The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[ngatimozart]

taking the RU MOD Line? no, dont attack me personally please, am a neutral, i don't care about Russia or Ukraine, i like to follow war and discuss military developments, that said, most of you on here tow the Nato line and bash everything Russian, like Russia hasn't done anything of military value since the begining of this war. this is war, no body is holy, forget that principle and morals thing, if you are not from Ukraine and you fighting there for money or getting paid, then your a mercenary. simple

That's a very simplistic argument.

You are making claims about posters on here that are untrue.

We don't tow the NATO line as you put it. This is a defence forum for defence professionals that allows the general public to participate in the discussions.

Many of the defence professionals here have served in various militaries around the world and not many NATO militaries are represented here.

Russia committed an unprovoked act of wanton aggression against Ukraine, an independent sovereign nation. That is against the UN Charter and international law. It is also a war crime. That is why we are not happy with Russia.

Ukraine has a right under the UN Charter and international law to defend itself. Part of that right is to request assistance from friends and allies to aid it. That it has done and aid provided to it by other nations is just that aid.

The Ukrainian government formed a Foreign Legion in order to help with its war. That is also a legal right and if the foreigners who are members of the Foreign Legion, fight in the uniform of Ukraine and are sworn to Ukrainian service for the term of their enlistment, they are not mercenaries. They are bona fide members of the Ukrainian military, and as such are entitled to the full protections of the Geneva Conventions. Any Foreign Legion personnel captured by Russian or separatist forces who are not treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and the rules of wars, are war crimes victims. Foreign legions are an acceptable part of militaries and the French Republic still has its Foreign Legion.

You claim that you are a neutral but you certainly don't act like one. You act very much like a Russian supporter. We have no problems with people who support Russia, however we do require them to abide by our rules and provide reliable reputable sources to back their claims. We do not accept any official Russian or Ukrainian sources, nor do we accept propaganda from either side.

We automatically ban trolls without warning and one long term member has already accused you of being a troll. Best you prove to the Moderators that you aren't.

 

[tonnyc]

this is war, no body is holy, forget that principle and morals thing, if you are not from Ukraine and you fighting there for money or getting paid, then your a mercenary. simple

That's nonsense. Sure, if someone is fighting for money you can call them a mercenary but the second part about anyone getting paid is a mercenary is bullshit. What, a Russian who joined the Ukrainian Armed Force because he thinks Putin is bad is not supposed to get any salary or else he's a mercenary? Fact: any work, including soldiering, has to be compensated. The soldier, even if he's foreign, still has a family to support and still needs to save for a life after he's done soldiering. Getting paid doesn't make him a mercenary. It just makes him a regular soldier.

 

[jref]

What's the gray? They're engaging in full scale combat action for money.

Technically all of their professional personnel are fighting for money.
But are we clear on where exactly Wagner sits in in RU MOD chain of command? Given Russia isn't the U.S. where anyone with overseas combat experience can just decide one day to go private with a handful of his combat buddies and choose freely from a score of federal contracts and given the level of integration between Wagner and Russian regulars, are we even sure Prigozhin is still a merc of just another wing of RU MOD?

 

[mist]

That's a very simplistic argument.

You are making claims about posters on here that are untrue.

We don't tow the NATO line as you put it. This is a defence forum for defence professionals that allows the general public to participate in the discussions.

Many of the defence professionals here have served in various militaries around the world and not many NATO militaries are represented here.

Russia committed an unprovoked act of wanton aggression against Ukraine, an independent sovereign nation. That is against the UN Charter and international law. It is also a war crime. That is why we are not happy with Russia.

Ukraine has a right under the UN Charter and international law to defend itself. Part of that right is to request assistance from friends and allies to aid it. That it has done and aid provided to it by other nations is just that aid.

The Ukrainian government formed a Foreign Legion in order to help with its war. That is also a legal right and if the foreigners who are members of the Foreign Legion, fight in the uniform of Ukraine and are sworn to Ukrainian service for the term of their enlistment, they are not mercenaries. They are bona fide members of the Ukrainian military, and as such are entitled to the full protections of the Geneva Conventions. Any Foreign Legion personnel captured by Russian or separatist forces who are not treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and the rules of wars, are war crimes victims. Foreign legions are an acceptable part of militaries and the French Republic still has its Foreign Legion.

