I will take a DU penetrator over a Tungsten, with Tungsten it is prone for mushrooming or breaking, DU is more of a dense material and will maintain it`s sharpness when penetrating armor. The M829A3 is the most advanced tank round in the world. The Dm53 and Dm63 are good rounds also and can take out most tank threats that are out there.
Turkish M60A1 upgrade
- Thread starter swerve
- Start date
The difference between DM53 and DM63 is that DM63 has less problems with extreme temperatures. So it is better suited for countries outside of middle europe.
There are rumours that Rheinmetall also mastered the self shapening effect with the DM53/63 rounds.
In the end it the L/55-DM53 combination is more powerfull than the british L30 with DU ammo combination.
There are rumours that Rheinmetall also mastered the self shapening effect with the DM53/63 rounds.
In the end it the L/55-DM53 combination is more powerfull than the british L30 with DU ammo combination.
You guys are also experiencing less barrel erosion with this round to, right?
knightrider4
Active Member
Barrel wear
Can any of you Tankmen inform me as to how many KE tungsten rounds can an M256 cannon fire before barrel wear affects accuracy? Say firing KEW-A2 rounds thanks in advance.
Can any of you Tankmen inform me as to how many KE tungsten rounds can an M256 cannon fire before barrel wear affects accuracy? Say firing KEW-A2 rounds thanks in advance.
Are you referring to the Egytian tank round that we helped design for them.
greywolf109
New Member
Sabra MkII already being replased
ok guys here's the deal, first of all everybody here has my respect as it is the first forum where i have not seen greeks come in and stir shit, they come in and stick to subject...
Now, the Sabra MkIV fleet is almost completed and should be ready by october..
here are some of the features,
M-60-A1 RISE/Passive
Number of units: 274
170 units are under SABRA III upgrade program which is to be completed by the end of 2008. The upgrade program encompasses thermal imaging and Elbit Knight-III fire control system (including stabilizer and ballistic computer), 120mm Merkawa-IV L-42 smoothbore cannon (compatible with LAHAT guided ammunition) and fume extractor, automatic fire and explosion suppression system, Merkawa-IV add-on armor technology and explosive reactive armor (ERA), 1000 hp MTU diesel engine/RENK transmission, full system modernization and integration capability, new improved Merkawa-IV tracks, RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection. The remaining M60A1 and M60A3 tanks are likely to undergo the same upgrade process with more involvement of Turkish companies, upon completion of the upgrade of first 170 tanks.
once turkeys self design and manufacture begins, all Sabra's are expected to be the MkIV model.
now i no how easy it is for someone to make up all those specs so i will go hunting for the site now and post a link cheers ,
and by the way. Merkava MkIV armour makes leopard and m1a1 armour obsolete, did and of u guys hear about the time and MkII took 7 hits from anti tank projectiles, and one of them was supposedly a MILAN...imagine and MkIV
ok guys here's the deal, first of all everybody here has my respect as it is the first forum where i have not seen greeks come in and stir shit, they come in and stick to subject...
Now, the Sabra MkIV fleet is almost completed and should be ready by october..
here are some of the features,
M-60-A1 RISE/Passive
Number of units: 274
170 units are under SABRA III upgrade program which is to be completed by the end of 2008. The upgrade program encompasses thermal imaging and Elbit Knight-III fire control system (including stabilizer and ballistic computer), 120mm Merkawa-IV L-42 smoothbore cannon (compatible with LAHAT guided ammunition) and fume extractor, automatic fire and explosion suppression system, Merkawa-IV add-on armor technology and explosive reactive armor (ERA), 1000 hp MTU diesel engine/RENK transmission, full system modernization and integration capability, new improved Merkawa-IV tracks, RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection. The remaining M60A1 and M60A3 tanks are likely to undergo the same upgrade process with more involvement of Turkish companies, upon completion of the upgrade of first 170 tanks.
once turkeys self design and manufacture begins, all Sabra's are expected to be the MkIV model.
now i no how easy it is for someone to make up all those specs so i will go hunting for the site now and post a link cheers ,
and by the way. Merkava MkIV armour makes leopard and m1a1 armour obsolete, did and of u guys hear about the time and MkII took 7 hits from anti tank projectiles, and one of them was supposedly a MILAN...imagine and MkIV
greywolf109
New Member
link problem
for some reason it wont let me post the link..something about 15 posts..
anyway heres the story, its off the site defencenews.com
Israel, Turkey Dedicate Tank Production Line
By BARBARA OPALL-ROME, TEL AVIV
Israeli and Turkish defense officials marked the start of joint production of upgraded M60A1 tanks for the Turkish Army in Nov. 22 ceremonies at Kayseri, Turkey, site of the new production line.
