Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[kashifshahzad]

However what if a nation that has good ties with Pakistan also wants to buy a Rafales, but in significant numbers, would the PAF and the air force of that nation host a joint order, and would the PAF then acquire 40+ Rafales?

Man i am in favour of J-XX caz if there will be an agreement on technology transfer then this will be a really good thing for Pakistan's denfece but the question is this what to buy now I have heard that US is giving palnes to both countries Pak and India that will be crutial

 

[SABRE]

There would be no ToT for J-XX (atleast not for the 1st 20 years or so) & very few countries would be on Export list.

Pakistan also has an option of JSF-35 in the future, when they start to ground F-16s.

 

[kashifshahzad]

There would be no ToT for J-XX (atleast not for the 1st 20 years or so) & very few countries would be on Export list.

Pakistan also has an option of JSF-35 in the future, when they start to ground F-16s.

Then i think the F-16's are quite best because of their performance and their price but there is a doubt that India might these F-16's so going for gripens in not a bad idea

 

[SABRE]

F-16 will only stay till 2020 to 2025. Gripen will stay til 2030. In 2030 u would again be in same crises u r in right now. There fore PAF requires a 5th Generation AC such as EF-2000, Rafale, JSF & J-XX. J-XX is long march from here. About 2015 or 2020, hence till they come out for export it is better that PAF opts for Rafales. Since dessault is saying that MultiRole Rafales are going to be cheaper (US $35 million to $45Million) I think it would be worth seeing. I think the delay in selection of any new AC is related to MultiRole versions of Rafale. Before PAF makes final selection they would like to see the multirole versions.

 

[SABRE]

My Advice is ;

1. Rafales
2. F-16s
3. JF-17s
4. J-10
5. JH-7

Mass support fighters

6. F-7PG BVR only
7. Mirage-3 ROSE only

 

[kashifshahzad]

My Advice is ;

1. Rafales
2. F-16s
3. JF-17s
4. J-10
5. JH-7

Mass support fighters

6. F-7PG BVR only
7. Mirage-3 ROSE only

Dassault Rafale

Origin: France
Type: multi-role combat aircraft
Max Speed: 1,150 kt / 1,324 mph
Max Range 1,093 km / 679 miles
Dimensions: span 10.90 m / 35 ft 9.125 in
length 15.30 m / 50 ft 2.375 in
height 5.34 m / 17 ft 6.25 in
Weight: empty 9060 kg / 19,973 lb
maximum 19,500 kg / 42,990 lb
Powerplant: two 7450-kg (16,424-lb) afterburning thrust SNECMA M88-2 turbofans
Armament: one 30-mm DEFA 791 B cannon, plus provision for up to 6000 kg (13,228 Ib) of disposable stores carried on 14 external hardpoints
Operators: France



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General Dynamics F-16A/B Fighting Falcon

Origin: USA
Type: single-seat air-combat and multi-role fighter
Max Speed: 1,146 kt / 1,320 mph
Max Range 3,886 km / 2,415 miles
Dimensions: span 10.00 m / 32 ft 9.75 in
length 15.03 m / 49 ft 4 in
height 5.09 m / 16 ft 8.5 in
Weight: empty 8,273 kg / 18,218 lb
max. take-off 19,187 lb
Powerplant: one 13154-kg (29,000-lb) afterburning thrust Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 or General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan
Armament: one 20-mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon with 500 rounds, plus provision for up to 9276 kg (20,450 Ib) of externa ordnance on one underfuselage, six underwing and two tip hardpoints, this total declining to 5420 kg (11,950 Ib) for sorties including 9-g manoeuvres; the ordnance can include AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, a wide range of disposable ordnance (free-tall and guided), drop tanks and electronic pods (ECM, reconnaissance and targeting)

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FC-1/JF-17 MULTIROLE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

Crew: One
Wingspan: 9.00 m
Length: 14 m
Height: 5.10 m
Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
+G Limit: 8.5

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J-10 MULTIROLE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

