Irish Defence Forces

[mutts]

Ireland is a small country with a small population, and a small GDP to match!!

The end of the Cold War also saw immediate downsize of at least one European army - the Germans. Who's next?

And with the Cold War over, it's hard to justify using taxpayers money on big ticket military items. Why duplicate Britain's role unless there is cash to spare or a threat clear and present?

Still, you have to paint a credible picture why Ireland should beef up its military. I'm just playing devil's advocate as this is probably what the politicians or soldiers have to do to justify more military spending to the Irish public.

Keeping the skies clear of terrorist cannot justify multi-million dollar fighter air force. Ground based air defense would suffice.

It's not really wrong with Ireland depending on Britain to provide the air cover. Oz and NZ seem very comfortable with that arrangement.

We have a GDP at last estimate slightly bigger then Singapores, something around the 175-180 $ Billion mark, but I'm not an economist so that's a mute point.


why would we need to beeff, up well look at the World, it's not exactly a pleasent place and we should be prepared for what it will become, , we should have something of an indepentent airlift/sea lift capability, we have large contingent's of on the ground around the World, including one going into Chad, and it would be nice if we could supply/extract if needed those GF at any time, without depending on others who have other priorities, we also have the largest sea area of any EU nation now, our territory was recently extended out to the continental shelf, to give us access to the mineral/oil/gas deposits there, it's a vast vast area to protect, something like the equivelent of Australia controlling a huge chunk of the Pacific, ...it's a little bit for large for what we have right now

 

[mutts]

One squadron of the Rangers can be re-rolled for maritime CT, along the same lines as the SBS / SEAL teams for conducting maritime underways, alongsides and sub-surface O2 work.

They already carry out the MCT role, as well as NSW mission set's, the term "Ranger" does not donate the limit of what they do.

 

[mutts]

I am not so sure I would agree about Ireland's neutral status. There might be no specific requirement under Irish law to be neutral, but that does not mean Ireland is not neutral. Similarly, I do not this neutral status requires a specific declaration to that effect. If there is such a requirement by international treaty, could someone please point it out.

AFAIK, Ireland is not currently in a military alliance with any other nation/state. Therefore, in the event of war breaking out, unless a participant nation either chose to attack Ireland, or vis versa, Ireland would be neutral. As a matter of policy, successive Irish governments have chosen not to actively participate in conflicts (WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc) nor side with participants in inactive conflicts (a la the Cold War).

By remaining apart from the above, Ireland has been de facto, if not de jure, neutral.

-Cheers

We were on the allies side of WWII, despite public apparences, we returned allied pilot's, while keeping Germans, we supplied intelligence on German movements to the Allies, we allowed Allied Maritime patrols to cross our territory ect ect, we we're "Neutral" because frankly we were in no condition to fight,
ditto with the Cold war, we had to walk a tight line then, there were quite a few people who probably would have liked to see the UK go down, but then the IRA in it's various incarnations started to recieve help from the USSR/WARPAC nations/various Arab countries and terrorist groups supported by Moscow, so that was that, The IRA hates the Irish DF and GS just as much as the British, they are considered traitors by the IRA...and we know the punishment for that


anyway, past the history lesson, our future lies with the EU, so we will as we are now in Chad, start taking more an more action as required, the DF are an increasingly better equipped force, a long way from the nonesense all the way up to the 90's...wow that was a lot of typing for me.

 

[Chino]

We have a GDP at last estimate slightly bigger then Singapores, something around the 175-180 $ Billion mark, but I'm not an economist so that's a mute point.


why would we need to beeff, up well look at the World, it's not exactly a pleasent place and we should be prepared for what it will become, , we should have something of an indepentent airlift/sea lift capability, we have large contingent's of on the ground around the World, including one going into Chad, and it would be nice if we could supply/extract if needed those GF at any time, without depending on others who have other priorities, we also have the largest sea area of any EU nation now, our territory was recently extended out to the continental shelf, to give us access to the mineral/oil/gas deposits there, it's a vast vast area to protect, something like the equivelent of Australia controlling a huge chunk of the Pacific, ...it's a little bit for large for what we have right now

We built our defence forces to meet a very real threat environment.

