WW-II: Normandy landing

FutureTank

Banned Member
Without the second front it was hopeless.
Look Big-E. I'm sorry, but we are not on the same page. I am not saying this disrespectfully, and I don't wan to offend you, but the Second Front would have been very usefull in 42, and Italy was usefull in 1943 coming as it did smack in the middle of Kursk, but Normandy benefited more from "Bagration" then the other way around. North Africa had almost negligible effect on operations on the Eastern Front.

It was also the "doughboys" of WWI that saved France and again the Soviet Union from being the pawn of Germany.
I think perspective is what is called for, if only from the Australian perspective. The Anzac Corps that had been fighting from Gallipoli, broke the back of German defenses in one of the most decisive and brilliant combined arms operations of the war by one of the most brilliant commanders in the Allied armies.
Of all the American troops that made it to France, only four divisions actually fought in the front line over a period of last few months. The first use of American troops was under Australian command, and they were literally useless because they were completely dispersed! PLEASE do not take this as some sort of insult against American troops. This is the essence of a report made by Monash himself on performance of American troops because the Allies didn't know their quality and didn;t know how to use them since the US Army came to France underequipped and untrained. So much so that Monash had to give American officers a 3 hour briefing before the battle just to bring them up to speed on the Australian tactics that sought to achieve objectives without incurring large losses.
Afther this 'performance' there was a decision made to parcel US troops out to other contingents because they could not be put into line due to their lack of reliability. There followed a great degree of political wrangling to reverse this decision, and from that moment on there is a standing order that US troops never again fight under non-US command.

So here it is from Wikipedia which is sufficient for this thread:
The Battle of the Hindenburg Line, which began September 18, 1918, was a key turning point in the Hundred Days Offensive that eventually led to the end of World War I.

Australian general John Monash launched the earliest attack of the battle on September 18th. At 5:20 AM, the Australian Corps, along with artillery support and only 8 tanks (along with some dummy tanks) broke through some German positions. Roughly 1,000 Australians were wounded or killed in this assault, but they had taken 4,300 Germans prisoner by the end of the day.

The British arrived at the line next, the British First Army attacking the Wotan-Stellung section of the wall early in the battle followed by Douglas Haig's forces against the Siegfried-Stellung. The British Third, Fourth, and Fifth along with the French First Army and the American Expeditionary Force all joined over the course of the battle.

On September 27 the US 27th and 30th Divisions launched the initial attack, with the Australian 3rd and 5th Divisions intended to "leapfrog" through the American forces. Although the Americans were eager for the fight they were inexperienced and did not clear German positions as effectively as they might have. This forced advancing Australians to fight again for the ground the Americans had just taken. Australians took the village of Montbrehain on October 5 as their final action in the battle. Their forces had been fighting on the front lines since March 27 and 27,000 men had been killed or wounded just since the Battle of Amiens in early August. Although the Australians withdrew, the line was completely cleared by October 10.

So far as Soviet union is concerned, what really helped was Lend Lease, and trucks in particular, as well as radios and copper wire. With destruction of the Army group Mitte, and breaching of the Carpathian mountains the war was almost over in the East. Red Airforce had air superiority, and absolute superiority in firepower. Finland was out, and Roumania would soon follow.

I'm not unappreciative of the American contribution in either war, their effort or their fighting spirit. However I do believe in perspective. I think America has had some outstanding commanders, but comparatively less expereinced then other Allied or Axis commanders in either war. Expereince takes time, and the US did not have as much time in combat as others. Its just a fact of history.
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It was also the "doughboys" of WWI that saved France and again the Soviet Union from being the pawn of Germany.
Rubbish. American forces arrived in France too late to alter the course of the war. WWI in the West was won by the French and British. Specifically, France took the heavier burden and the British led the attack which defeated the German Army in the field.

The real American contribution to WWI was in the power they represented - millions of fresh troops - which helped convince Germany that further resistance was hopeless. But even that was a secondary consideration compared to German battlefield losses and the British naval blockade.

Initial American actions on the Western Front were debacles, at a stage where the British and French were capable of launching fairly successful attacks. The Americans basically had to learn all the lessons the British and French had been learning for four years, and they initially refused to take advice. They paid for it heavily in casualties.