Crew: 1 (basic variant); 2 (fighter-trainer variant)
Dimensions: N/A
Weight: N/A
Max Speed: Mach 1.2 (sea-level) or Mach 2.0 (high altitude)
Range: Combat radius over 550km
Service Ceiling: N/A
Max Climb Rate: N/A
G Limit: N/A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JH-7 (FBC-1 Flying Leopard) Fighter-Bomber

Crew: Two (1 pilot and 1 weapon operator)
Wingspan: 12.8 m
Length: 21.00 m
Height: 6.22 m
Maximum take-off weight: 27,500 kg
Internal fuel: 6,540 kg
Drop tanks: One 1,000 kg + two 600 kg; or three 1,000 kg
Maximum speed: Mach 1.69 (at 11,000 m)
Service ceiling: 16,000 m
Range: Ferry range 3,650 km, combat radius 1,650 km

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F-7 P/PG

Origin: China
Type: Multi-Role Fighter
Max Speed: 1,175 kt (1,350 mph)
Max Range 600 km (373 miles)
Dimensions: span 7.154 m / 23 ft 5.625 in
length 13.945 m / 45 ft 9 in
height 4.103 m / 13 ft 5.5 in
Weight: empty 5275 kg / 11,629 lb normal take-off 7531 kg / 16,603 lb
Power Plant: one Liyang (LMC) Wopen WP-7B(BM) rated at 43.15 kN (9.700 Ib st) dry and 59.82 kN (13,448 Ib st) with after-burning. This is derived from the Tumanskii R-1 IF-300
Armament: Two internal 30 mm Type 30-1 cannon or One 23 mm Type 23-3 cannon AIM-9L Sidewinder; PL-2, PL-5, bombs; rockets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dassault Mirage-III/V Series (Pak Upgraded)

Origin: France
Type: Multi-Role Fighter
Max Speed: 750 kt (863 mph)
Max Range 685 km (425 miles)
Dimensions: Span 8.22 m / 26 ft 11.6 in
Length 15.50 m / 50 ft 10.2 in
Height 4.50 m / 14 ft 9 in
Weight: Empty 6,600 kg / 14,550 lb
max. take-off 13,700 kg /
30,203 lb
Power Plant: One 6200-kg (13,668-lb) afterburning thrust SNECMA Atar9C turbojet
Armament: Option of carrying two 30-mm DEFA 552A cannon with 125rounds per gun and, in exceptional circumstances, air-to-surface armament




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[srirangan]

Dassault Rafale

Origin: France
Type: multi-role combat aircraft
Max Speed: 1,150 kt / 1,324 mph
Max Range 1,093 km / 679 miles
Dimensions: span 10.90 m / 35 ft 9.125 in
length 15.30 m / 50 ft 2.375 in
height 5.34 m / 17 ft 6.25 in
Weight: empty 9060 kg / 19,973 lb
maximum 19,500 kg / 42,990 lb
Powerplant: two 7450-kg (16,424-lb) afterburning thrust SNECMA M88-2 turbofans
Armament: one 30-mm DEFA 791 B cannon, plus provision for up to 6000 kg (13,228 Ib) of disposable stores carried on 14 external hardpoints
Operators: France



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Dynamics F-16A/B Fighting Falcon

Origin: USA
Type: single-seat air-combat and multi-role fighter
Max Speed: 1,146 kt / 1,320 mph
Max Range 3,886 km / 2,415 miles
Dimensions: span 10.00 m / 32 ft 9.75 in
length 15.03 m / 49 ft 4 in
height 5.09 m / 16 ft 8.5 in
Weight: empty 8,273 kg / 18,218 lb
max. take-off 19,187 lb
Powerplant: one 13154-kg (29,000-lb) afterburning thrust Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 or General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan
Armament: one 20-mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon with 500 rounds, plus provision for up to 9276 kg (20,450 Ib) of externa ordnance on one underfuselage, six underwing and two tip hardpoints, this total declining to 5420 kg (11,950 Ib) for sorties including 9-g manoeuvres; the ordnance can include AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, a wide range of disposable ordnance (free-tall and guided), drop tanks and electronic pods (ECM, reconnaissance and targeting)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FC-1/JF-17 MULTIROLE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