We are surrounded on nearly all sides by huge Islamic countries, with Malaysia being within artillery range linked by 2 causeways where MBTs can be driven across. The narrow straits that separates us and Malaysia you can cross with small motorised boats - which was what the japs did in WW2.

Indonesia landed sabotuers onto our island as recently as the 1960s.

Though the situation is peaceful for the past 50 years, the region is still a volatile one with military coup one year ago in Thailand.

In South Thailand, less than 10 hours away by car, islamic insurgents are still lobbing off schoolteachers heads.

Ethnic cleansing in Indonesia as recent as a few years ago.

And fundamental Islamic activities in all countries. An entire army base armoury was stolen by such people in Malaysia a few years ago.

Heavily-armed pirates - probably off-duty army personnels - is one of the highest in the world in our nearby sea lanes.

Malaysia continues to be quite unfriendly and claiming a little isle owned by us by using their navy.

Malaysia and Indonesia navy ships rammed each other over someother island disputes a couple years back.

So, I ask again: what is the threat scenario for Ireland.

Ireland send troops to chad because you can afford the luxury. But Chad does not threaten Ireland.

Increasing the ability to patrol Ireland's air and sea boundaries is a good call. So what assets would be needed?

 

[mutts]

We built our defence forces to meet a very real threat environment.

We are surrounded on nearly all sides by huge Islamic countries, with Malaysia being within artillery range linked by 2 causeways where MBTs can be driven across. The narrow straits that separates us and Malaysia you can cross with small motorised boats - which was what the japs did in WW2.

Indonesia landed sabotuers onto our island as recently as the 1960s.

Though the situation is peaceful for the past 50 years, the region is still a volatile one with military coup one year ago in Thailand.

In South Thailand, less than 10 hours away by car, islamic insurgents are still lobbing off schoolteachers heads.

Ethnic cleansing in Indonesia as recent as a few years ago.

And fundamental Islamic activities in all countries. An entire army base armoury was stolen by such people in Malaysia a few years ago.

Heavily-armed pirates - probably off-duty army personnels - is one of the highest in the world in our nearby sea lanes.

Malaysia continues to be quite unfriendly and claiming a little isle owned by us by using their navy.

Malaysia and Indonesia navy ships rammed each other over someother island disputes a couple years back.

So, I ask again: what is the threat scenario for Ireland.

Ireland send troops to chad because you can afford the luxury. But Chad does not threaten Ireland.

Increasing the ability to patrol Ireland's air and sea boundaries is a good call. So what assets would be needed?

I actually have a lot of respect for the Singapore military, we worked with elements before, and I am actually quite envious of what you do with the smaller GDP, that was my point, I have often argued here that we should take a leaf from your book, do we need to be as heavily armed...certainly not as you say, your in a badder neighbourhood then we are, but when I see you (Singapore) with SSK's/MBT/AH&UH's/F-16's ect ect and a decent local defence industry, while we have none of that...none it's a bit of a kicker,
anyway, what threat's, well could I point to a specific localised threat?...no, but those are usually not the ones to be the bad ones, and as the boy scouts say "be prepared", I'd like it if we had the minimum, safeguard as any soverign Country should, we in all honesty don't even have that, we are leeching off the goodwill of other's, I'll give you a scenario if there was a similar threat to London of a 9/11 style attack, coming from our direction, we would have to ask the UK to deal with it over our country, and we only have to look back at how things can change,
a little over a decade ago we had a war that wouldn't have been out of place on the Eastern front in WWII in ferocity and barbarism, right in the heart of Europe...who can say what the next decade will bring, I'm not saying we need SSN's, MBT, ect, what we do need is an adequate AD jet, plenty of good second hand F-16's out there, but our gov say's "no need, everyone likes us", and no I'm not kidding,

we need airlifter's, both fixed and rotary, the basics of a decently capable military, what we do have thank God are well trained/capable people, a quality SOF unit and dedication, hopefully the re-equipment programme carries on like it has, next up is our LTAV/ and the new NS ship's, then we shall see where we go from there.