Murad Bayar, director of the Turkish Defense Ministry’s Undersecretariat for Defense Industries or Savunma Sanayi Mustesarligi (SSM), hosted the Israeli delegation, which included Israeli Defense Ministry Director-General Jacob Toren, Yossi Ben-Hanan, director of the ministry’s Sibat export agency, and executives from Israel Military Industries (IMI) and Elbit Systems, lead industrial partners in the upgrade program.
The $688 million program calls for upgrading 170 M60 tanks to front-line condition based on advanced technologies and systems developed for Israel’s Merkava main battle tank. Under the contract concluded by the two governments in 2002, Israel committed to transferring to Turkey a significant amount of technology needed to ensure efficient in-country conversion and production of the modernized platforms.
The contract also required Israel to develop two prototypes designed specifically for Turkish Army requirements and to conduct a series of field tests validating the upgraded platform and its associated systems. Initial delays in prototype development and field testing prompted Turkey’s SSM earlier this year to withhold a payment of $93 million to prime contractor IMI.
Israeli and Turkish officials acknowledged initial tension in the high-priority program due to delays, managerial disputes and changing customer requirements. Nevertheless, sources said Ankara’s receipt last week of the modernized prototype following rigorous field tests in Israel demonstrates that the program is back on track.
“The prototype was delivered last week to the satisfaction of the customer, and it will undergo additional testing in Turkey,” an Israeli industry official said.
The official said the second prototype will remain in Israel for testing. He estimated that pilot production of major components in the Turkish tank conversion program would extend through late 2006, and that full serial production at the Kayseri facility in central Turkey would begin in early 2007. All 170 of the upgraded tanks should be ready for delivery to Turkey’s Land Forces Command by the end of 2009, sources here said.
Among the systems and technologies incorporated in the program are a fire control system and turret control system, advanced armor, a new power pack unit and a 120mm gun. Turkish industries working in partnership with IMI and Elbit include Aselsan Military Electronics Industries and Makina ve Kimya Endustrisi Kurumu, both of Ankara.
The program is managed by the SSM, the Turkish Defense Ministry’s procurement office.
Upgraded Turkish tanks will be outfitted with advanced armor designed for Israel’s newest Merkava Mk4 models, which program officials here say offer significantly enhanced survivability over earlier generations of Mk2 and Mk3 tanks. But even those older-model tanks are highly survivable in comparison with other frontline platforms, as demonstrated most recently in clashes along Israel’s northern border.
According to officials here, two Merkava Mk2s deployed in the sector sustained direct hits by anti-tank missiles and rockets launched Nov. 21 by Hizbollah forces in southern Lebanon. Despite repeated hits, all crew members survived the barrage, and only one soldier was later treated for light injuries.
“One of the Mk2s took seven hits and another was struck three times, but managed to carry on with its mission,” said Brig. Gen. Amir Nir, director of Israel’s Merkava tank program. “This is not surprising, since the subject of armored protection and survivability has been our supreme priority since the very beginning of our tank program. It’s built into our design and has served as the philosophical basis for our concept of operations. The armored capabilities destined for the Turkish upgrade program will be even greater than those involved in this week’s event on our northern border.”
In a Nov. 23 statement, Israeli Ministry of Defense spokeswoman Rachel Naidek-Ashkenazi said the Turkish tank modernization program “embodies years of accumulated technological and battlefield experience” on the part of Israeli industry and Israel’s Armored Corps.
She said Toren and Bayar discussed “the uniqueness of the project and how its contribution to cooperation between Israel and Turkey serves as a successful expression of bilateral defense industrial cooperation.”
for some reason it wont let me post the link..something about 15 posts..
anyway heres the story, its off the site defencenews.com
Israel, Turkey Dedicate Tank Production Line
By BARBARA OPALL-ROME, TEL AVIV
Israeli and Turkish defense officials marked the start of joint production of upgraded M60A1 tanks for the Turkish Army in Nov. 22 ceremonies at Kayseri, Turkey, site of the new production line.
Murad Bayar, director of the Turkish Defense Ministry’s Undersecretariat for Defense Industries or Savunma Sanayi Mustesarligi (SSM), hosted the Israeli delegation, which included Israeli Defense Ministry Director-General Jacob Toren, Yossi Ben-Hanan, director of the ministry’s Sibat export agency, and executives from Israel Military Industries (IMI) and Elbit Systems, lead industrial partners in the upgrade program.
The $688 million program calls for upgrading 170 M60 tanks to front-line condition based on advanced technologies and systems developed for Israel’s Merkava main battle tank. Under the contract concluded by the two governments in 2002, Israel committed to transferring to Turkey a significant amount of technology needed to ensure efficient in-country conversion and production of the modernized platforms.
The contract also required Israel to develop two prototypes designed specifically for Turkish Army requirements and to conduct a series of field tests validating the upgraded platform and its associated systems. Initial delays in prototype development and field testing prompted Turkey’s SSM earlier this year to withhold a payment of $93 million to prime contractor IMI.