You claim that you are a neutral but you certainly don't act like one. You act very much like a Russian supporter. We have no problems with people who support Russia, however we do require them to abide by our rules and provide reliable reputable sources to back their claims. We do not accept any official Russian or Ukrainian sources, nor do we accept propaganda from either side.

We automatically ban trolls without warning and one long term member has already accused you of being a troll. Best you prove to the Moderators that you aren't.

i have read threads on this site for more than 10 years before i decided to register, so i really appreciate the input and knowledge that defence professionals and ex military share on here. i know lots of you on here are not happy with Russia but that's not my problem. am i happy with Russia? NO. am i angry with Russia? NO. why will i be? what they are doing now has been done by others without punishment. am i angry at the west, NO. am wondering why we haven't sent in regular Nato troops to F the Russians up once and for all.. i want to see the show down, there's just too much talk on this topic on lot's of forums.

i read the rules and regulations very well and i have not gone against them, the long term member called me a Russian troll because he didn't like what i posted and like you said, many of you here are not happy with Russia, he called me a Russian troll which am not. the thing is, i don't care about Russia and i don't care about Ukraine, i just follow this war, and i must tell you that am surprised that Russia is still standing.. i thought Russia will be done in a few weeks after all the powerful sanctions start kicking in.

the advantage of being neutral is that you can appreciate any of the parties that do anything spectacular in the military, economical and political sphere while the war grinds on. like the way we think in the west that Russia is losing and their economy is in tatars, military in rags and so on, if you talk to Africans and some in Asia, they will tell you that Russia is strong, Russia alone is fighting half of the world and it's still standing. some of them pray that Putin shouldn't die in his sleep or get assassinated. this war has divided the world some what. to call someone that airs his opinion about a certain event a Russian troll is wrong, personally i think every view matter, if am wrong on something i will be happy to be corrected. nobody knows it all

 

[vikingatespam]

Given the scope and scale of the war effort, whose resources is Wagner using? Where do their tanks and IFVs come from?

Where are the western organizations (Blackwater, etc) operating as closed units, with heavy equipment, with the purpose of frontline combat ? Are there contractors doing training ? Probably.

 

[vikingatespam]

I am going express what might be a very unpopular opinion. The Azov Regiment are Nazis. Well technically not Nazis but certainly they share much the same ideology. They have claimed to have depoliticised since being absorbed into the Ukraine National Guard but all the videos I have seen with them wearing their Nazi inspired paraphernalia and tattoos would seem to tell a different story. Even those who fought along side them will pretty openly tell you that they are Nazis.

What % of those Azov guys are wearing symbols or tats ? Of those, what % actually know what they mean ? 1% ? 5% ?

The only way out of this may be if Russia and the Ukraine agree to peace terms perhaps ceding territory currently held by Russia. I told you that this would be an unpopular opinion. The alternative could be a group of nuclear armed Nazis in control of Russia.

Crimea ? Sure, I dont see Crimea going to the UKR. However, if you are talking about the parts that RU stole since Feb.22 there isnt much chance of a peace deal happening under the current conditions.

 

[vikingatespam]

taking the RU MOD Line? no, dont attack me personally please, am a neutral, i don't care about Russia or Ukraine, i like to follow war and discuss military developments, that said, most of you on here tow the Nato line and bash everything Russian, like Russia hasn't done anything of military value since the begining of this war. this is war, no body is holy, forget that principle and morals thing, if you are not from Ukraine and you fighting there for money or getting paid, then your a mercenary. simple

Maybe the NATO line happens to be technically correct ?

RU is the aggressor
RU military performance has generally been dismal
RU is dragging the war out
RU is suffering immensely because of it

Which of the above do you disagree with ?

Were American volunteers who fought in WW2 before the US entered the war "mercenaries" ?

Wagner is in the business of heavy front line combat. infantry formations, tanks, artillery, etc. They wouldnt be there if the kremlin did not pay them to be there. Individual volunteers that go to UKR to fight for UKR are not in the same category.

 

[vikingatespam]

am wondering why we haven't sent in regular Nato troops to F the Russians up once and for all.. i want to see the show down, there's just too much talk on this topic on lot's of forums.

Escalation. NATO and the US have taken pains to not escalate the situation out of hand. If NATO were to roll into UKR tomorrow without some sort of red line being crossed (WMD, etc) then that risks escalating into a nuclear exchange.