 

[swerve]

Mutts,

I agree, Ireland should at least have the ability to police its own airspace. It's not as if you can't afford it these days, & while I'm sure the RAF would oblige if requested, there would inevitably be a delay in response. As you say, plenty of second-hand F-16 around, or second-hand Gripen if you prefer, or even (if it's decided subsonic is adequate), spare L-159s from the Czechs. None would break the bank.

Are there any plans for transport aircraft? If not, I agree there should be. I expect the C-295 would do. Some logistical commonality with the CN-235 MPAs. More of those might be a good idea. The aircraft are probably fine for your EEZ patrol, but to me, two looks worryingly close to the number where a random minor accident could leave you with none, & that's a lot of water for the number of aircraft.

 

[merocaine]

No probs, paragraph 3(some of it) = courtesy of the good people at wiki. As is the Jadotville quote as I could not remember it exactly.

Hardly requires the use of the term "raid"??

If I was to include the At Tiri quote "I'm finished firing, and he's finished" should I credit the AML commander?

The rest of the info is pretty well known.

If you are going to use the ill informed phrase "oficially neutral" as per post #15, suggest you research the matter a bit.

There is no legislational or constitutional basis to it.

I'm sorry Jetjock, If we're not part of a military Alliance, have not being involved in any wars apart from UN sanctioned peace keeping missions, what are we?
If the government insists that the Lisbon/Nice treaty and the EU battlegroups will have no impact on official policy of neutrality then what are we?

The fact remains that since WW2 we've been officially neutral, that was our declared policy, nothing has changed to the contrary since.

No one made the claim that we were constitutionally neutral.

Unless we face attack from a belligerent State I can't that reality changing anytime soon.

 

[prolatarian]

Mutts,

I agree, Ireland should at least have the ability to police its own airspace. It's not as if you can't afford it these days, & while I'm sure the RAF would oblige if requested, there would inevitably be a delay in response. As you say, plenty of second-hand F-16 around, or second-hand Gripen if you prefer, or even (if it's decided subsonic is adequate), spare L-159s from the Czechs. None would break the bank.

Are there any plans for transport aircraft? If not, I agree there should be. I expect the C-295 would do. Some logistical commonality with the CN-235 MPAs. More of those might be a good idea. The aircraft are probably fine for your EEZ patrol, but to me, two looks worryingly close to the number where a random minor accident could leave you with none, & that's a lot of water for the number of aircraft.

The thing is there is no political will to significantally increase defence spending here as very few people care about the army.
We can aford it but the Dpt of finance feels that if they dont need it then they wont pay for it.Bearing in mind that back during WWII the money to build a somewhat credibal force was relaced only after much draging of heels and that was when the countery was under very real threat of invasion by both sides.

 

[Sea Toby]

I understand Ireland is small. Small in land mass and small in population. Much of its equipment is bought from outside the country, there isn't much defense industry at all. I am not even sure your uniforms are made in Ireland.

However, the old sea lanes threat to Europe and Ireland still exists. In today's world, with ever increasing international trade, the sea lane threat is as large as ever.

It would be nice if Ireland had a few frigates. It does appear in the near future Ireland will acquire a couple of frigate sized vessels, although configured more for as a sea lift/patrol asset than as an anti-submarine asset. Unfortunately, there is still no consideration to acquire ASW helicopters. I think Ireland could do much better against this threat.

Much like New Zealand, an air combat force of fighters is very expensive for a small nation with no air threat that wouldn't be countered by NATO. But a few C-130s or equivalents could transport and support whatever army units deployed abroad. A few P-3 Orions could help reduce your need for 8 ocean patrol ships.

I look at what New Zealand is capable of and think Ireland has the population and budget to match its capabilites. I think a sea lift ship, a small tanker, a few frigates, and a diving support tender would broaden its naval capabilies. I think Ireland's naval and air capabilites need to be a bit refocused.

The Irish army is right on, no need for anything much more than motorized infantry with artillery support. The basic need is to fill a company sized unit for UN peace keeping or disaster relief operations abroad, not to mention within Ireland.

In summary, a more balanced navy with more ASW along with more sea lift and support capabilities, a refocused air force with a few transports and ASW patrol aircrafts, and keeping an army usable for UN type operations. Yes, this may costs a bit more, but would provide self sufficiency with UN operations abroad. Frankly, many nations should consider the same self sufficiency, as many are expecting larger nations to provide too much assistance.

