Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[gf0012-aust]

we are in fact buying these platforms of the USN rather than Boeing. Therefore we weren't in a position to negotiate.

Not so. First contact in negotiations was circa April 2006. There have been ongoing negotiations.

We actually got a very very good deal via the USN's willingness to break production and allow us in.

All up price includes through life/contract support - by any measure it's a good deal against the capability base we're acquiring...

 

[Sea Toby]

1st, it was short notice because we are in a pinch due to the pig's , we are in fact buying these platforms of the USN rather than Boeing. Therefore we weren't in a position to negotiate.

2nd, quoted platform prices are fickle things. The tricky thing is a platforms actual price is actually quite hard to determine, its not like a car. Every deal is different, and therefore the price for a fighter changes for every different customer. The $45m figure could be a number of things, it could be a UFC, a UPC it may be bare bones, it may be ect. Every deal includes hardware, logistical support, weapons, spares & training. Therefore the actual price can change quite a bit between deals.

Anyway i'm not sure we got such a bad deal. IIRC the recent Algerian(?) deal for 24 F-16 Block 50's (much cheaper and less sophistocated), if all the options are taken will cost $2.4bn USD, we spent $2.9bn on 24 SH BII's. Not too shabby...

Nine years ago New Zealand passed on a 10 year lease of US $ 700 million for 28 ex-Pakistani F-16s, earlier versions of better than Block 15s, but creampuffs never-the-less, with the ability to buy them after that lease for the same amount, or for a grand total of US $1.4 billion. Just about every year since there has been as much a surplus if not a whole lot more. Even if they resold half of the 28, leaving them 14, they could have cut that price in half, allowing someone else a great deal on creampuffs.

I don't know what to cry more about, squandering a billion dollars on the Sea Sprites or cancelling the deal of the century.

 

[McTaff]

Nine years ago New Zealand passed on a 10 year lease of US $ 700 million for 28 ex-Pakistani F-16s, earlier versions of better than Block 15s, but creampuffs never-the-less, with the ability to buy them after that lease for the same amount, or for a grand total of US $1.4 billion. Just about every year since there has been as much a surplus if not a whole lot more. Even if they resold half of the 28, leaving them 14, they could have cut that price in half, allowing someone else a great deal on creampuffs.

I don't know what to cry more about, squandering a billion dollars on the Sea Sprites or cancelling the deal of the century.

Both of those choices were made (whether either country likes to admit it or not) based on what Australia was doing at the time. New Zealand has a far greater reliance on Australia for Defence spending than meets the eye.

Disbanding their combat Air Force on 2001 was probably not the craziest idea, given the fairly remote location and the expanse of ocean that potential aggressors would have to cross to reach them; the reliance on outside help if this should happen is to the extreme but when the actual odds are calculated it is a fairly safe bet according to the majority of public analysts.

The last I heard was that in theory the Aeromacchi fleet could be resurrected, and with a bit more work the A-4 fleet could be restored. This seems unlikely, and we may even see them sold or scrapped in the near future given the loss of experienced pilots, instructors and maintainers with the attrition of time.

One can only hope that they would be available for private sale.

 

[PeterM]

The world military situation has changed alot in the last 9 years

There has been strong interest by the NZ National Party in restoring a combat arm to the NZAF if they come into government.

Most likely this would be a squadron or two of JSF, particularly as Australian industry will benefit from the JSF program and will be able to provide improved support opportunities for the RAAF.

In any case this thread is about Australian Air Force

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The world military situation has changed alot in the last 9 years

There has been strong interest by the NZ National Party in restoring a combat arm to the NZAF if they come into government.

Most likely this would be a squadron or two of JSF, particularly as Australian industry will benefit from the JSF program and will be able to provide improved support opportunities for the RAAF.

In any case this thread is about Australian Air Force

I seriously dobt the NZ govt would fork out the cash for a multi squadron purchase of F-35A's. 24 tops....

Anyway the restoration of the combat air arm to the RNZAF would be a great thing IMO, if it is warrented.

 

[StingrayOZ]

So whats the deal with the RAAF now..

Get the 24 SH. Ok, not bad, could be a niche useful aircraft for its entire life and gives us way more than what we got now. Throw in some growler kit later, when its sorted and deemed valuable and a nice little addition.

Get how many F-35's? I was thinking it would degrade the number of F-35 but I still hear 100 (down from crazy 120 estimates).. I would have thought anything over 75 would still give us an extremely capable force.

