The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[crest]

View attachment 53732
I wonder if that is really a good use of drones.

Well it countered a equal number of Ukrainian drones in return. Honestly drones achieve alot even if any one does nothing itself. The shere quantity of them cause formations to be split. Defences to be abandoned armour to held back. Frontal assault suicidal as any form of suprise is almost impossible to achieve. And the pts levels of soldiers is probably going to be thru the roof. The stress and danger levels are basically like WW1 trench warfare as from all reports dosnt matter were you go you hear drones overhead

 

[rsemmes]

You are not formatting your posts correctly. Without selective quoting for each point/counter-point, the reader is left wondering what you are talking about. There is no context.
Here is an example of how it should work:
Rsemmes: " To achieve what exactly, that is what I wonder. After Robotine and Kursk, he is going to get what?"
VASS: Achieve ? Not be a RU puppet state. Not be anchored to Putin. Is this surprising ?
Rsemmes: " I cannot remember that line from Istanbul."
This is better. However, there is still a problem. Even with proper quoting, the reader is left what you are talking about. Case in point, you ask what Z hopes to achieve, and I respond with a perfectly reasonable "not be a RU puppet state". Point, counter-point. Your response about Istanbul is obtuse. I suspect your context is "what does Z hope to achieve after the 2022 Istanbul talks", but my answer is the same. Whether or not "being a puppet state" relates to "Istanbul" leaves us trying to interpret your stream of consciousness.

To make sure you understand (for this specific point) - UKR keeps fighting so as to not be a satellite, an extension, a Belarus-South. Thats why they fight, even though they are losing ground. They dont want to be Russian.

Reformat your post correctly and we can try again.

Really?
Do you remember what you said? I posted a snip to remind you what you said, you can always click to expand...
I posted:
"Zelenski is quite happy to keep himself "in the fight", after Robotine, after Kursk and for the next 3 years (talking to Tusk). To achieve what exactly, that is what I wonder. After Robotine and Kursk, he is going to get what?"
And then you go with "puppet state"?
I am talking about two failed military operations, what military solutions is Ukraine trying to implement when its situation is getting worse? Instead of keeping himself in the fight, he should be working to seat at the table right now (like... yesterday) and get as much as he can from his benefactors to achieve the better (actual) terms possible. Those are going to be worse now, in Istanbul, Putin was ready to return all of the south of the Dnieper area; I think it's too late for that now.

"Thats why they fight, even though they are losing ground. They don't want to be Russian."
The Torygraph: "100.000 young Ukrainians left the country in two months"

Periódico Daily Telegraph (Reino Unido). Periódicos de Reino Unido. Toda la prensa de hoy. Kiosko.net

They don't want to fight. Zelenski already had that (not a Belarus-South) in Istanbul. Terms, not "maximalist initial positions"; what you actually get when you sign an agreement.

 

[rsemmes]

Of course UKR is not completely innocent, and RU is not completely guilty. We all can read various sources of information. What is problematic is trying to morally equate UKR and RU. RU and UKR might hit civilian targets, but RU makes a habit of it.

Trying to what?
It is not about the "moral considerations", it is about the hypocrisy about those moral considerations. Ukraine blew up a dam, we point our finger at Russia for blowing up a dam.
See the difference?

 

[rsemmes]

Well, in that case, the RU army should be in Kiev tomorrow.
The Istanbul terms were far worse.

Peace negotiations in the Russo-Ukrainian war (2022–present) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Highlights:
RU keeps what it has
RU get those parts of territories it doesnt have, but claims (Donetsk, etc)
UKR is contractually obligated to never join NATO
UKR disarms
All sanctions against RU are lifted
These are not peace terms, they are surrender terms. Czechoslovakia 1938, again.
What can UKR do about it ? Kill enough Russians to make a difference (difficult). Do enough damage to the RU economy to make a difference (not as tough).
The west should enable UKR to defend itself, to put an end to Putins expansionist dreams. Just like we helped Nationalist China in 1941, South Korea in 1950, Britain in 1940, western Europe in the cold war, etc etc.

You saw the "broad terms" right?
I don't think giving back 'South of the Dnieper' is "worse". (I may be wrong.)
Again, "We shouldn't confuse the initial statements with the actual terms of a peace agreement."
I guess that in your 1938, US is Poland, taking minerals instead of Teschen. No moral consideration, just facts.
Can Ukraine get enough Ukrainians killed (and out of the country) to achieve the collapse of Ukraine? We'll see in 3 years. How much damage can Ukraine take? How much money is Ukraine going to get? It does not depend on Ukraine.
Like the West should have helped Iraq from the US invasion? Should have helped Iran for the Iraqi invasion? Again, no moral considerations, just interests. Sorry, facts.

 

[rsemmes]

If you are permanently stuck clutching your pearls in fear of what Putin might do, you might as well demobilize your military and hand your wallet over to Putin.
Putin is a rational actor, and is not going to sign his own death warrant over UKR. Russia was just fine (even better, really) before the 2022 invasion, and they can go back to being fine if they can be convinced to leave UKR.
Putin can die tomorrow and we will all be happier.

You do realize that Ukraine is at the receiving end, right? Not us, not Putin.
A long way to any "death warrant" and, anyway, do you know if Trump is going to sign his "death warrant" over Ukraine? Are we, on our own? Do you see only one "death warrant", only one possibility? Care to explain to us what is that "death warrant" exactly. How long is going to take and if there's going to be any escalation?
(Just to remind you, I posted: "Reaction could mean many things." Meaning, I don't know what, but I know Putin will decide what, not Zelenski.)
Do you know who would replace Putin? Do you know what that leader would do?