Irish Defence Forces

swerve

Super Moderator
I take it this means that not being a part of NATO means not being obligated to particiapte in adventures ike Iraq or Afghanistan, thus no need for "heavy warfare"....
NATO members are not obligated to participate in "adventures) such as Iraq. They are obliged only to respond to attacks on each others territory, ships & aircraft within the NATO area, i.e. Europe, N. America, the Mediterranean, the Atlantic north of the Tropic of Cancer, & adjacent waters. Other actions are voluntary.

See - http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm

Theoretically, to invade NZ or Ireland, enemy would have to mount a Falklands War-scale ops or bigger. Not so with Sweden or Austria....
Unless invading from Norway or northern Finland, an invasion of Sweden would have to be amphibious, & against a larger (even now) & far better-equipped air force & much larger & more heavily-armed ground forces than in the Falklands, New Zealand or Ireland. But amphibious over a much shorter range.
 

Manfred2

New Member
Unless Ireland thinks they can get by being dependant on another nation in the event of war, they need to build an infrastructure capable of supporting a modern Army.
This takes years.

They can stick to things with civilian uses, such as helecopters and missle technology, but if they want to remain independant, they need more than light infantry and armored cars.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Unless Ireland thinks they can get by being dependant on another nation in the event of war, they need to build an infrastructure capable of supporting a modern Army.
This takes years.

They can stick to things with civilian uses, such as helecopters and missle technology, but if they want to remain independant, they need more than light infantry and armored cars.
Ireland has been independent for 85 years so far without armed forces capable of repelling an invasion, or even slowing one down much. It's blessed with a geographical position which means it can only be invaded by first defeating the UK, & is safe from an invasion by the UK because it's unthinkable for us to do it. I see no prospect of this changing.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
...what do you think Ireland would need in its military arsenal to be independent in a time of war?
What kind of war? Is Ireland the victim or perpertrator?

Who is the enemy? What will be Ireland/enemy's objectives?

Once you know that, you can answer the question yourself.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Unless Ireland thinks they can get by being dependant on another nation in the event of war,
Again, please paint this war scenario. When you have one, it'll be very clear if Ireland is doing OK or needs to depend on another nation.

...they need to build an infrastructure capable of supporting a modern Army. This takes years.
Perhaps this is exactly what they have - a infrastructure that can support this gradual or rapid exapansion.

They can stick to things with civilian uses, such as helecopters and missle technology, but if they want to remain independant, they need more than light infantry and armored cars.
What do you think they need, and why?
 

Tracer

New Member
Is Ireland likely to be invaded in lets say the next 40 years? Very unlikely. What about Britain, France, Spain? Just as unlikely. So why do those countries have large militaries? Yes, they have NATO commitments but they also take a view that whatever about other countries they are aligned with they need to look after their own affairs. Ireland should be no different in that.

Having the ability to protect your skies from possible terrorist attack should be accepted as a necessity for any modern European country. I won't get into Irish membership of NATO but supporting UN missions is seen as an integral part of our identity just as supporting NATO is in other countries. As such, an increase in defence spending would also be justified.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Is Ireland likely to be invaded in lets say the next 40 years? Very unlikely. What about Britain, France, Spain? Just as unlikely. So why do those countries have large militaries?
Ireland is a small country with a small population, and a small GDP to match!!

The end of the Cold War also saw immediate downsize of at least one European army - the Germans. Who's next?

And with the Cold War over, it's hard to justify using taxpayers money on big ticket military items. Why duplicate Britain's role unless there is cash to spare or a threat clear and present?

Still, you have to paint a credible picture why Ireland should beef up its military. I'm just playing devil's advocate as this is probably what the politicians or soldiers have to do to justify more military spending to the Irish public.

Keeping the skies clear of terrorist cannot justify multi-million dollar fighter air force. Ground based air defense would suffice.

It's not really wrong with Ireland depending on Britain to provide the air cover. Oz and NZ seem very comfortable with that arrangement.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Ireland is a small country with a small population, and a small GDP to match!!