Immediately giving top of the line western gear to the UKR (tanks, planes, cruise missiles, etc) right away risks escalation.

I do -NOT- want to see a nuclear exchange, no matter how "limited". At the same, we should not be blackmailed by vague RU threats. RU is not under some threat to its existence. UKR is.

the advantage of being neutral is that you can appreciate any of the parties that do anything spectacular in the military, economical and political sphere while the war grinds on. like the way we think in the west that Russia is losing and their economy is in tatars, military in rags and so on,

Nobody is winning.

UKR is losing
RU is losing
the global economy is losing

Everyone is losing because Putin refuses to fold. He just keeps raising. There is nothing on the horizon that I can see that indicates this war will be over soon. The UKR are willing to fight and the RU are willing to shovel in more poorly trained, poorly equipped mobiks. Stalemate.

 

[Rob c]

submit that this war is fully in the interests of the United States. It ties Russia to a no-win war, drains resources, and one that has effectively united the Europeans against Russia. For the EU having the war is against their interests. But if the war is to happen, it is certainly within the interests of the EU to not have Russia win it.

This is true now that it has started, but it would have more in the wests interests for it not to have started at all. It is certainly in the EU's that Russia does not win it. But this is the case with just about any war that there are non combatants which will either gain or lose depending on the outcome. To class this as a proxy war on those grounds would mean that just about any war could be classed as a proxy war.

Ohh come on, there's western geopolitical interest on this. Why do you think USSR and US fighting proxy war in Afghanistan. There's no significant interest (if we talk economics) from both of them. They fight proxy war to each other on geopolitical interest.

Western powers provide substantial supplies and money to prop up Ukraine even before 2022 invasion. This is all part of geopolitical power strugle. Again this is going to back on debate why Nato expansion to East happen. For helping Eastern European securities or Russian Containment. We can debate this for years, as already seen this on early this threads.

However don't talk as if West has no interest in here. They have geopolitical and security interest in here. Do you think the avarage euro zone publics will give this damn about this war if this not happen in their front door ?

This is even more proxy war for most Euro zone then Afghanistan, Korean, Vietnam or other war that happen outside Western door step.

I agree that now that the war has started it is in the wests interest that Russia does not win it, But it was more in the wests interests that it did not happen at all.
As to the Geopolitical struggle, in this case it is clearly a case of Russian expansionism. and the wars you mention Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan all originated initially with either Soviet or communist aggression. However this does not make the West blame free, particularly the larger powers of both sides have been guilty of unnecessary aggression against other smaller nations. My view is that to label this as a proxy war is an attempt to justify Russian aggression against an other sovereign state.
In my view the use by the large powers of force against other sovereign states to gain in there own interests is unacceptable and to try and justify this type of aggression by flimsy excuses is also not in the interests of world order.
I would agree that there are some of the aspects of a proxy here but it is well short of full the complete picture, but as I have said before, this would be the case with most wars. As I have said before that to provide help does not make you a proxy and Ukraine asked for help and it was provided as was their right to do so.
The world would be a better place if the so called Geopolitical struggle died as quickly as possible.
I will repeat that any wars there are outside interest, but to provide help does not make anyone a proxy. The main interests in this case are with the combatants and outside interests are very secondary to this.

 

[Big Slick]

that's what i don't get, why not send in Nato to finish this thing once and for all, we are already playing Russian roulette with the Russians in Ukraine. the Russians won't let go until something very drastic happens to them

What justification would NATO have for directly entering the war? Article 5? UN authority? Given the gravity of entering into combat with a Russian army wouldn’t the US congress need to consider a declaration of war per the Constitution? Who believes there is public support in the US for such an action?

 

[Hone C]

that's what i don't get, why not send in Nato to finish this thing once and for all, we are already playing Russian roulette with the Russians in Ukraine. the Russians won't let go until something very drastic happens to them

As has already been pointed out, this would inevitably lead to a nuclear exchange. That would indeed 'finish this thing once and for all'.

 

[swerve]

I agree that now that the war has started it is in the wests interest that Russia does not win it, But it was more in the wests interests that it did not happen at all.