 

[prolatarian]

So what do ye think of the up comeing Chad mission.
What do you think of the ARW.They will be our entery force

 

[BryanK]

Question

I am uncertain whether to post this or not, but it seems relevant to the thread. I am conducting research for a member of a different forum (professionalsoldiers.com), and all queries on internet search engines have failed. The question was, is there a blank firing attachment for the .308 caliber Bren LMG? I found on tripatlas.com that the weapon is still used by the Irish Defence Forces. Does anyone know of such an attachment? or has it not been created for this particular system? Thank you for hearing me out. If this reply is irrelevant, please delete. Out here.

 

[Sea Toby]

I personally don't have problems hiring flag of convenience ships, such as the MV Zeran, to transport your equipment to Cameroon, and on to Chad. But I do mind when the Irish PM speaks about this issue on March 5 in the Irish parliament about civilian hires of FOCs, and then less than three weeks later hires one for the government. The man as they say in Texas, can talk the talk, but doesn't walk the walk.

You are either for or against the use of FOCs. There is no middle ground.

 

[swerve]

I understand Ireland is small. Small in land mass and small in population. Much of its equipment is bought from outside the country, there isn't much defense industry at all. I am not even sure your uniforms are made in Ireland.

However, the old sea lanes threat to Europe and Ireland still exists. In today's world, with ever increasing international trade, the sea lane threat is as large as ever.

It would be nice if Ireland had a few frigates. It does appear in the near future Ireland will acquire a couple of frigate sized vessels, although configured more for as a sea lift/patrol asset than as an anti-submarine asset. Unfortunately, there is still no consideration to acquire ASW helicopters. I think Ireland could do much better against this threat.

Much like New Zealand, an air combat force of fighters is very expensive for a small nation with no air threat that wouldn't be countered by NATO. But a few C-130s or equivalents could transport and support whatever army units deployed abroad. A few P-3 Orions could help reduce your need for 8 ocean patrol ships.

I look at what New Zealand is capable of and think Ireland has the population and budget to match its capabilites. I think a sea lift ship, a small tanker, a few frigates, and a diving support tender would broaden its naval capabilies. I think Ireland's naval and air capabilites need to be a bit refocused.

The Irish army is right on, no need for anything much more than motorized infantry with artillery support. The basic need is to fill a company sized unit for UN peace keeping or disaster relief operations abroad, not to mention within Ireland.

In summary, a more balanced navy with more ASW along with more sea lift and support capabilities, a refocused air force with a few transports and ASW patrol aircrafts, and keeping an army usable for UN type operations. Yes, this may costs a bit more, but would provide self sufficiency with UN operations abroad. Frankly, many nations should consider the same self sufficiency, as many are expecting larger nations to provide too much assistance.

In the case of Ireland, I think it's not so much "expecting ... assistance", as a rational calculation that there is no separate threat to Irish sea traffic, i.e. that nobody will bother trying to disrupt Irish, and only Irish, trade, and the UK (& since it was formed, NATO), will act to deal with any general threat. Ireland doesn't expect the UK to defend Irish trade, any more than it expects the UK to defend Ireland. Ireland expects the UK to defend itself, and that British self-defence will prevent a threat to Ireland. Unless it fails, of course, in which case Ireland will be in trouble.

Irish ASW forces would be purely decorative on their own. They could only function effectively as part of a joint force with the RN, & there are still historical resentments militating against that.

 

[Cadredave]

I am uncertain whether to post this or not, but it seems relevant to the thread. I am conducting research for a member of a different forum (professionalsoldiers.com), and all queries on internet search engines have failed. The question was, is there a blank firing attachment for the .308 caliber Bren LMG? I found on tripatlas.com that the weapon is still used by the Irish Defence Forces. Does anyone know of such an attachment? or has it not been created for this particular system? Thank you for hearing me out. If this reply is irrelevant, please delete. Out here.

When I first joined the NZ Army in the late eighties we still had the 7.62mm Bren LMG our Army did not use a blank firing attachment but a blank firing barrel I am sure this is what the Irish Defence Force use as well. Mate you dont have to worry about the opinions about your soldiers they were the most professional well trained crew I and many Kiwis served with during East Timor they fitted in well when attached to our NZBATTs.