The only way I see NZ re-establishing an airforce is with Australian partnership based on Australian soil. Then the NZers could add as many F-35 as wished to our pool. 8, 16, 24.. However I *REALLY* wished they threw the coin down for 8 or 16 F-35B's. Giving the RNAF a incredably sexy peice of kit, something really handy for our region of ocean and islands, and stopping the infighting of RAAF/RAN etc. In emergency they could load them on container ships or the LHD's or what not...

 

[barra]

So whats the deal with the RAAF now..

Get the 24 SH. Ok, not bad, could be a niche useful aircraft for its entire life and gives us way more than what we got now. Throw in some growler kit later, when its sorted and deemed valuable and a nice little addition.

Get how many F-35's? I was thinking it would degrade the number of F-35 but I still hear 100 (down from crazy 120 estimates).. I would have thought anything over 75 would still give us an extremely capable force.

The only way I see NZ re-establishing an airforce is with Australian partnership based on Australian soil. Then the NZers could add as many F-35 as wished to our pool. 8, 16, 24.. However I *REALLY* wished they threw the coin down for 8 or 16 F-35B's. Giving the RNAF a incredably sexy peice of kit, something really handy for our region of ocean and islands, and stopping the infighting of RAAF/RAN etc. In emergency they could load them on container ships or the LHD's or what not...

Two things

1) The term "Growler kits" makes the potential modification of F/A-18F to E/A-18G sound like a simple add on process, which it ain't. The idea that all the looms required are already in place in every -F that Boeing builds and all that is required is to add on your EW kit and hey presto one all singing, all dancing E/A-18G emerges is ridiculous. CDF tells me that they are two very different aircraft with some commonality with the airframe. If the RAAF goes down this path they will hopefully buy off the shelf versions exactly the same as the USN. 4-6 airframes should be enough for a EW flight.

2) NZ ain't got the coin or desire for JSF. If they turned down the sweetheart deal of the century on the F-16's then CDF also tells me that kiwi JSF's is almost as fanciful as Aussie F-22's.

 

[sunderer]

I have heard that all except the first few Supers will be delivered with the wiring looms in place and they will only need the addition of the pods to be ready to go as Growlers as needed.

 

[battlensign]

On the F-18E/Fs..

As mentioned before, it was the intention of the DOD/RAAF under the leadership of the previous DEFMIN to sell the F-18E/Fs back to the USN; leaving the ultimate number of JSF at whatever was to be purchased anyway (irrespective of an initial F-18E/F interim purchase). The interesting question is whether this plan has changed.....

Brett.

 

[Sea Toby]

As mentioned before, it was the intention of the DOD/RAAF under the leadership of the previous DEFMIN to sell the F-18E/Fs back to the USN; leaving the ultimate number of JSF at whatever was to be purchased anyway (irrespective of an initial F-18E/F interim purchase). The interesting question is whether this plan has changed.....

Brett.

I believe 24 Super Hornets were bought by the last governmet. The new government is writing a new White Paper, and will either buy more Super Hornets, or buy Lightning IIs; whether 25, 50, 75, or 100. The new government can sell the Super Hornets back to the US or may decide to buy more Super Hornets. I believe the thinking is the longer they delay buying the Lightning IIs, the cheaper they will cost. You can probably count Labor will do it differently than Liberal. Its a new different defence minister.

So I suspect we will have to wait and see what the new government does. You never know, the new defense minister may decide to kill the air combat force entirely, although I doubt it.

 

[icelord]

I believe 24 Super Hornets were bought by the last governmet. The new government is writing a new White Paper, and will either buy more Super Hornets, or buy Lightning IIs; whether 25, 50, 75, or 100. The new government can sell the Super Hornets back to the US or may decide to buy more Super Hornets. I believe the thinking is the longer they delay buying the Lightning IIs, the cheaper they will cost. You can probably count Labor will do it differently than Liberal. Its a new different defence minister.

So I suspect we will have to wait and see what the new government does. You never know, the new defense minister may decide to kill the air combat force entirely, although I doubt it.

WHAT WHAT WHAT!?!

First and foremost this is RAAF not RNZAF, we have a large coastline with many unstable countries to the north timkering between coups of bad and worse, to remove the Combat force would be suicidal, especially when the Def Min electorate holds a 50-50 split between Singleton based Army Personnel,and the other half is RAAF Williamtown staff. the combat wings crew would not appreciate any threat and he would cop a few low fly bys at 3am out on his property if they were threatened(believe me, they'd know where he lives )

It would not surprise me if this white paper came out and said buy more fighters...much to the Govts. accounting departments pleasure

 

[barra]

ST. LOUIS, Oct. 25, 2005 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] is installing the first radio frequency (RF) cables in the EA-1 aircraft as it continues production of the first two EA-18G flight test aircraft, EA-1 & EA-2.