A brief breakdown of battle deaths among the Allied powers on the Western Front and related theatres, from Wiki:

Australia 60,000
Canada 67,000
India 43,000
New Zealand 18,000
South Africa 9,000
Newfoundland 1,000
UK 703,000
Total British Empire: 901,000

France 1,376,000

Portugal 7,000
Belgium 14,000

Total non-US battle deaths: 2,298,000

Total US battle deaths: 126,000

% US deaths on the Western Front: 5.5%

That doesn't even count the Eastern front, or the Italians, which would add another 2 million Allied death and a similar number of Central Powers. The US contribution, in terms of actual fighting, was a mere pinprick. For you to say, in effect, that the US won WWI is a gross distortion of the truth, and I question your impartiality. Either that, or you need to do some serious research.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think perspective is what is called for, if only from the Australian perspective. The Anzac Corps that had been fighting from Gallipoli, broke the back of German defenses in one of the most decisive and brilliant combined arms operations of the war by one of the most brilliant commanders in the Allied armies.

Of all the American troops that made it to France, only four divisions actually fought in the front line over a period of last few months. The first use of American troops was under Australian command, and they were literally useless because they were completely dispersed! PLEASE do not take this as some sort of insult against American troops. This is the essence of a report made by Monash himself on performance of American troops because the Allies didn't know their quality and didn;t know how to use them since the US Army came to France underequipped and untrained. So much so that Monash had to give American officers a 3 hour briefing before the battle just to bring them up to speed on the Australian tactics that sought to achieve objectives without incurring large losses.

Afther this 'performance' there was a decision made to parcel US troops out to other contingents because they could not be put into line due to their lack of reliability. There followed a great degree of political wrangling to reverse this decision, and from that moment on there is a standing order that US troops never again fight under non-US command.

It needs to be poiinted out that the doughboys came in absolutely green, and they were shackled with Pershing who also seemed to think that sheer brute force and enthusiasm would change the outcome.

Monash was decidedly concerned about US troop quality (ie lack of experience) and insisted through Plummer and Haig that they be trained or put under an experienced commander for opening events. Pershing actually tried to force everyones hand but was eventually told that either the US went under Monashes command - or not enter the main event at all.

Monash then went through a rigorous process of training the american forces by both buddying up and simulating likely offensive moves.

That is no reflection on the calibre of US forces, after all, they were green and amongst some of the most battle hardened of all allied forces. As a side note, the australian troops had been at it for so long it almost led to a mutiny later on - they were almost burnt out emotionally and physically.

Nobody should underestimate the french, they took the bulk of the heavy hitting and all credit should be accorded.

What the americans did was hilight that fresh troops and a basically unmolested logistics support train would make the germans and her allied forces see that they were on a rapidly declining foundation.

In very real terms - and with a complete absence of malice, the hard work had already been tipped and the US became the rather large feather that broke the camels back.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Nobody should underestimate the french, they took the bulk of the heavy hitting and all credit should be accorded.
Yes, but I felt it was more appropriate to compare like-sized forces, rather then French and US Armies.

Still, it is difficult to compare Dominion forces with that of the USA given the disparity in time these have been involved in operations by the time US troops arrived.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Total US battle deaths: 126,000

% US deaths on the Western Front: 5.5%

That doesn't even count the Eastern front, or the Italians, which would add another 2 million Allied death and a similar number of Central Powers. The US contribution, in terms of actual fighting, was a mere pinprick. For you to say, in effect, that the US won WWI is a gross distortion of the truth, and I question your impartiality. Either that, or you need to do some serious research.
Both you and Waylander admit the doughboys are what broke the camels back. If the US hadn't entered the war the fight would have kept on going. The British tanks, while innovative, were by FAR from effective. It would have been years of trench warfare until one side gave up. I didn't say the US did it's share of fighting but there is something you should realize from an American perspective. In that era the US were EXTREME isolationists. All they cared about was what happened 10 miles from their house. It wasn't until they turned on the radio from reports of Gallipoli that they realized the true cost of that war. The thousands of ANZACs being wasted to do the bidding of the Imperial whip infuriated many. With these detailed battle reports coming in American sentiment began to turn. With the resulting indiscriminate actions of the Kriegsmarine the rest is history. As Waylander said it is the "millions of fresh troops" that made the difference. Wether they actually fought is of little concern when it was what influenced the Chancellor to surrender.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Normandy (and Italy) alternative

It seems to me that US was always isolationist unless there was a real gain from their actions.

So far as US role on the Western Front in WW1 is concerned, the influx of US troops was negligible to Germans. A year prior Russia left the war and vast numbers of experienced troops became available. The German offensive which caught British by surprise, and Australians were thrown in to plug, was the last effort for very different reason - they had run out of ammunition.

The simple truth is that someone in the Administration realised that Allies are going to win, and that it would be useful to be on the winning side when bidding for reconstruction contracts. Actually something better happened when Germans asked for a loan.

