Turkish Air Force - Türk Hava Kuvvetleri

[Sandhi Yudha]

If the $20 billion arms sale (that includes 40 F-16V Block 70 fighter jets as well as upgrades to Turkey’s current F-16 fleet) is cleared by the Congress, Turkey may still have to wait a long period of time before it receives the new jets amid an F-16 production backlog.

The F-16 backlog seems to be around 120. I don't know what the production rate of F-16s is at Lockheed-Martin, but i wouldn't be surprised if its 10 per month. Than one year waiting shouldn't be a big problem.

But if the sale is blocked by the congress, then Turkey has to step up the development of the indigenous stealth fighter program, while searching for an alternative. It is highly unlikely that Turkey considers the Rafale, will they go for the EF2000? Or will they be that disappointed that their rivals can get the F-35 without any problems, and Turkey can not get the F-16V or even upgrade packages, to the point that Turkey will order the Su-35 or something else Russian?

Turkey F-16 sale in congressional limbo amid Lockheed backlog

Congress hasn't approved an F-16 sale to Turkey. Even if it does, Ankara will likely have to contend with a lengthy production queue for the in-demand jet.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Ananda]

Bit few weeks old, however seems this is asside from TFX is what Turkiye going to put their card on. Bayraktar Kizilelma seems Turkish leverage on having carrier base aircraft. Since F-35 is going to off limit for some time (perhaps until Sultan Erdo gave up the throne), they are goingbto put this Kizilelma in their LHD as light carrier concept.

F-16V (newly build and upgrade kits) prolong bargaining seems going to be Turkiye incentives to gain more independent on their MIC. However engine still.seens going to be their Achilles heels. This Kizilelma still using Ukrainian turbofan.

For that I do believe Turkiye keeping their supply line to Ukraine open not only as testing ground for their UCAV, but also gaining access to what's left on Ukrainian MIC. Motorsich practically what Turkish media and forums talk about as big price on Ukrainian MIC.

 

[Ananda]

Our First Full Look At Turkey's New TF-X Stealthy Fighter

Turkey's home-grown low-observable tactical jet has emerged in full for the first time ahead of its formal rollout.

www.thedrive.com

Turkiye first TFX prototype begin their taxi run. Again the issue on the engine choices become potential problems that not only can prolong the program full production, but also Sultan Erdo ambition to export this TFX.

Engine problem already creating export problem before for Turkiye T129 Atak gunship helicopter. Philippines T129 order begin to come after long lobbying to US not only from Turkish and Philippines side, but also (if the rumours was true) from Italian (as A129 producer which T129 base on).

As Kizilelma UCAV above that using Ukrainian Turbofan, Turkiye TAI still not put anything official on what will be the engine of choices for TFX prototype let alone the production model. The F110 the drive article put, as far as I see from Turkiye media and forums is still speculation. Speculation that come from Turkiye licensing agreement on F110 production for their F-16.

India and Japan ambition for their own fighters also being hampered with problem on developing their own turbofan (Kaveri for India and XF9 for Japan). This with the fact (despite Turkiye fanboys bragging) that India and Japan stage on their turbofan development is already in more advance stages then Turkiye turbofan.

Turkiye Tusas program of TF-6000 and TF-1400 both aim for Kizilelma UCAV and their helicopters, seems on progress. However looking on their schedule, I do have doubt that TF-6000 can move to production trials as expected time schedule, unless some outside expertise from mature turbofan producers can be gain. Perhaps they already have gain some access from Ukrainian Motorsich considering the situation now. Ukrainian MIC do really need money and their engineer pools do really need jobs (and safety).

This is just my own speculation, but considering Tusas previous effort to gain Rolls Royce help seems bogged down so far, gaining Motorsich expertise is their best hope to exelerate their own learning curve. After all despite all the efforts, jumping learning curve most likely can happen with external help from mature producers.

 

[Ananda]

First flight of Turkiye LIFT Hurjet. This is TAI effort to not only find replacement for T38, but also entering potential LCA market as KAI has done with FA-50.

 

[Ananda]

Few days old, from Baykar own sites shown formation flights of Akinci and Kizilelma. Considering this company run by Sultan Erdo son in law, it is also part of political move by Sultan Erdo showing his Turkiye Independent strategic cloud.

Still say what you want on Sultan Erdo, his push on more independent Turkish MIC shown considerable results. It is now still be seen how they are going to tackle one Achilles heels, the propulsion tech.

 

[Ananda]

This is new short video in YouTube shown 3 focus project of TAI manned program. As Baykar now got support for Unmanned Aircraft, Manned aircraft still come out from TAI. This video shown focus on ATAK2 helicopter, Hurjet LIFT/LCA and TFX MRCA gen 5 fighter jet.

So far eventough the prototype of Hurjet and Kizilelma reported using similar Ukrainian Motorsich Turbofan, but as my previous post shown. Turkish Tusas has ambition on much of production run will going to use TF1400 for ATAK2 and TF6000 for both Hurjet and Kizilelma.

