrong

 

[Feanor]

Mr.Road runner you very well said about SU30.But o man it looks like u know a little about BVR combat .And coz you senior member as you said i think you do know . Well i think when those fighter with Reduced radar crossection
put their radar beam on those big devils (who can carry a max pay load of 22 Ton) they(devils) will know somebody is looking them dosent matter that someb is stealth or reduced radar crosssec. And i think this will be not so good for those lill boys And girls like F18,F16,grippin etc whose total weight is less then 22 ton :shudder

plz tell me if i,m wrong

I don't think the Flanker series currently carry any way of targetting a hostile AESA radar that locks on to them.

 

[shockwave11]

I don't think the Flanker series currently carry any way of targetting a hostile AESA radar that locks on to them.

No man i,m not saying that these Russian planes can target the planes who lock them BUT they have radar Warners at least .And if any other fighter plane
dosent matter either reduced radar crossection or stealth try to lock on these planes they will see them

 

[Feanor]

So the Flankers will know if they're being painted. Great. Does it help? Yes. A lot? Not really. What's your point?

 

[Aussie Digger]

so instead of Spending money on all those advance technology like F22 which cost more then 60 billion$ and f35 = 30 Billion$
total is approximately 100Billion$
we dont need stealth because their sensors are totally use less they cant see our F15s or F18 And if some how they see these planes
they cant shot them down coz their Missiles i.e R-77/73
are totally use less they have the same seaker which was designed in 1990s

and you should do it ass soon as possible it,s your moral responsibility
to tell them fact figures
coz they are spending tax payers money for nothing

You truly are clueless.

Before we continue any discussions, here is what I require from you as a moderator of this site.

1. Cut out your "Y generation" abbreviations. It is an indication of laziness, makes your post difficult to read and reduces the effectiveness of your argument.

2. Use a spell checker. It isn't terribly difficult. Most word processor programs will even do it for you.

3. Attempt to put some thought into your post, rather than filling it with meaningless drivel. Google isn't hard to use and it's free.

As an example of what I mean I shall use your "R-77/R-73 use the same seeker comment".

Step one.

Open up a tab and type in: www.google.com.

Step two.

Type: R-77 seeker into google.

This provides 121,000 hits and the first link shows that the R-77 is a beyond visual range active guided missile, which uses the: 9B1103M active radar seeker.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=R-77+seeker&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Step 3.

Type "R-73 seeker" into google.

This returns 111,000 hits and the very first page reveals that the R-73 is a within visual range infra-red guided missile.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=R-73+seeker&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Therefore, doing nothing more than typing the same words you have used into Google and pasting the links here, I have conclusively proven that your comment was incorrect.

That is how one debates. One makes a claim, supports it and allows the other to respond.

Now it is your turn. Please make a claim, support it with research and let us talk about defence.

 

[Aussie Digger]

No man i,m not saying that these Russian planes can target the planes who lock them BUT they have radar Warners at least .And if any other fighter plane
dosent matter either reduced radar crossection or stealth try to lock on these planes they will see them

No they won't.

Once again, open up google.

type in, "how does a radar warning receiver work"?

You will get 62,400 hits, the first will be a wiki article explaining the basics to you I suggest you read it.

A radar warning receiver, detects transmitted radar signals. It can provide a bearing, some idea of distance, some idea of power and frequency of the emitting radar and some idea of the type of radar "painting" the aircraft.

What it does NOT do is allow you to "see" the other aircraft, nor does it allow you to TARGET the other aircraft and put a weapon on it.

Now, my claim is the current generation of Western AESA radar systems in fighter aircraft are significantly longer ranging than Russian radar systems, offer greater electronic counter measures capability and have a lower probability of intercept than the Russian radar systems.

Thus the first thing your Sukhoi pilot will know from his radar warning receiver, is when an AMRAAM, Meteor or MICA missile goes into "active" mode and is therefore well within it's NEZ, which would be a very unhappy situation for the Sukhoi pilot..

Please refute this claim and we can have a discussion.

 

[kato]

What it does NOT do is allow you to "see" the other aircraft, nor does it allow you to TARGET the other aircraft and put a weapon on it.

Except two RWRs and the right software make up a decent decent system for calculating the position of radar emitters. And there are missiles and aircraft that use just that to find their targets.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Except two RWRs and the right software make up a decent decent system for calculating the position of radar emitters. And there are missiles and aircraft that use just that to find their targets.

What they don't do is provide tracking and guidance for weapons...