Same thing pretty much happened in WW2. Although Japanese invaded China in 1933, and Germany's new NAZI government made no effort to hide their intentions towards either human rights or democracy after that year, US waited. Actually they didn't wait exactly, because the US companies continued to trade with German companies and German companies were allowed to buy into US companies.

Finally after December 7, 1941 US was forced into a war by denying Japan access to scrap metal (effectively imposing US limit over Japan's industrial capacity though that capacity was being used to build naval vessels).

Was US getting ready to enter the war against Germany in 1941 by making preparations since 1933, 1936, 1939? Nope, neither Hitler's coming to power, not his support for Franco in Spain or Italy in Africa, or annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia and invasion of Poland jolt US into frantic preparation to enter the war on Allied side. Only when Moscow, widely predicted to fall, didn't, do US really swung into action.

Not that once this action begun it was not appreciated. However when Stalin asked for a Second Front, he almost certainly didn't expect the route taken to be the longest available! Of all the ways to invade Europe, going through North Africa and Italy was surely the worst possible. Even Hannibal recognized this 2,000 years earlier.

Now when I had a chance to think, it seems that there was an alternative to Normandy.

In 1942 (particularly after Stalingrad) Rommel's Africa Corps was spent. It was not receiving replacements, equipment and most importantly fuel. It was never going to threaten Egypt again.
It seems to me that the Western Allies were quite able to convince neutral Portugal to join Allied cause in 1943, invade and depose Franco, and advance into France by the same route Wellington took in 1812. I am absolutely sure that crossing the Pyrenees laterally with support of Spanish Army (even if only a part) is far easier then crossing the Apennines longitudinally fighting the Italian Fascists.

Imagine the lives saved by not having to conduct multiple opposed amphibious assaults in Italy, and breaking through mountain passes and fortified lines. Imagine German efforts to stretch their supply lines to the Spanish border while preparing for Typhoon instead of an easy reach of Italy. Imagine having to send troops to defend Southern France while still expecting a possible invasion in the North.

Hmmm…who was that great strategist that chose Torch as American entry into the European Theatre?

So why was this strategy rejected?

Some background from http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp6.html
Prior to the outbreak of WWII, England was Portugal’s largest trading partner in 1938. Portugal had joined the British early in WWI and sent 50,000 troops to the front lines.

Portugal’s association with Nazi Germany emerged during the Spanish Civil War. During the conflict, the strong man dictator Dr. Antonio de Oliviera Salazar sided with Franco and Hitler. Salazar helped Germany smuggle arms to Franco’s forces and dispatched Portuguese volunteers to fight with Franco. In doing so, Salazar hoped to achieve his long-term goal of stabilization and development of the country's economy. By the end of 1938, Germany was Portugal’s second largest trading partner. Salazar did however, protest Hitler’s invasion of Catholic Poland.

Salazar’s choice to remain neutral during WWII had as much basis in geography as it did in any ideology. Portugal occupied a strategic position on the map of Europe in that it had many ports along its Atlantic coast that would be harder for Britain to blockade. However, Salazar’s main fear was an invasion of Portugal by the Nazi war machine. After the occupation of France, the Wehrmacht was less than 260 miles from Portugal's border. His other fear was that if Hitler and Franco would form an alliance placing Nazi troops at Portugal’s border. Dean Acheson, then Assistant Secretary of State, expressed the opinion that Salazar granted favors to Germany in the trade war after computing "the relative danger of German and allied military pressure on him."

Salazar promised both Britain and Germany open trade for Portugal's valuable domestic and colonial resources. By remaining neutral, Portugal’s economy benefited tremendously. Portugal’s balance of trade went from a $90 million deficit in 1939 to a $68 million surplus in 1942. Assets in private banks nearly doubled over the first four years of the war, while the assets of the Bank of Portugal more than tripled. Both the Nazis and Allies waged an economic war through threats and lucrative trade deals. However, Portugal couldn’t cut its ties with the Allies, as it was dependent upon the U.S. for imports of petroleum, coal, ammonium sulfate, and wheat. In October, Britain capitalized on its long-standing relationship with Portugal by inducing Portugal to accept sterling in payment for goods. At the time, Britain’s gold reserves were low, and Sweden and Switzerland were demanding gold for payment.