Crew: One
Wingspan: 9.00 m
Length: 14 m
Height: 5.10 m
Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
+G Limit: 8.5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J-10 MULTIROLE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

Crew: 1 (basic variant); 2 (fighter-trainer variant)
Dimensions: N/A
Weight: N/A
Max Speed: Mach 1.2 (sea-level) or Mach 2.0 (high altitude)
Range: Combat radius over 550km
Service Ceiling: N/A
Max Climb Rate: N/A
G Limit: N/A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JH-7 (FBC-1 Flying Leopard) Fighter-Bomber

Crew: Two (1 pilot and 1 weapon operator)
Wingspan: 12.8 m
Length: 21.00 m
Height: 6.22 m
Maximum take-off weight: 27,500 kg
Internal fuel: 6,540 kg
Drop tanks: One 1,000 kg + two 600 kg; or three 1,000 kg
Maximum speed: Mach 1.69 (at 11,000 m)
Service ceiling: 16,000 m
Range: Ferry range 3,650 km, combat radius 1,650 km

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F-7 P/PG

Origin: China
Type: Multi-Role Fighter
Max Speed: 1,175 kt (1,350 mph)
Max Range 600 km (373 miles)
Dimensions: span 7.154 m / 23 ft 5.625 in
length 13.945 m / 45 ft 9 in
height 4.103 m / 13 ft 5.5 in
Weight: empty 5275 kg / 11,629 lb normal take-off 7531 kg / 16,603 lb
Power Plant: one Liyang (LMC) Wopen WP-7B(BM) rated at 43.15 kN (9.700 Ib st) dry and 59.82 kN (13,448 Ib st) with after-burning. This is derived from the Tumanskii R-1 IF-300
Armament: Two internal 30 mm Type 30-1 cannon or One 23 mm Type 23-3 cannon AIM-9L Sidewinder; PL-2, PL-5, bombs; rockets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dassault Mirage-III/V Series (Pak Upgraded)

Origin: France
Type: Multi-Role Fighter
Max Speed: 750 kt (863 mph)
Max Range 685 km (425 miles)
Dimensions: Span 8.22 m / 26 ft 11.6 in
Length 15.50 m / 50 ft 10.2 in
Height 4.50 m / 14 ft 9 in
Weight: Empty 6,600 kg / 14,550 lb
max. take-off 13,700 kg /
30,203 lb
Power Plant: One 6200-kg (13,668-lb) afterburning thrust SNECMA Atar9C turbojet
Armament: Option of carrying two 30-mm DEFA 552A cannon with 125rounds per gun and, in exceptional circumstances, air-to-surface armament




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Good post mate!

 

[kashifshahzad]

I think this will help you people Pakistan wants to buy that plane which is inexpensive and give maximum benifits to its Air Force
i think Rafale is expensive
F-16 is good(if latest version are obtained)
We are making JF-17's
Why shoudnt we made this decision before (J-10's)
Yeah this will help us good choice too we also never talked about this too (JH-7)
F-7's will reamin in service
Dump old mirages III-V

Comment mates.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Good post mate!

Thankz Senior mate

 

[P.A.F]

my final say is get mirage 2000-? gripen or rafale. end of story. ooh and EF-2000 if possible.

 

[adsH]

Correct me if i am wrong the Rafael does not Compete very Favorably with the F-16. in-fact on paper Excluding its Gizmos its not impressive at all. anyone one having a bash at it would feel it being under powered for its weight. its Range is limited. if it wasn't for the Odd chance of a promised MRSF system it would statistically be an inferior fighter to an F-16. please comparing Technical data is not my thing Just explain me why the rafael is a better choice then the F-16 other then it being Politically Safe option for some Air-forces.

 

[kashifshahzad]

my final say is get mirage 2000-? gripen or rafale. end of story. ooh and EF-2000 if possible.