The end of the Cold War also saw immediate downsize of at least one European army - the Germans. Who's next?

And with the Cold War over, it's hard to justify using taxpayers money on big ticket military items. Why duplicate Britain's role unless there is cash to spare or a threat clear and present?

Still, you have to paint a credible picture why Ireland should beef up its military. I'm just playing devil's advocate as this is probably what the politicians or soldiers have to do to justify more military spending to the Irish public.

Keeping the skies clear of terrorist cannot justify multi-million dollar fighter air force. Ground based air defense would suffice.

It's not really wrong with Ireland depending on Britain to provide the air cover. Oz and NZ seem very comfortable with that arrangement.
You said it - why don't the Irish Defence Force - serve with the British Army? The much-funded, Steyr-AUG armed IDF; let them prove their worth...
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Just wondering what impression members of other armies have of the Irish DF.
I'll get another bollocking on here for saying this, yet I am beyond care.

I'll take Yanks, Aussies and Irish before the rest of our "trusted" allies any day. Short memories.
 

Manfred2

New Member
What I was trying to say is that the future is uncertain.

Only 4 million? THat is smaller than I thought. Maybe My thoughts were irrelevant after all.

The thing is, Ireland may be faced with a situation away from it's own shores that none of its allies are wiling or able to help with, 10 or 20 years from now. Now that their economy is on the upswing and industry is being established in a big way, the Government might want to nudge some of that shiney new infrastructure in a direction that might be helpful for Defense somewhere down the road.

Clear enough?
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Ireland, like the rest of mainland Britain, is dependent upon maritime trade. Therefore I would focus financial resources on building a limited green-water capability, possibly investing in 3 x multi-purpose frigates for patrol, AAW, ASW and mine-sweeping duties. They can then step-up and take part in blue-water operations along side other European Navies for humanitarian work or sea-lane security missions.

One squadron of the Rangers can be re-rolled for maritime CT, along the same lines as the SBS / SEAL teams for conducting maritime underways, alongsides and sub-surface O2 work.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
What I was trying to say is that the future is uncertain.

Only 4 million? THat is smaller than I thought. Maybe My thoughts were irrelevant after all.

The thing is, Ireland may be faced with a situation away from it's own shores that none of its allies are wiling or able to help with, 10 or 20 years from now. Now that their economy is on the upswing and industry is being established in a big way, the Government might want to nudge some of that shiney new infrastructure in a direction that might be helpful for Defense somewhere down the road.

Clear enough?
What might happen "away from it's own shores" that Ireland would need to get involved in? And even more, that Irelands allies (what allies? Ireland is officially neutral, and has been since independence - but let us assume you mean other EU countries) might be unwilling or unable to help with? Anything that affected Ireland would be almost certain to affect the UK, & probably other EU countries.

You appear to be discussing this issue in general terms, without taking into account Irelands specific geographical, political, historical, or economic circumstances. I don't see the usefulness of that. You need to be more specific: much more specific.
 

jetjock

New Member
Just a clarification folks. Ireland is not "officially neutral". It is a common misconception. Our "neutrality" is not constitutional, like for example Switzerland. Our foreign policy is more akin to "selective alignment" , which in the most case is non-alignment.

For example during WWII, or the "Emergency" as it was known here, crashed Allied aircraft when flyable and indeed airmen, were hurriedly returned across the border. This was not the case with axis aircraft and their crew were interned at the Curragh army base for the duration of the war. Weather reports from Ireland were central to the D-Day landings and US and RAF aircraft based in Northern Ireland
were given overflight privileges on their way out of Northern Ireland on U-Boat patrols over the North Atlantic.

In the course of the war an estimated 70,000 citizens of "neutral Ireland" served as volunteers in the British Armed Forces. When Belfast was bombed, Fire tenders from south of the border were sent to assist.USAAF aircraft en-route to North Africa refueled at Shannon Airport, flying boats at nearby Foynes. A total of 1,400 aircraft and 15,000 passengers passed through Foynes airport during the war years.When the Irish aircraft sighted any German ships, planes or submarines, they reported back to base by radio knowing that the messages were being picked up by the British authorities.