Portugal’s economic success hinged on its rich wolfram ore deposits. The Nazis were totally dependent on Portugal and Spain for its wolfram supplies. Wolfram or tungsten has a variety of uses including its use as the filament in light bulbs. However, it was of particular value in producing war munitions. Germany’s machining industry used tungsten carbide almost exclusively, whereas the U.S. was still largely using inferior molybdenum tipped tools, primarily because of the cartel agreement GE held with Krupp concerning carboloy or cemented tungsten carbide. Additionally, tungsten was useful in armor piercing munitions. [and also steel machining tools in armour manufacturing - FT]Britain and the U.S. agreed that Germany’s minimum requirements for wolfram were 3,500 tons per year.

Considering the quantity the Nazis required and the extraordinary means they went to insure supplies of the ore, the Allies correctly surmised that for the Nazis wolfram was a vital resource. It was equally important to the Allies, but the Allies were not solely dependent upon Portugal or Spain and could obtain wolfram from other sources. Thus, one of the allied goals was to deprive Nazi Germany of as much wolfram ore as possible. In this end, the Allies bought as much wolfram as possible from Portugal. The competition for the ore was intense and by 1943, to Portugal’s benefit, the price of ore had increased 775 percent over pre-war rates. Production also soared from 2,419 metric tons in 1938 to 6,500 tons in 1942.

To maintain its neutrality, Portugal set up a strict export quota system in 1942. The system allowed each side to export ore from their own mines and a fixed percentage of the output from independent mines. England owned the largest mine, while Germany owned two mid size concerns and several smaller mines. The output of Portugal's second largest mine was owned by France and the output was tied up in legation throughout 1941. In January 1942, Portugal concluded a secret trade pact with Germany. The pact allowed the Nazis export licenses for up to 2,800 tons of wolfram. In turn, Germany was to supply Portugal with coal, steel, and fertilizer, which Portugal needed and which the Allies could not supply. In 1943, the Allies tried to negotiate a new wolfram agreement. Portugal asked for price reductions in ammonium sulfate, petroleum products, and other materials from the Allies. The Allies refused any price reductions and Portugal refused to increase the Allies export licenses. At the same time, Portugal completed a new agreement with Nazi Germany.

Parallel with the wolfram negotiations were the negotiations to acquire air bases in the Azores islands. The islands would be able to provide a critical base for antisubmarine warfare, as the battle in the Atlantic was reaching a peak. The Allies had failed to take the Azores by force, fearing Germany would invade Portugal as a reprisal. On August 17, 1943, Britain concluded an agreement with Portugal to use the islands starting in October after invoking the old Anglo-Portuguese Alliance. In late 1943, Portugal interrupted the agreement as to include the U.S. air force as well.

By April 1944, the U.S. decided to use economic sanctions to induce Portugal to cut off the Nazi’s supply of wolfram. Portugal was dependent upon the U.S. for petroleum and other products. On June 5, 1944, the Allies pressed Portugal to cease wolfram shipments to Germany. The Germans immediately began to cloak their mining interests in Portugal by selling them and buying up other businesses. By June 1946, the Allies estimated that the Nazis had cloaked about $2 million dollars in hotels, cinemas, etc. At the same time a German U-boat seized a Portuguese vessel, increasing the anti-German sentiment inside Portugal. The U.S. also began negotiations to construct an air base in the Azores. Construction was delayed until and agreement was reached on a wide range of supplies and services. On November 28, 1944, the agreement was signed. Additionally, the U.S. agreed to Portuguese participation in the campaign to liberate Timor from the Japanese.
An even longer description can be seen here http://ideas.repec.org/p/rut/rutres/200008.html

In Bowen, Wayne H. Spain during World War II. Columbia, MO: University of Missouri Press, 2006 also provides interesting insight into why the strategy was not followed. However to support the strategy there is also much there:

the first chapter concludes by repeating that during much of 1940 both Franco and Hitler wanted Spain as an actively belligerent military ally of Germany, and such an alliance failed to materialize due to the Fuehrer's unwillingness to make serious promises to Madrid rather than the Caudillo's rejection of Berlin's offers.

With the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941, the strategic position of Spain transformed overnight. For one thing, it was no longer likely that the Germans would invade Spain, or pressure it to allow for an assault on Gibraltar, no matter how frustrated they were with Franco. For another, the Nazi return to anticommunism was tremendously popular. Spontaneous anticommunist demonstrations, encouraged by members of the regime, erupted throughout Spain at the news. For many Spaniards the invasion was more than just an extension of the existing conflict—it was a "war for the cause of Europe" and a "total European enterprise" against the "virus" of communism. While Falangists, Alfonsin monarchists, Carlists, Catholics, and those with business interests may have had major political differences, they shared in hatred for communism and anger at the Soviet Union for having assisted the Second Republic. Franco appears to have briefly considered declaring war, at the request of Germany, but Spain's economic dependence on Great Britain made this action unlikely. While Spain did not enter the war after the invasion of the Soviet Union, the Nazi betrayal of Stalin began the greatest period of open collaboration between Franco's Spain and Hitler's Germany, a collaboration that would cause serious damage to the Spanish economy as well as to Spain's international image and its practical interests.