This. In spades. It's a nightmare for Europe. A disaster, that's costing us dear, & not just in money: old people will die this winter because of the effect on fuel supplies & prices. Governments have been humiliated. Any argument that "the west" wanted this war, or saw (& sees) it as anything other than a disaster is batshit insane. There are parties that benefit, but they are aren't & weren't in control, & they're enormously outnumbered by the losers.

A Russian failure to win is a terrible outcome for us. We're suffering short term costs now & there will be tremendous long-term losses. But a Russian victory is much, much worse.

As to the Geopolitical struggle, in this case it is clearly a case of Russian expansionism.

Absolutely. The Russian leadership don't even try much to hide it. See the denial of Ukrainian ethnicity, nationality & language, for example.

 

[vikingatespam]

What is correct to Nato and the West may be wrong to Russia and the rest of the world. have you ever sat down to think about that?

"What is correct for the Allies may be wrong for Nazi Germany. Have you ever sat down to think about that ?"
"What is correct for South Korea may be wrong for North Korea. Have you ever sat down to think about that ?"
"What is correct for the Taiwan may be wrong for China. Have you ever sat down to think about that ?"

I reject the moral relativism. This is Putins choice. UKR was invaded because RU wants a pliable buffer state (see: Belorussia) and to expand his borders.

This has nothing to do with NATO expansion. If Putin cared about NATO expansion, he wouldnt of worked so hard to get Sweden and Finland to join. NATO has not ever been an offensive threat. NATO was dying on the vine from lack of perceived mission and very low military expenditures. That has sure changed now, hasnt it ?

All those countries who have joined NATO have done so out of a fear of RU. Which appears now to be pretty good reason.

WW2 is totally different from this war, Putin is not trying to conquer the world, hes having a very hard time in eastern Ukraine like you point out.

Sure, he just wants UKR, then its Transnistria, then its Moldova, then we get another bullshit round of Putin formenting breakaway "republics" in other regions just like he did for the DPR and LPR.....

The west didnt react much to Putin stealing Crimea. Well this time the reaction is different. Putin can call it off or we all have to suffer the fallout (metaphorically, hopefully) from his decisions.

 

[vikingatespam]

that's what i don't get, why not send in Nato to finish this thing once and for all, we are already playing Russian roulette with the Russians in Ukraine. the Russians won't let go until something very drastic happens to them

The RU will let go once the price becomes too obviously high. If the RU army collapses. If Putin dies under mysterious conditions (falls out of a hospital window....) If the RU economy starts to collapse.

Otherwise, no NATO direct intervention unless a red line is crossed, such as RU WMD being used, or mass atrocities.

 

[vikingatespam]

in the long run, who do you think this stalemate will favour. Russia or Ukraine?

Neither. The RU economy is suffering badly. They lost 700,000 citizens who fled. The army is shown to be terrible shape. Vast stocks of reserve materials have been spent. The UKR economy is tanking (but supported by the west). The world is suffering from all of this. No one is winning.

Will the political will of the West to spend money on UKR fail before the RU economy fails ? No one knows.

 

[mist]

What justification would NATO have for directly entering the war? Article 5? UN authority? Given the gravity of entering into combat with a Russian army wouldn’t the US congress need to consider a declaration of war per the Constitution? Who believes there is public support in the US for such an action?

same justification used to supply arms and sanctions, maybe war crimes. it's clear Nato is avoiding direct conflict with Russia but the more this war continues the threat of direct war with Russia is very high

 

[STURM]

Otherwise, no NATO direct intervention unless a red line is crossed, such as RU WMD being used, or mass atrocities.

This really remains to be seen. Direct NATO intervention totally changes the calculus and as much as they would like the Ukraine emerge victorious; direct conflict with NATO isn't in the interests of the various countries which comprise NATO.

The RU economy is suffering badly. They lost 700,000 citizens who fled. The army is shown to be terrible shape. Vast stocks of reserve materials have been spent.

Yes so we keep hearing. Just like how for months we kept being reminded about a Russia which is low on missiles and other consumables; an ill equipped and demoralised army; Russian weapons which are apparently all inferior to Western equivalents; Russian citizens who don't support the war; etc. Yet Russia is still at it and there no are signs that it's giving up: that Putin is going anywhere or that the Russian will experience a modern day version of Tannenberg.

Jugding by all we're being told; its a wonder the Russians aren't conducting delaying actions in the streets of Ulan Ude or Omsk by now.