More recently, a very significant of number US troop flights en-route to both Iraq and Afghanistan and indeed on the way back, have refueled and continue to do so at Shannon airport. You cannot pass through Shannon airport these days without encountering US troops on a refueling stop. There is no neutral nation on earth that would allow this.

Current foreign military deployments are subject to what is known as the "triple lock system".
1. The mission must be approved by a UN Security Council Resolution.
2. The mission must be approved by the Irish Government.
3. The mission must be approved by Dail Eireann(The Irish Parliament).

The first Irish overseas deployment was the UN mission to Congo in 1960- A mission that led to the deaths of 26 Irish soldiers. Notable battles include the Siege of Jadotville, where a company sized element of Irish troops held off a much larger force of Katangese. With resupply forces ( Swedish, Irish and Gurhkas) failing to break through, the contingent withstood attack from ground and air, and inflicting hundreds of casulties themselves,they finally ran out of ammunition they were forced to surrender. The famous line radioed back to HQ was poignant and typically Irish :"We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"

Other engagements involving the Irish Army since then include the Battle of At Tiri in 1980, involving both Irish and other UN elements in a firefight with the Israeli supported South Lebannon Army(SLA), where an AML 90 was used to put an SLA halftrack/HMG out of action.

In 2004 Irish Army Rangers in Gbapa, Nimba county, Liberia rescued villagers from Government of Liberia forces following aerial insertion involving Ukranian helicopters.

The Irish contingent in Kosovo is under Nato command.

The imminent deployment to Chad is the first EU led mission that Ireland has contributed to and after France, Ireland has the largest number of troops on the mission.

So folks, "oficially neutral" no, "selectively alligned"-yes.


Paragraph 3: Wikipedia
 
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merocaine

New Member
When your going to raid wikipedia please credit it.....

There a good book called the "Seige of Jadotsville" by Declan Power which goes in to some of the backround of the Congo conflict as well as the Irish UN involvement.
 

jetjock

New Member
No probs, paragraph 3(some of it) = courtesy of the good people at wiki. As is the Jadotville quote as I could not remember it exactly.

Hardly requires the use of the term "raid"??

If I was to include the At Tiri quote "I'm finished firing, and he's finished" should I credit the AML commander?

The rest of the info is pretty well known.

If you are going to use the ill informed phrase "oficially neutral" as per post #15, suggest you research the matter a bit.

There is no legislational or constitutional basis to it.
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moved Irish Defence Force discussion thread from Land Forces/Army category to General Military Defence category due to coverage of maritime and aviation issues as well as the army.
-Preceptor
 

mutts

New Member
We've a small but well-equipped army. I'm proud of the fact that we are neutral.

Were fudged though if we are ever invaded! It's very bad in comparison to other armies. Only a few thousand soldiers and few (barely sufficient) tanks, planes, etc.
We are not neutral, that word appears nowhere in the constitution.


Hi first post gf0012-aust showed me the place
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
We are not neutral, that word appears nowhere in the constitution.


Hi first post gf0012-aust showed me the place
I am not so sure I would agree about Ireland's neutral status. There might be no specific requirement under Irish law to be neutral, but that does not mean Ireland is not neutral. Similarly, I do not this neutral status requires a specific declaration to that effect. If there is such a requirement by international treaty, could someone please point it out.

AFAIK, Ireland is not currently in a military alliance with any other nation/state. Therefore, in the event of war breaking out, unless a participant nation either chose to attack Ireland, or vis versa, Ireland would be neutral. As a matter of policy, successive Irish governments have chosen not to actively participate in conflicts (WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc) nor side with participants in inactive conflicts (a la the Cold War).

By remaining apart from the above, Ireland has been de facto, if not de jure, neutral.

-Cheers
 
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