Israeli and Turkish officials acknowledged initial tension in the high-priority program due to delays, managerial disputes and changing customer requirements. Nevertheless, sources said Ankara’s receipt last week of the modernized prototype following rigorous field tests in Israel demonstrates that the program is back on track.
“The prototype was delivered last week to the satisfaction of the customer, and it will undergo additional testing in Turkey,” an Israeli industry official said.
The official said the second prototype will remain in Israel for testing. He estimated that pilot production of major components in the Turkish tank conversion program would extend through late 2006, and that full serial production at the Kayseri facility in central Turkey would begin in early 2007. All 170 of the upgraded tanks should be ready for delivery to Turkey’s Land Forces Command by the end of 2009, sources here said.
Among the systems and technologies incorporated in the program are a fire control system and turret control system, advanced armor, a new power pack unit and a 120mm gun. Turkish industries working in partnership with IMI and Elbit include Aselsan Military Electronics Industries and Makina ve Kimya Endustrisi Kurumu, both of Ankara.
The program is managed by the SSM, the Turkish Defense Ministry’s procurement office.
Upgraded Turkish tanks will be outfitted with advanced armor designed for Israel’s newest Merkava Mk4 models, which program officials here say offer significantly enhanced survivability over earlier generations of Mk2 and Mk3 tanks. But even those older-model tanks are highly survivable in comparison with other frontline platforms, as demonstrated most recently in clashes along Israel’s northern border.
According to officials here, two Merkava Mk2s deployed in the sector sustained direct hits by anti-tank missiles and rockets launched Nov. 21 by Hizbollah forces in southern Lebanon. Despite repeated hits, all crew members survived the barrage, and only one soldier was later treated for light injuries.
“One of the Mk2s took seven hits and another was struck three times, but managed to carry on with its mission,” said Brig. Gen. Amir Nir, director of Israel’s Merkava tank program. “This is not surprising, since the subject of armored protection and survivability has been our supreme priority since the very beginning of our tank program. It’s built into our design and has served as the philosophical basis for our concept of operations. The armored capabilities destined for the Turkish upgrade program will be even greater than those involved in this week’s event on our northern border.”
In a Nov. 23 statement, Israeli Ministry of Defense spokeswoman Rachel Naidek-Ashkenazi said the Turkish tank modernization program “embodies years of accumulated technological and battlefield experience” on the part of Israeli industry and Israel’s Armored Corps.
She said Toren and Bayar discussed “the uniqueness of the project and how its contribution to cooperation between Israel and Turkey serves as a successful expression of bilateral defense industrial cooperation.”
Another brave statement.
What makes you think that Merkava Mrk.IV armor makes the protection of M1A2SEP or Leopard IIA6EX obsolete?
Do you have exact numbers of armor protection?
A frontal MILAN protection is nothing spectaculiar. Even Leopard IIA4 is protected against MILAN in the front (except the usual weakpoints).
And what does "anti-tank projectiles" say?
A Leopard IIA4 can normally survive multiple hits frontally from a Panzerfaust 3 (Even with new improved warhead) but might have problems with modern RPG-29.
What makes you think that Merkava Mrk.IV armor makes the protection of M1A2SEP or Leopard IIA6EX obsolete?
Do you have exact numbers of armor protection?
A frontal MILAN protection is nothing spectaculiar. Even Leopard IIA4 is protected against MILAN in the front (except the usual weakpoints).
And what does "anti-tank projectiles" say?
A Leopard IIA4 can normally survive multiple hits frontally from a Panzerfaust 3 (Even with new improved warhead) but might have problems with modern RPG-29.
greywolf109
New Member
i said m1a1..and sorry i ment leapord 1 or a4...i never said m1a2, however merkava armour is of equal standard to ,1a2 or leopard IIa6...however think of it its insurgent warfare its only logical thinking that the two merkava' s were not engaded head...but i agree with you otherwise, especially the rpg 29 lol that thing is a little overkill LMAO, google up t 95 MBT...its something different altogether
Which M1A1 would you be referring to, what type of rounds and what type of armor protection does the Merkava 3 or 4 have and as a added measure please tell us what makes you think that the armor protection level is on par with a M1A2 or LEO2A6.
greywolf109
New Member
if you guys would read before absolutuly trowing a fit you would see i said merkava mkIV, so a standard off the line mkIV, same goes for M1A2 and LEO2A6, off the production line no upgrade's, if you compare upgraded abrams and leo's then you have got to compare them to the merkava with the trophy active protection system, which is the only upgraded merkava i know of...however none of these tanks are any good without a proper crew
Doesn't exist. In plain form anyway, which would be the Leo 2A6EX technology demonstrator.