Will see how far their aero propulsion indigenous investment can fill in ATAK2, Hurjet and Kizilelma production line. Turkiye hope for those products can be competitive in Market. However they know also without sufficient improvements on engine tech, their effort to export (thus provide enough market for production line) will always run in to licensing problem.

Question on TFX engine which in my opinion will remain problematic. TF6000 not mature yet, and TFX going to need bigger engine. Despite all the talk on Turkiye media and forums on TF10000, this going to depend much on maturity of TF6000 tech.

Thus they still need most likely either Euro or US engines for initial batches of TFX. With difficulties they are facing getting export license on ATAK1 due to US engine, it will going to dampen initial ambitions as independent aerospace MIC players that Sultan Erdo dream.

 

[Ananda]

Another Video on Hurjet, and shown how Hurjet concept basically similar with Korean T-50 which is know evolve to FA-50 LCA. Anyway this is come from Turkish state media, and being used by Sultan Erdo to shown off gis MIC achievement.

Sultan Erdo from Turkish media and forums predicted going to face toughest re-election campaign. So achievement in Turkiye MIC being shown as his main achievement but also implied warnings that his and his political allies are the one that can guarantee Turkiye defense independence. This is also means Turkiye independence foreign policies.

Well seems Sultan Erdo do going to face tough re-election campaigns. Recent on going situation in region, Russia-Ukraine, Armenia-Azerbaijan, EU-US deterioration relationships with Turkiye, all this seems being use by Sultan Erdo as justification on huge Investments in MIC. Will this be enough ?

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1651658448239468550

Previously their aim for ATAK2 is something that around Apache size. Now they are aim on larger one. Talking from lesson in Ukraine-Russian war, or simply want to outdone Apache?

Question will be in the end are they (Turkiye Tusas) able to build larger engine in time? Previously TF-1400 that aim for ATAK2, but with increasing size and dimension, they need to build bigger one. It is not first time Turkiye increase requirements which means increasing the specs then previous design. Not an efficient way in my opinion on running efficient MIC.

 

[Ananda]

Sultan Erdo officially name TFX as Kaan. The ceremony (clearly prepared to shown Sultan Erdo achievements in aerospace MIC for incoming elections), officially also shown Hurjet LIFT/LCA.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1664001633200513024

Ukrainian Ambassador clearly shown hope for Turkiye to continue working with Motorsich for turbofan development. Motorsich doesn't yet have engine class that can work with KAAN, which for this proto using F110 same with what Turkish F-16 use. Shown what being expected that Ukrainian really put hope with Turkiye to help them revive their MIC.

Got to give something on Sultan Erdo, right now he is the only one that both Zelensky and Putin call "dear friend", even tough basically he is playing both ways. Something that none of other NATO leaders have that kind of card. Which is why even some western analysts see he is the biggest card that can bring Kyiv and Moscow on table, when the time comes.

 

[John Fedup]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1664001633200513024

Ukrainian Ambassador clearly shown hope for Turkiye to continue working with Motorsich for turbofan development. Motorsich doesn't yet have engine class that can work with KAAN, which for this proto using F110 same with what Turkish F-16 use. Shown what being expected that Ukrainian really put hope with Turkiye to help them revive their MIC.

Got to give something on Sultan Erdo, right now he is the only one that both Zelensky and Putin call "dear friend", even tough basically he is playing both ways. Something that none of other NATO leaders have that kind of card. Which is why even some western analysts see he is the biggest card that can bring Kyiv and Moscow on table, when the time comes.

Would like a fly on the wall listening to what Putin and Zelensky really think about Sultan Erdo. The reverse would also be interesting. I think Xi might be the ultimate card (assuming stuff doesn’t hit the fan over Taiwan).

 

[ASSAIL]

Few days old, from Baykar own sites shown formation flights of Akinci and Kizilelma. Considering this company run by Sultan Erdo son in law, it is also part of political move by Sultan Erdo showing his Turkiye Independent strategic cloud.

Still say what you want on Sultan Erdo, his push on more independent Turkish MIC shown considerable results. It is now still be seen how they are going to tackle one Achilles heels, the propulsion tech.

Latest video of the “Akinci” on fb today, impressive capability to this untrained eye.

Combat Choppers

A Leap in Innovation: Turkish AKINCI-B Drone’s Newest Capabilities Stun the World (Video) ‎

www.facebook.com

Go to the video in the last pic.

 

[Ananda]

Got this photo from RupprechtDeino X, but also see this image circulating on Turkiye forums. Seems this image of ANKA3 first flight being accompany by Hurkus trainer. Thus this is not small drones, and seems indicating to be UCAV as TAI put before in media.

It is if not mistaken intended later on to be using their ingenous engine of TF6000 class.