To demonstrate its "moral belligerency," Spain recruited a division of volunteers—the Division Espanola de Voluntarios, or Blue Division—dispatched to the Russian Front to serve as a formation of the German Army. Bowen briefly outlines the service of the Blue Division, quickly noting that the British took considerable exception to such a violation of Spain's neutral status, to the extent that Churchill nearly ordered an invasion of the Canary Islands. Following American entry into the war, the Allies began a program of squeezing Spain with economic sanctions designed to prevent Franco from moving any closer to Hitler. In the wake of the Allied invasion of French North Africa in November 1942, the Spanish Army underwent mobilization, but at the same time Franco realized Spain's strategic position had been entirely transformed. At this point the Generalissimo began to succumb to Allied pressure, gradually limiting or ending various concessions previously offered to the Axis, such as refueling facilities for U-boats. (Bowen does not otherwise address the issue of U-boats and German supply ships in Spanish waters.) The fall of Mussolini in the summer of 1943 also gave Falangist leaders pause as they considered how rapidly their comradely regime had collapsed.

In October Franco announced that Spain was shifting its policy from non-belligerency to neutrality. A few weeks later the Blue Division was withdrawn from the Russian Front. In addition, Spanish workers were gradually recalled from Germany. By the time Allied ground troops in France reached the Spanish border, permanently isolating Spain from Germany, Madrid's realignment to strict neutrality was almost complete, and "...the Franco regime made every effort to get on the good side of the Allies." http://sonic.net/~bstone/archives/060813.shtml

It seems to me the way was more then open for the Allies to land unopposed in Portugal and march across Spain into France avoiding Italy and Normandy.
 
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Big-E

Banned Member
The simple truth is that someone in the Administration realised that Allies are going to win, and that it would be useful to be on the winning side when bidding for reconstruction contracts. Actually something better happened when Germans asked for a loan.
So we gave 126,000 lives for reconstruction contracts... that is very disrespectful to those who died for a noble cause.

Finally after December 7, 1941 US was forced into a war by denying Japan access to scrap metal (effectively imposing US limit over Japan's industrial capacity though that capacity was being used to build naval vessels).
So we went to war because we couldn't sell Japan scrap. What planet are you on? :alian2
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
So we gave 126,000 lives for reconstruction contracts... that is very disrespectful to those who died for a noble cause.
So we went to war because we couldn't sell Japan scrap. What planet are you on? :alian2
Big-E, do you think propaganda is unique to enemies of America?

Ok, let me spell it out for you.

Firstly the number killed in WW1 do not reflect either intensity of combat or patriotism of the troops, but only the industrialised killing power of WW1.

Prior to WW2:
Japan mimicked European powers.
To be an Empire it needed a Navy.
To build Navy industry needs steel.
Japan invades Korea, and then China, but still not enough resources are available.
Japan turns to US.
At first all is well.
However resources were still short, particularly oil, so the Japanese occupation of northern Indochina in 1940 brought with it an embargo on U.S. exports of iron and steel to scrap to Japan.

NOTE. German occupation of Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland did not bring such trade embargos.

Negotiatiations to remove embargo continue but are fruitless.
This culminates with Japanese attack on the US Pacific Fleet.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Big-E, do you think propaganda is unique to enemies of America?

Ok, let me spell it out for you.
Your propaganda sounds like something the enemies of America would say.

Let me spell it out for you...

Firstly the number killed in WW1 do not reflect either intensity of combat or patriotism of the troops, but only the industrialised killing power of WW1.
You said that America entered WWI because they wanted to be on the winning side so they could get reconstruction contracts. Now you even further tarnish the memory of those who served by trivializing their sacrifice by blaming industrialization for their deaths. Let me set the record straight... Lusitania... remember?

Prior to WW2:
Japan mimicked European powers.
To be an Empire it needed a Navy.
To build Navy industry needs steel.
Japan invades Korea, and then China, but still not enough resources are available.
Japan turns to US.
At first all is well.
However resources were still short, particularly oil, so the Japanese occupation of northern Indochina in 1940 brought with it an embargo on U.S. exports of iron and steel to scrap to Japan.

NOTE. German occupation of Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland did not bring such trade embargos.