I think instead of Rafale there must be Gripens and instead of mirage III-V there must be a higher version of mirages other things are ok

 

[srirangan]

I think instead of Rafale there must be Gripens and instead of mirage III-V there must be a higher version of mirages other things are ok

lol, this thread will never end. I think it should've ended with the F-16 announcements and must have been archived back then (164 pages is a LOT!).

We can have a new thread for the new acquisitions as soon as we get more information regarding the nature of the purchase. What's been happening on this thread is pure and pure speculation.

There still has been no official note on the class of fighters PAF wants to acquire after the F-16's, and then we end up with pure speculative and imaginative comments advocating swapping of Rafales with Grippens, two fighters that are hardly comparable.

Let this thread end please!

 

[kashifshahzad]

lol, this thread will never end. I think it should've ended with the F-16 announcements and must have been archived back then (164 pages is a LOT!).

We can have a new thread for the new acquisitions as soon as we get more information regarding the nature of the purchase. What's been happening on this thread is pure and pure speculation.

There still has been no official note on the class of fighters PAF wants to acquire after the F-16's, and then we end up with pure speculative and imaginative comments advocating swapping of Rafales with Grippens, two fighters that are hardly comparable.

Let this thread end please!

Can you tell me the difference between these two :
I think aircrafts are same there is some what difference in their range nothing else they carry same missile names are different only so how can you distuingish between these two :
Suppose in a war two planes fire AAM's and both are hit so both gone so how can one can be superior

 

[SABRE]

Kashif....from what I understand, the age of comparision is gone. Its the age of getting the better of object, being superior & more advance than the competitor. You cant offer different products with similar characteristics any more.

 

[SABRE]

Not it has to do any thing with the topic, this is just an info since every one has been asking "Can Pakistan afford this & that AC"

I went through unpublished govt papers related to "FOREX"....it seems that Pakistan has gained $3 Billion US-D in last 9 months & 10 months from now it is expected to increase 3 times the ratio. So in fab 2006 Pakistan may collect abt $9 to 10 Billion (adding current 3 Billion=12 to 13Billion+what ever forex is in the inventory right now) US-D in FOREX (FOREX= foregin exchange reserves). Hence by the mid of 2006 PAF can have enough money to buy atleast 1 sqdn of Rafale, if thats what they want.

The FOREX report would be made public soon. Some papers have already ran the report prior to govt announcements on fiscal year.

Meanwhile PM is still consistent on not allowing the usege of FOREX on any thing not usefull or importent for the time being. He wants to build up the FOREX surplus hence PAF might not get any thing out of FOREX before 2k7.

 

[srirangan]

Not it has to do any thing with the topic, this is just an info since every one has been asking "Can Pakistan afford this & that AC"

I went through unpublished govt papers related to "FOREX"....it seems that Pakistan has gained $3 Billion US-D in last 9 months & 10 months from now it is expected to increase 3 times the ratio. So in fab 2006 Pakistan may collect abt $9 to 10 Billion (adding current 3 Billion=12 to 13Billion+what ever forex is in the inventory right now) US-D in FOREX (FOREX= foregin exchange reserves). Hence by the mid of 2006 PAF can have enough money to buy atleast 1 sqdn of Rafale, if thats what they want.

The FOREX report would be made public soon. Some papers have already ran the report prior to govt announcements on fiscal year.

Meanwhile PM is still consistent on not allowing the usege of FOREX on any thing not usefull or importent for the time being. He wants to build up the FOREX surplus hence PAF might not get any thing out of FOREX before 2k7.

Forex reserves are exactly that, reserves. Apart from war time they are seldom used for military purposes.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Hence by the mid of 2006 PAF can have enough money to buy atleast 1 sqdn of Rafales.

In one squardon how many planes are there i wanted to ask this

 

[P.A.F]

it depends on how big u want a squadron to be. it can be 10, 20, 30 ,40.......

 

[kashifshahzad]

it depends on how big u want a squadron to be. it can be 10, 20, 30 ,40.......

How may squadrons does Pakistan have now of F-16's and other AC's and what is the number of planes in each