 

[Sea Toby]

In the case of Ireland, I think it's not so much "expecting ... assistance", as a rational calculation that there is no separate threat to Irish sea traffic, i.e. that nobody will bother trying to disrupt Irish, and only Irish, trade, and the UK (& since it was formed, NATO), will act to deal with any general threat. Ireland doesn't expect the UK to defend Irish trade, any more than it expects the UK to defend Ireland. Ireland expects the UK to defend itself, and that British self-defence will prevent a threat to Ireland. Unless it fails, of course, in which case Ireland will be in trouble.

Irish ASW forces would be purely decorative on their own. They could only function effectively as part of a joint force with the RN, & there are still historical resentments militating against that.

So your economy much like the rest of the world will collapse whenever Iran decides to block the Straits of Homuz? No oil, no machines.

As I said before, Ireland's Defense Forces have a good reputation. However, I do have problems with the Irish political basis of its forces. From the views of an outsider, its time for Ireland to join NATO. Who cares a flip about the British.

In the days of Peak Oil, its time Ireland cared just a tad about its oil supplies. Or have a all out program to reduce its dependency of oil. And that isn't just for Ireland, add every country to the list.

Look at your navy. Its a great coast guard. Unfortunately, in my opinion it should have more focus on ocean escorting, mine hunting, and troop transporting along with their equipment and supplies.

I do not see a need for a fighter force for your air force, but you could use a few transport planes for troop transporting along with their equipment and supplies.

Learn the lessons of the Australians, who have developed a nice naval force of frigates and submarines. When East Timor declared independence from Indonesia, Australia found it very difficult to influence events in their own backyard, East Timor being a hundred miles off its northern coast.

Despite Qantas, its fleet of Hercules transports, they were at their arms reach to move its troops, equipment, and supplies into East Timor at the level they needed to sustain operations. They did get there, but not as quickly as they would have liked.

Its not surprising that they have decided to build two new LHDs, to move 1,000 troops each.

 

[swerve]

So your economy much like the rest of the world will collapse whenever Iran decides to block the Straits of Homuz? No oil, no machines.

As I said before, Ireland's Defense Forces have a good reputation. However, I do have problems with the Irish political basis of its forces. From the views of an outsider, its time for Ireland to join NATO. Who cares a flip about the British.

In the days of Peak Oil, its time Ireland cared just a tad about its oil supplies. Or have a all out program to reduce its dependency of oil. And that isn't just for Ireland, add every country to the list.

Look at your navy. Its a great coast guard. Unfortunately, in my opinion it should have more focus on ocean escorting, mine hunting, and troop transporting along with their equipment and supplies.

I do not see a need for a fighter force for your air force, but you could use a few transport planes for troop transporting along with their equipment and supplies.

Learn the lessons of the Australians, ....

Not my economy, not my navy, not my air force. I'm English.

As for who cares about the British - well, the Irish do, & that's the point.

BTW, Australia has 5 times the population & many times the area of Ireland, & a totally different geopolitical situation. I don't think comparing them is useful. Ireland has only one real neighbour, & that's us. Anyone else has to go through us to get at Ireland. Australia isn't in that situation. Irelands situation is closer to, though not quite the same as, New Zealands, with Australia being more equivalent to the UK.

BTW, the UK was a net exporter of oil from about 1980 until 2006.

 

[Sea Toby]

Well it gets my goat that Ireland is finally to the point of building a ship the size of a frigate, we will know by the end of the year. Unfortuantely, they are considering a ship which they call the extended patrol vessel, epv to join two new ships they call an ocean patrol vessel, opv. With the epv they still want a patrol ship first, not a sea lift ship. This implies a continued resistance of their government to foreign adventures, even though they are being shipped to Chad.

While the Swedes are for the first time looking at buying a sea lift ship of some kind, being in the same position of sending troops to Chad. The Swedes have a small populated nation too, although not as small as Ireland.