Negotiatiations to remove embargo continue but are fruitless.
This culminates with Japanese attack on the US Pacific Fleet.
Japan didn't attack the US because they embargoed them, they attacked on a gamble that the carriers would be in port. They weren't negotiating, they were stalling for time to decieve their intentions. Who writes your history books? :drunk1
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Japan didn't attack the US because they embargoed them, they attacked on a gamble that the carriers would be in port. They weren't negotiating, they were stalling for time to decieve their intentions. Who writes your history books? :drunk1
The US embargo was a de facto ultimatum. Discontinue the war in China, or we [US] will shut down your war machine.

Japan made its own choice, securing the resources of SEA instead of using American. To do that, the Japanese needed to secure their LOCS, and that policy went through Pearl harbor.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
The US embargo was a de facto ultimatum. Discontinue the war in China, or we [US] will shut down your war machine.

Japan made its own choice, securing the resources of SEA instead of using American. To do that, the Japanese needed to secure their LOCS, and that policy went through Pearl harbor.
Japan had already secured a steel supply in Manchuria.

"In the period from 1932-1944 one of the largest iron and steel centers on the Asiatic continent came into being in Manchuria, comperable in size with the developments at Kuznetsk and in India... Manchuria... was to be developed as an extension of the homeland. Capital and effort were poured into the creation here of a mainland industrial base strong enough to support Japan's military ambitions on the continent. The larger part of the effort was devoted to the iron and steel industry... Japanese estimates... totaled two chief deposits of 4450 million metric tons of medium grade ore."

Rodgers, Allen. The Manchurian Iron and Steel Industry and Its Resource Base. Geographical Review, Vol. 38, No. 1 (Jan., 1948), pp. 48

Japan had MORE than enough ore reserves in Manchuria to meet any wartime demands that they might have. Taiwan, Korea, and China practically had NOTHING, Malay had a meager 75 million tons. They had been lacking in ways to smelt the medium grade ore to get a good purity. It was not the failure of Japanese industry that made Manchuria unable to supply enough quality steel, it was the poor smelting processes that they conducted their operations that provided such little quality steel from the massive amounts of ore available.

They didn't invade China for oil as no real sources had been found.

You can't blame the war on the US just because Japanese industry lacked the ability to make quality steel from medium quality ore. The Japanese lied to the US State Department so they could wipe out PACFLT. They were in no danger until they attacked.
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
Japan had already secured a steel supply in Manchuria.

"In the period from 1932-1944 one of the largest iron and steel centers on the Asiatic continent came into being in Manchuria, comperable in size with the developments at Kuznetsk and in India... Manchuria... was to be developed as an extension of the homeland. Capital and effort were poured into the creation here of a mainland industrial base strong enough to support Japan's military ambitions on the continent. The larger part of the effort was devoted to the iron and steel industry... Japanese estimates... totaled two chief deposits of 4450 million metric tons of medium grade ore."

Rodgers, Allen. The Manchurian Iron and Steel Industry and Its Resource Base. Geographical Review, Vol. 38, No. 1 (Jan., 1948), pp. 48

Japan had MORE than enough ore reserves in Manchuria to meet any wartime demands that they might have. Taiwan, Korea, and China practically had NOTHING, Malay had a meager 75 million tons. They had been lacking in ways to smelt the medium grade ore to get a good purity. It was not the failure of Japanese industry that made Manchuria unable to supply enough quality steel, it was the poor smelting processes that they conducted their operations that provided such little quality steel from the massive amounts of ore available.
That may be right and most likely is. The embargo on oil was of far greater importance, though.

I'm quoting Wiki here, as it corroborates the history books I have read.

The League of Nations, the U.S., the UK, Australia, and the Netherlands, which had territorial interests in Southeast Asia and the Philippines, condemned the Japanese attacks on China and applied diplomatic pressure. Japan resigned from the League of Nations in response. In July 1939, the U.S. terminated the 1911 U.S./Japanese commerce treaty, which both showed official disapprobation and removed legal barriers to imposition of trade embargoes. Japan continued its military campaign in China and signed the Anti-Comintern Pact with Nazi Germany, formally ending World War I hostilities, and declaring common interests. In 1940, Japan signed the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Fascist Italy to form the Axis Powers.