The Leo 2A6 (without M variants) "in the wild" only exists as: upgrade for Leo 2A5; Strv 122; Leo 2E; Leo 2HEL.
Maybe one should add that there are a alot of different version of Leopards II out there which differ in armor protection.
Leopard IIA4
Leopard IIA5/A6/A6M (additional KWSII protection, M with additonal mine protection)
Leopard IIA5DK (KWSII + additional hull protection)
Strv122 (KWSII + additional hull and turret top armor)
Leopard IIE/HEL (the same like Strv122)
AFAIK there are no Leopards below A4 config running around anywhere on the world and the Strv122 as well as the Leopard IIE and HEL are so far the most capable Leos in regular service.
Sad to say that Germany currently operates the least capable Leos if one only counts the upgraded ones.
Leopard IIA4
Leopard IIA5/A6/A6M (additional KWSII protection, M with additonal mine protection)
Leopard IIA5DK (KWSII + additional hull protection)
Strv122 (KWSII + additional hull and turret top armor)
Leopard IIE/HEL (the same like Strv122)
AFAIK there are no Leopards below A4 config running around anywhere on the world and the Strv122 as well as the Leopard IIE and HEL are so far the most capable Leos in regular service.
Sad to say that Germany currently operates the least capable Leos if one only counts the upgraded ones.
Maybe one should add that there are a alot of different version of Leopards II out there in service which differ alot in armor protection.
Leopard IIA4
Leopard IIA5/A6/A6M (additional KWSII protection, M with additonal mine protection)
Leopard IIA5DK (KWSII + additional hull protection)
Strv122 (KWSII + additional hull and turret top armor)
Leopard IIE/HEL (the same like Strv122)
AFAIK there are no Leopards below A4 config running around anywhere on the world and the Strv122 as well as the Leopard IIE and HEL are so far the most capable Leos in regular service.
And the E and HEL are the only ones which currently run of any production line. The Strv122 production is long finished and the rest of the modern Leos are upgraded A4s from German and Dutch stocks.
Sad to say that Germany currently operates the least capable Leos if one only counts the upgraded ones.
Leopard IIA4
Leopard IIA5/A6/A6M (additional KWSII protection, M with additonal mine protection)
Leopard IIA5DK (KWSII + additional hull protection)
Strv122 (KWSII + additional hull and turret top armor)
Leopard IIE/HEL (the same like Strv122)
AFAIK there are no Leopards below A4 config running around anywhere on the world and the Strv122 as well as the Leopard IIE and HEL are so far the most capable Leos in regular service.
And the E and HEL are the only ones which currently run of any production line. The Strv122 production is long finished and the rest of the modern Leos are upgraded A4s from German and Dutch stocks.
Sad to say that Germany currently operates the least capable Leos if one only counts the upgraded ones.
Good to have you back greywolf109, yes the Merkava 3 and 4 series MBTs are fully capable tanks that rank quite nicely with other modern MBTs. You are also correct that tank crew training is very important and will play some of the deciding factors on winning a armored skirmished with your opponent. The trophy system is still being fined tuned and issued to IDF vehicles with other countries showing some interest installing the same setup onto their armored vehicles, the U.S was actively seeking to install them on their armored vehicles but for some reason have decided to research the Raytheon approach with a similar system called Iron Fist, so the verdict is still out on what we may go with, we are also testing some other things inregards to countermeasure devices. The U.S is also looking at a MBT M1 series upgrade package with a vehicle designation of M1A3, here is a list of some of the upgrades that we may see.if you guys would read before absolutuly trowing a fit you would see i said merkava mkIV, so a standard off the line mkIV, same goes for M1A2 and LEO2A6, off the production line no upgrade's, if you compare upgraded abrams and leo's then you have got to compare them to the merkava with the trophy active protection system, which is the only upgraded merkava i know of...however none of these tanks are any good without a proper crew
Better Armor for flank and rear coverage
Upgraded maingun
Auto loader while still retaining four crew members
Countermeasure package
Electronics upgrade to support the FCS program
propulsion system
So as you can see the days of the combat heavies will be with us for quite some time to come with even Isreal researching a improved Merkava.
greywolf109
New Member
thats my point exactly you cant compare upgraded leo's and abrams to merkava if it has no upgraded version yet....i was wathcing a show on the korean xk2...the thing is a beast...do you guys know any details about it...m1a3 sounds kick-ass...my favorute tanks are the m1 and leo...but i am interested in the xk2, t90 and challanger 2....i am very anxious to see what turkey is going to put on the front once the national tank program is complete...
Yes - the ROK XK2 is a very capable weapons platform with Turkey signing a technology agreement with the ROK to implement some of the XK2 technology on their future tank design, if you browse thru land forces you will find threads discussing in detail each tank that you have a interest in.
greywolf109
New Member
cheers eckherl..will look around