 

[vikingatespam]

This really remains to be seen. Direct NATO intervention totally changes the calculus and as much as they would like the Ukraine emerge victorious; direct conflict with NATO isn't in the interests of the various countries which comprise NATO.

Yes so we keep hearing. Just like how for months we kept being reminded about a Russia which is low on missiles and other consumables; an ill equipped and demoralised army; Russian weapons which are apparently all inferior to Western equivalents; Russian citizens who don't support the war; etc. Yet Russia is still at it and there no are signs that it's giving up: that Putin is going anywhere or that the Russian will experience a modern day version of Tannenberg.

RU can take the body-blows of the things I mentioned and still fight. No one thinks the UKR will be marching into Kursk, much less Moscow.

While its difficult to find unshakable evidence of some of these things, we have the indirect evidence of these RU problems:

If the RU army is doing well, why are they recruiting from prisons, massively increasing sign up bonuses, and bringing back cashiered generals ?
If the RU airforce is so much better why is RU afraid to go much past the forward edge of battle ?
if the RU navy is so much better.....oh **** it, you know what I say - "MOSKVA"
If the RU economy is sanctions proof why is the admitted inflation rate 12% or so and the admitted economic expansion -3% or so ?
If the RU have so many missiles why are they buying drones from iran ? Why are they using missiles that were manufactured in the last month or so
If RU as so many tanks, why are they refurbing T-62 ?
How many videos from RU do you need to see about mobiks who have to buy thier own supplies or are issued materials from the cold war ?

None of this is in contention. The RU military is a fucking mess, but its big enough to keep stumbling along, just like on June 23, 1941.

Jugding by all we're being told; its a wonder the Russians aren't conducting delaying actions in the streets of Ulan Ude or Omsk by now.

Nobody here is claiming that UKR is going to take Moscow. A UKR victory is assymetric compared to a RU victory.

@vikingatespam Txt altered. Obscene language is not acceptable. Don't do it again or you will be penalised.

Ngatimozart

 

[John Fedup]

Neither. The RU economy is suffering badly. They lost 700,000 citizens who fled. The army is shown to be terrible shape. Vast stocks of reserve materials have been spent. The UKR economy is tanking (but supported by the west). The world is suffering from all of this. No one is winning.

Will the political will of the West to spend money on UKR fail before the RU economy fails ? No one knows.

No one is winning, not exactly, I think China could be. The amount of munitions and treasure expended in Ukraine makes a Western response to a Chinese invasion more difficult. Nevertheless the West has no choice, Russian aggression cannot stand.

 

[STURM]

Nobody here is claiming that UKR is going to take Moscow. A UKR victory is assymetric compared to a RU victory.

What I was clearly alluding to is this populist narrative we keep hearing for months on end about how bad things are in Russia and how imminent the collapse is. It's a wonder the Ukrainian flag isn't being raised in Vladivostok.

if the RU navy is so much better.....oh fuck it, you know what I say - "MOSKVA

Dear me... Getting a bit too dramatic for my taste. Going to post a link for the Ukrainian national anthem next?

If the RU economy is sanctions proof why is the admitted inflation rate 12% or so and the admitted economic expansion -3% or so ?.

When and where did I say that the "RU economy is sanctions proof".' I'm pretty sure I'm not on hallucinogenics and I'm fully aware of what I said and didn't ...

In simple English which leaves no room for obfuscation; the Russian economy is very bad but contrary to the impression being given; its nowhere near to collapsing or reaching a point where the Russians have to cease or severely reduce the level of ops due to economic reasons ...

If the RU have so many missiles why are they buying drones from iran ? Why are they using missiles that were manufactured in the last month or so

Read my posts again.... Did I say that Russian weren't low? I questioned the popular narrative that since March Russia has be so low on stocks that it would soon run out. Do you have any links which show that Russia has indeed run out of missiles or that it's industry has been so hard hit by sanctions that it's relying totally on Iran for missiles?

How many videos from RU do you need to see about mobiks who have to buy thier own supplies or are issued materials from the cold war

Thank you but save it for some one else.
I'm fully aware of how bad things are with the Russians and I'm not disputing it. If I require reminders about how bad or dire things are; lots of places to go to; namely the daily reports released by the Brit MOD which sound like they're written by Zelensky himself.