These Japanese actions led the U.S. to embargo scrap metal and gasoline, and to close the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping. The situation worsened, and in 1941, Japan moved into northern Indochina. The U.S. responded by freezing Japan's assets in the U.S. and instituting a complete oil embargo.[1] Oil was Japan's most crucial resource; her own supplies were very limited, and 80% of Japan's imports were from the U.S. The Imperial Navy relied entirely on imported bunker oil stocks.[2]

There was considerable division in the Japanese high command. The Army wanted to "go south", to capture the oil and mineral reserves of the Dutch East Indies. The Navy was certain this would bring the U.S. into the war. To forestall American interference, an attack on the Pacific Fleet was considered essential. (The certainty of American aid to Britain in the Pacific was far from clear at the time, even to today.)

Diplomatic negotiations with the U.S. climaxed with the Hull note of November 26, 1941, which Prime Minister Hideki Tojo described to his cabinet as an ultimatum. Japanese leaders felt they had to choose between complying with the demands of the U.S. and UK — backing down from its actions in China and surrounding areas — and continuing to expand. Concerned about losing status and prestige in the international community ("loss of face") if compelled to comply, and with the perceived threat to national survival posed by the western powers, the Japanese leadership (under Emperor Hirohito) decided to implement contingency plans, choosing war with the United States, United Kingdom, and the Netherlands as a direct response.

On September 4, 1941, at the second of two Imperial Conferences attended by the Emperor considering an attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese Cabinet met to consider the attack plans prepared by Imperial General Headquarters. It was decided that:

Our Empire, for the purpose of self-defence and self-preservation, will complete preparations for war ... [and is] ... resolved to go to war with the United States, Great Britain and the Netherlands if necessary. Our Empire will concurrently take all possible diplomatic measures vis-a-vis the United States and Great Britain, and thereby endeavor to obtain our objectives ... In the event that there is no prospect of our demands being met by the first ten days of October through the diplomatic negotiations mentioned above, we will immediately decide to commence hostilities against the United States, Britain and the Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Background
You can't blame the war on the US just because Japanese industry lacked the ability to make quality steel from medium quality ore. The Japanese lied to the US State Department so they could wipe out PACFLT. They were in no danger until they attacked.
I don't blame the US for the Pacific War/Pearl Harbor attack. The embargo was rightfully a US prerogative and Pearl Harbor was solely a Japanese decison.

And yes, they were not sanguine in their diplomacy (lied through their teeth) in order to get surprise at Pearl.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
That may be right and most likely is. The embargo on oil was of far greater importance, though.

I'm quoting Wiki here, as it corroborates the history books I have read.


I don't blame the US for the Pacific War/Pearl Harbor attack. The embargo was rightfully a US prerogative and Pearl Harbor was solely a Japanese decison.

And yes, they were not sanguine in their diplomacy (lied through their teeth) in order to get surprise at Pearl.
I posted that more for the benifit of Future Tank than anyone else. He stated

Future Tank said:
Finally after December 7, 1941 US was forced into a war by denying Japan access to scrap metal (effectively imposing US limit over Japan's industrial capacity though that capacity was being used to build naval vessels).
The scrap metal and oil embargoes are two different things. The scrap embargo came from the Japanese allying with Hitler. The oil embargo came from attacking IndoChina.

To rely on wiki for interpretations is not wise... let me go and edit that so it's right. :lam

If Japan wanted to avoid US interference they should never have allied with Hitler... that was the begining of the end for them, not attacking SEA countries. The US had sat idely by for decades... they really didn't care until they sided with Facists and drew blood.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@Big-E
I haven't posted anything in this thread so far. Looks like you mistake me woith somebody else.
I am just a quiet reader in this interesting thread. :)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
you even further tarnish the memory of those who served by trivializing their sacrifice by blaming industrialization for their deaths. Let me set the record straight... Lusitania... remember?
WW1 was an industrialized war in the sense that casualties reflected use of massive fires (either infantry such as MG or artillery). Casualties were not indicative of massed heroism as in wars before where troops would bravely stand in lines and deliver volleys, but simply for being there and suffereing a barrage without firing a shot back or even seeing the enemy. The US casualties thefore can not be used to describe the 'sacrifice'. Nor were US casualties a sacrifice in the same way French, German and British casualties were in some of the earlier battles (and later like Battle of Passchendaele). By the time Americans arrived these tactics were banned by their respective governements, and that was the reason Monash received an award from the King in the field. It was not only for actually achieving real results, but also the relatively low cost in lives that that result was achieved.
I would suggest that US casualties need be examined with greater statistical diligence, and on case by case basis, then using them in this emotional way.

Lusitania was a God-sent to US, and a blunder by Germans. The US public was generally NOT in support of participation in the European war. For US to enter the war, it had to be a 'good war' cause, and sinking of Lusitania made it that. Public opinion changed overnight.