TEI Begins Prototype Manufacturing of TEI-TF6000, Türkiye`s Most Powerful Turbofan Engine

We present the special interview with the General Manager & CEO of TEI, which we held on October 7 during the İstanbul Air Show 2022, where he talked about the TEI-TF6000 Engine, the most powerful turbofan developed in our country to date, with a dry thrust of 6,000 lbf.

www.defenceturkey.com

Sultan Erdo do getting traction on building Turkiye own MIC. Another video from Turkiye channel X.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1740284485491650939

 

[Ananda]

Official video on the ANKA3 first flight.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1740357805301731716

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Official video on the ANKA3 first flight.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1740357805301731716

Thank you for sharing.
I have the feeling that the development of the Anka 3 goes much faster than the Okhotnik-B or Elang Hitam.

 

[swerve]

I think it's due to solid support from the state, reflected in steady funding, the customers having a clear idea of what they want, & TAI being responsive to the customers - driven by the owners & customers being inextricably entangled. There've been no changes of government or policy to disrupt progress

 

[Ananda]

The F110 the drive article put, as far as I see from Turkiye media and forums is still speculation. Speculation that come from Turkiye licensing agreement on F110 production for their F-16

Turkey Seeks F-16 Engines from US for Domestic Fighter Jet

Turkey has asked the US for permission to co-produce GE Aerospace engines used in F-16 jets, with an aim to deploy them for its own domestically produced fighter plane.

www.bloomberg.com

Turkey seeking US permission to produce F-16 fighter engines domestically

The GE Aerospace F110 engine powers the Lockheed Martin F-16s used by the Turkish air force, as well as prototypes of Ankara's domestically-produced Kaan fighter.

www.flightglobal.com

Seems there's some progress for US to give license manufacturing for F110. The choice of F110 not only put similar engine for F-16 and TFX, but means also standarsisation of their AF front line fleet on one type of engine. This is also shown TFX is actually close to F-15 class.

Turbofan engine is the Achilles heel for Turkiye aero industry. Tusas working on indigenous solution with Ukrainian Motor Sich, so far seems going to be solution for their Drones, Helicopter and Hurjet LIFT. However will not be the answer for their F-16 and TFX. Despite some talk on Tusas and Motor Sich potential work for that class of Turbofan, I believe it will be problematic. Motor Sich is not Saturn that create F110 Soviet rival AL-31. Thus they have to get back with US for the solution. Sultan Erdo must bite his ego to deal with US on this one.

Despite the outside appearance that shown similarities lines with Korean KFX, but with F-110 as engine clearly TFX is bigger Fighter then KFX that relies on GE F-414. Personally before I do have doubt and underestimating Turkiye ambition for TFX simply due to Turkiye economic size and problem. Thus despite all his political antics, Sultan Erdo do manage so far to push Turkiye MIC to the level that many outsiders see impossible before.

Turkiye has no choice to get back with US. They have problem with German that block Eurojet transfer, despite UK willingness. Thus they don't have alternative for F-16. Their spites with Frenchie, and Frenchie buddies attitude with Greece, clearly ommit Rafale. Clearly they're not going to grovel for Gripen, despite now they have turf card toward Sweden NATO admission. Getting Su-35 clearly will be too much for their own NATO future, which even Sultan Erdo understand that.

Thus despite their ambition on TFX for independence on Fighter program, US still have a card to bargain with Turkiye. Tusas will need much more time to come out with Turbofan on that class, even with Motor Sich help.

 

[swerve]

Sweden can't provide much jet engine technology. IIRC Sweden designs & makes some parts, but doesn't produce complete engines nowadays, & has never designed complete engines, just modified & licence-built British & US engines.

 

[Ananda]

US approves F-16 fighter jet sale to Turkey, F-35s to Greece after Turkey OKs Sweden's entry to NATO

The Biden administration has approved the sale of F-16 fighters jets to Turkey following the Turkish government's ratification this week of Sweden's membership in NATO

abcnews.go.com

US agree for 40 new F-16V for Turkey plus 79 upgrade kit (I believe for V configuration) for USD 23 bio. The value is very high, and some in Turkish media and online forums, speculate the value also include further license manufacturing for F-110 Turbofan. Turkey need that engine for their own 5th Gen KAAN.

Add:

The deal not include further F110 licensing agreement. However seems enough armaments and quite substantial upgrade programs.

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Not really surprising the deal being approve at same time for 40 F-35A to Greece for USD 8.3 bio. Much lower value, but it is for same F-35 type that Turkiye being kick out before.

Greece – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) Aircraft | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

The deal off course not taking by graciousness by some in Turkish media and public, as they believe Turkiye should fight for F35. However the way I look, Sultan Erdo administration seems not really care for F-35 anymore. Seems they are now pressing for more advance F-16 and even refurbishment F-16 program (V standard or their own upgrade package) to make around 300 F-16 force update. Thus they are more focus to build their own KAAN rather then F-35 for their future fleet.

 

[Ananda]

First flight of KAAN being accompany by F-16. Not much detail yet.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1760235988750680501