For example, the small nation of New Zealand, which has been noted above, bought a militarized civilian ferry, a multi-role vessel for sea lift purposes. Ireland could do the same, and I mean a useful sea lift of 40 or more vehicles of a mototized company group and a handful of helicopters, not 20 vehicles or one helicopter, if that.

I realize a sea lift ship doesn't need to be expensive. By a long shot, New Zealand was able to buy not only a MRV, but two OPVs and four IPVs for the price of a general purpose frigate.

I think the Irish Naval Service will be better off with more of a littoral multi-purpose navy than what it has, a coast guard. If you are going to buy a ship for sea lift, at least lift something worthwhile, a company group, a battalion, a brigade.

Yes, its likely everyone has to go through the United Kingdom or France to get to Ireland, but how does Ireland get to where their troops are needed for UN peacekeeping and/or disaster relief operations? The point I was attempting to make with the Australians is they didn't like how long an effort and hard the task was for them to reach East Timor.

Surely, at least Ireland could purchase something similar to what they hired, the MV Zeran. It shouldn't be too difficult to install a chain gun and RHIBs to her and use her for fishery protection patrols.

 

[kato]

[...] even though they are being shipped to Chad.
[...] Swedes [...] being in the same position of sending troops to Chad.

Chad is landlocked by the way. Sealifting anything into the next friendly nation around there means you'd have to go around West Africa to the Gulf of Guinea, and from there it'd be a ride through the not-so-friendly regions of Northern Nigeria.
Hence why all troops that would be sent to Chad arrive by air anyway. And even if you'd sent anything via Nigeria (or another allied country), there's plenty of civilian charter options.

Not that Ireland couldn't use a sealift ship. However, you have to see some difference to New Zealand too - NZ is also doing some small operations with/in a number of South Pacific nations occasionally, for which they need a sealift ship, and for which the design they chose is useful as a logistics vessel as well. Ireland has no operations like that.

 

[swerve]

...

Not that Ireland couldn't use a sealift ship. However, you have to see some difference to New Zealand too - NZ is also doing some small operations with/in a number of South Pacific nations occasionally, for which they need a sealift ship, and for which the design they chose is useful as a logistics vessel as well. Ireland has no operations like that.

Exactly. Ireland only participates, as a matter of policy, in multinational, UN-authorised military operations - but an awful lot of them - & disaster relief. Sea Toby could do with checking on Irelands history in this respect. Since June 1958, I think there have always been Irish troops deployed somewhere on UN duties, & except for 1958-60, & 1974-78, when they were only unarmed observers, always armed. Not really "resistance ... to foreign adventure", just selectivity about which foreign adventures.

A few of their deployments
Lebanon 1958 onwards, 1978- onwards
Sinai 1958-
Congo 1960-64 (first deaths)
Cyprus 1964-
Central America 1989-94
Somalia 1993-
Yugoslavia (UNPROFOR)
East Timor 1999

Dedicated naval sealift ships would have been pretty useless for most of these, & a terrible waste of money for the rest, because deployments are mostly small, are erratic, overlap, are widely dispersed, and are light forces only. Chartering commercial sealift when required has always sufficed, though sometimes been a little difficult to arrange & expensive. A dual-role ship (better, two, but they won't spend enough) makes perfect sense in this context.

And in any case, there is something far, far more important, something Ireland uses much more often than sealift & relies entirely on commercial charter for: air transport. Ireland could do with a couple of smallish military freighters, to airlift kit & troops to hot places. Can be small, maybe C-295 or C-27J, because they're only ever light forces.

 

[Sea Toby]

Ireland had to hire a ship last year too, for operations in Liberia. So there have been two operations in two years. While I might agree the Zeran maybe too large, and they don't need to carry their personnel offshore, they do need a ship in my opinion that can sea lift their equipment and supplies. Currently their hired ship is of more use at power projection than the rest of their naval service.

I understand why their naval service is small, but in my mind its set up is too confining, patrol only. Having a bit more power projection in a ship of some kind, could be used at a moment's notice for their own natural disasters. And surely, there are enough natural disasters around in the world to keep one small ship busy.

And its not just Ireland. There are more European nations with the same inability, some much larger than Ireland. Frankly, I don't understand why they don't want any sealift capability. Their soldiers deserve something better than a rust bucket.