Japan didn't attack the US because they embargoed them, they attacked on a gamble that the carriers would be in port. They weren't negotiating, they were stalling for time to decieve their intentions. Who writes your history books?
My books are writen by historians, but you apparently only read movie scripts.

The need to attack US Pacific Fleet carriers was a tactical objective that existed within larger operational and strategic scopes of operations, military, political and economic.

Let's review major STRATEGIC events in the Asia-Pacific.
•1939: U.S. notifies Japan that it will abrogate the 1911 treaty of commerce and navigation.
•1940: Japan sets up a puppet government in Nanking under Wang Ching-wei.
•1940: Japan demands that Britain and France stop providing aid to Chungking through Indochina and Burma. Burma Road closed for July-September 1940.
•1940: September; tripartite German-Italian-Japanese axis alliance signed in Berlin.
•1940: In response to tripartite axis alliance, Churchill reopens the Burma Road.
•1940: September: France occupies northern Indochina. U.S. embargoes export of scrap iron.
•1941: March: Japan signs non-aggression treaty with Soviet Union.
•1941: June: Hitler attacks the Soviet Union
•1941: July: Japan occupies southern Indochina
•1941: July: U.S. freezes Japanese assets.
•1941: December: Japan strikes at Pearl Harbor, and throughout the southwestern Pacific.

Your argiment that Japan had sufficient access to iron ore is not convincing. Firstly iron ore in Manchuria was low grade as I recall.
Secondly the Japanese, despite building aircraft carriers, were still, like Europeans, believers in the battleship (as were many US Navy senior officers). Shps require an awfull lot of steel to manufacture, and the Japanese knew US production capabilities. Their only hope was that US would be dragged into war in Europe, and that they would be able to consolidate their positions in the Pacific.

In December 1941 the Japanese plans were in some ways acceptable and in some ways not. While US did not enter the European war against Germany (that begun in 1939, and there was little sign of this cpability being available in 1942, the Soviet Army had been driven to the walls of Moscow, and threrefore was unlikely to present a threat in China. The Japanese Army faction then in power agreed that if US was not attacked in 1941, by 1942 its industrial prduction may begin to be geared to wartime footing, and enable ti to react more swiftly to Japanese military strategy. It was therefore decided to conduct an attack sooner rather then later. This was forced on Japanese because they were rapidly running out of fuel since they had no deliveries from the US between July and September without Roosevelt's knowledge!

Here is how it looked from Tokyo:
"The United States contributed to that turn of events by instituting a de facto embargo on [exports of] oil [to Japan]. The freezing of Japanese assets, announced on 25 July [1941], had been followed by a week of intensive work by State Department, Treasury, and other officials to set up a machinery for implementing the order. The idea, which Roosevelt approved, was to let the Japanese apply for export licenses which would then be examined on a case-by-case basis and necessary funds released from blocked Japanese monies to purchase the goods. Oil, too, would be dealt with in this fashion. But the processing of applications for licenses and the releease of funds took time, and the matter was overseen by Dean Acheson, assistant secretary of state, who refused to release funds, intent upon punishing Japan for its southern expansionism [into Indochina]. The result was that Japan never got any oil after 25 July, a fact that even Roosevelt did not find out until early September. But the Japanese were under no illusion about the matter. They now realized that a total oil embargo was being put into effect. Japanese strategy would now have to take that development into consideration.... Prime Minister Konoe himself told the war and navy ministers that matters stood 'only a step this side of entering into a major war'. They reasoned that the American oil embargo would force the nation to... incorporate the region [of southeast Asia with its oil fields] into the [Japanese] empire. But such action would inevitably draw the United States, Britain, and the Dutch into war.... The oil embargo was seen as tantamount to an act of war, and Japan would respond by its own military action..." Origins of the Second World War in Asia and in the Pacific Review of Akira Iriye's (New York: Longman, 1987)

Now, are you old enough to remember the 1973 oil crisis first began on October 17, 1973? It was in fact an oil embargo on the USA. Do you remeber Washington saying 'never again'? Do you remember why US-led forces liberated Kuwait in 1991?
Why do you think Japanese would respond differently to being starved of oil just when their Empire is growing nicely and European colonies are collapsing under their strategy?

Failure to achieve damage on US carriers was just a tactical failure. It was a failure, but in Japanese view acceptable (subject to current understanding of naval warfare) an acceptable one, and a testament to the age old knowledge that no plan ever went 100% to plan :)

Now I suggest you calm down, have a :drunk1 and do a bit more reading then :usa waving
 
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