RF cabling is essential in connecting the specialized avionics required to perform the airborne electronic attack mission of the EA-18G. When completed, each aircraft will have more than 2,500 feet of RF cabling, about five times the amount installed in the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, which shares a common airframe with the EA-18G.

"We're right on schedule with the modifications," says Bob Feldmann, EA-18G program manager for Boeing. "Every day, we move closer to our goal of flying this aircraft, and demonstrating its incredible capabilities for our Navy customer."

The cabling runs throughout the entire aircraft and takes special care to install. Cables range in length from 30 to 270 inches, requiring additional time for the installation process, according to Darryl Lyons, the supervisor in the St. Louis modification shop where the work is being completed.

To ensure quality, the cable is tripled-checked, initially by the supplier, then checked after forward fuselage installation, and finally at the aircraft level. Cable installation is one part of the modification of EA-1 and EA-2 scheduled for first flight in September and November 2006, respectively.

From the Boeing website

Not definitive but it does illustrate my point, the EA mod is more than a few extra looms added to a -F model airframe. The cabling mentioned is only the RF cabling as well, you would also require cabling to power the systems, video lines and mux looms for communication between MC's and EA systems . I can't see the point of incurring the cost of installing looms you may never use and the weight penalty it would also incur.

Having that amount of cabling sitting idle in the airframe also creates problems with electromagnetic enviromental effects. Aircraft involved in a lightning event could have the lightning use those looms as a "path of least resistance" instead of the designed lightning path. Aircraft involved in events like this suffer major damage when the lightning reaches the end of the loom and has not got a path to dissipate further. Usually ends with a hole in the aircraft.

Thats my story anyway, and I am sticking to it!

 

[StingrayOZ]

Proberly a good eason to to order the EF versions from purchase.

I did hear that it was easier to convert later SH than earlier ones. But that could mean its still slightly less than a whole CBR...

 

[Magoo]

Proberly a good eason to to order the EF versions from purchase.

I did hear that it was easier to convert later SH than earlier ones. But that could mean its still slightly less than a whole CBR...

Just to elaborate from what Barra said...

The Block II F/A-18Fs come fitted for, but not with the EA-18G wiring looms. That means the appropriate conduits (i.e. 'holes') have been pre-drilled or pre-cast into the bulkheads and wing spars etc through which the additional wiring would be run.

The Block II forward fuselage was redesigned from the Block I, and is therefore capable of carrying the APG-79 AESA as well as all the funky boxes that the EA-18G carries, whereas the Block I nose is not.

Cheers

Magoo

 

[sunderer]

So is the defence talk jury still out on wether ours are getting the wiring done before delivery or not?

 

[PeterM]

So is the defence talk jury still out on wether ours are getting the wiring done before delivery or not?

I would imagine that they won't be fitted as standard.

I have heard that the RAAF would like to get a couple of EA-18G instead of standard F/A-18Fs. In which case two aircraft may be fitted with the additional wiring.

 

[McTaff]

I would imagine that they won't be fitted as standard.

I have heard that the RAAF would like to get a couple of EA-18G instead of standard F/A-18Fs. In which case two aircraft may be fitted with the additional wiring.

Agreed.

Doubtful we'd commission fitting the stuff here. Not enough for an economy of scale, and we don't have the experience in the field. Best off getting them built and delivered working instead of spending money employing people to be trained in fitting it all, and having to iron out problems.

If we get any it'll be a working airframe with all the bits jammed in it already except for any locally made, RAAF specific systems (which would probably be a small list, if any)

After the SeaSprite debacle, it is unlikely we'll see any full scale development of anything that can fly that we can buy that works right out of the box anyway.

 

[weasel1962]

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[Aussie Digger]

Recent contracts and announcements.

LAIRCM procurement

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Australia_08-61.pdf

18 ATFLIRS purchased

http://www.defenselink.mil/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=3782
http://www.defenselink.mil/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=3781

Another $139m for training RAAF F-18 pilots.

http://www.defenselink.mil/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=3779

btw, it doesn't mean that the RAAF will have ATFLIR capability

Pardon?

RAAF most certainly HAVE specified ATFLIR for it's upcoming F/A-18F Super Hornets...

These are the contract award announcements, unless I'm mistaken?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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