That's not fighting.
If I refuse to sell to you, I'm not fighting you. If you attack someone & I give that person a weapon to fight back with, I'm still not fighting you.
Words matter. Truth matters.
The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
If I refuse to sell to you, I'm not fighting you. If you attack someone & I give that person a weapon to fight back with, I'm still not fighting you.
Words matter. Truth matters.
2007yellow430
Active Member
He’s a Russian Troll. Once again they ignore reality, but it will catch up with them. If they are stupid enough to actually attack a nato member, reality will come quickly.
Art
Russian troll? when u don't agree with someone then they are Russian trolls. my last post was about Nato mercenaries dying in Ukraine. if Nato weapons are killing Russians in Ukraine and Nato intelligence supporting Ukraine on all levels, then on the economic front, we have full blown aggression.. is that not war?
yes but this time your not only arming, your training, structuring and giving out my locations and where about anytime i leave my front door. how long will you do this for me to realize that your the main threat i face? Truth matters
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6,125
NATO C4ISR matters. You can call it fighting or not, but if those AEW and ELINT birds were Ukrainian, they'd be destroyed. Instead they're providing Ukraine with vital information without which this would be a very different fight.
NATO is not actively fighting Russia. This is delusional. NATO is engaging in a proxy war. Claiming otherwise is silly. There are issues with NATO involvement here, but they are not what you claim.
I agree that this has turned into a proxy war of sorts, due to the significant NATO support of Ukraine, however It was a Russian invasion which started it all. My reasoning for saying that it is a proxy war of sorts is the limiting of the types of weapons that NATO has supplied to Ukraine in that they have not supplied weapons that Ukraine could strike Russia with. This has enabled Russia to strike Ukrainian Infrastructure at will without Ukraine being able to mount the same level of attacks on Russian Infrastructure. This means that while NATO has given significant support they not entirely leveled the playing field.
This is an over emotional statement as while the western world has supplied significant equipment to Ukraine the reality is that the majority of equipment that the Ukrainians are using is still of soviet era manufacture and the David and Goliath, you have the wrong way around as Ukraine is doing all the fighting with its own army and air force, both of which are significantly smaller than the Russian counterparts and it was Russia that invaded Ukraine, not the other way around..
I would remind you that in the early 1990's Russia signed an agreement with other signatories, that they would guarantee the integrity Ukraine's boarders in return for Ukraine returning all it's Soviet era nuclear weapons. This agreement ,Russia has now broken twice and had this agreement not been in place and Ukraine still had those weapons, the question would be, would this invasion happened at all as with 30years to achieve it I think the Ukrainians would have figured out how to activate them.
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It would appear that Russia has sent some 200 new t-90 tanks to the Luhansk front, normal production of the t-90 was over 100 hundred a year but Russia earlier in the war increased production there was speculation that sanctions would impact their production
Russia delivers 200 T-90M tanks to Pro-Russian forces of Lugansk People's Republic | Ukraine - Russia conflict war 2022 | analysis focus army defence military industry army (armyrecognition.com)
Russia delivers 200 T-90M tanks to Pro-Russian forces of Lugansk People's Republic | Ukraine - Russia conflict war 2022 | analysis focus army defence military industry army (armyrecognition.com)
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
Pumping weapons ? The west has sent 200 or so artillery pieces. No western tanks, no western airplanes. No long range missiles. No ships. No WMD. A handful of anti-missile/air systems. The western equipment aid is relatively modest and controlled.
We arent fighting RU. If the US or NATO was on the ground, it would be long over.
Economically, RU is the David. Which is why its biblically stupid for Putin to keep down this path. The RU economy is spiralling into the toilet and it will take years for them to recover, even assuming they can sell petroleum products to the west again.
The pain for RU can begin to stop tomorrow if Putin decides it. Until then, Putin is driving this collosally stupid war.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
does anyone know the amount of ForeignPolish and US mercenaries KIA, Kharkov region.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
does anyone know the amount of Foreign mercenaries fighting for Ukraine?
Fixed it for you.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
Keep taking the RU MOD line and you identify yourself.
People from other countries go to UKR to fight for principles, not money. Thats why they arent "mercenaries".
NATO has no boots on the ground. When RU and China were supplying weapons to the North Koreans or North Viet., were we at war with RU or China ? Nope.
The only aggression is on the part of RU. If they dont like the pain, then they can fuck off, right this minute back to RU proper.
KipPotapych
Active Member
You definitely need to check your facts and numbers. From U.S. Security Cooperation with Ukraine - United States Department of State
United States security assistance committed to Ukraine includes:
- Over 1,600 Stinger anti-aircraft systems;
- Over 8,500 Javelin anti-armor systems;
- Over 38,000 other anti-armor systems;
- Over 700 Switchblade Tactical Unmanned Aerial Systems;
- 142 155mm Howitzers and up to 924,000 155mm artillery rounds;
- 4,200 precision-guided 155mm artillery rounds;
- 9,000 155mm rounds of Remote Anti-Armor Mine (RAAM) Systems;
- 36 105mm Howitzers and 180,000 105mm artillery rounds;
- 276 Tactical Vehicles to tow weapons;
- 22 Tactical Vehicles to recover equipment;
- 38 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems and ammunition;
- 20 120mm mortar systems and 135,000 120mm mortar rounds;
- 1,500 Tube-Launched, Optically-Tracked, Wire-Guided (TOW) missiles;
- Four Command Post vehicles;
- Eight National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems (NASAMS) and munitions;
- Missiles for HAWK air defense systems;
- Four Avenger air defense systems;
- High-speed Anti-radiation missiles (HARMs);
- 20 Mi-17 helicopters;
- 45 T-72B tanks;
- Over 1,000 Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWVs);
- Over 100 light tactical vehicles;
- 44 trucks and 88 trailers to transport heavy equipment;
- 200 M113 Armored Personnel Carriers;
- 250 M1117 Armored Security Vehicles
- 440 MaxxPro Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles;
- Mine clearing equipment and systems;
- Over 11,000 grenade launchers and small arms;
- Over 104,000,000 rounds of small arms ammunition;
- Over 75,000 sets of body armor and helmets;
- Approximately 1,800 Phoenix Ghost Tactical Unmanned Aerial Systems;
- Laser-guided rocket systems;
- Puma Unmanned Aerial Systems;
- 15 Scan Eagle Unmanned Aerial Systems;
- Two radars for Unmanned Aerial Systems;
- Unmanned Coastal Defense Vessels;
- Over 50 counter-artillery radars;
- Four counter-mortar radars;
- 20 multi-mission radars;
- Counter-Unmanned Aerial Systems;
- Ten air surveillance radars;
- Two harpoon coastal defense systems;
- 58 coastal and riverine patrol boats;
- M18A1 Claymore anti-personnel munitions;
- C-4 explosives, demolition munitions, and demolition equipment for obstacle clearing;
- Obstacle emplacement equipment;
- Tactical secure communications systems;
- Four satellite communications antennas;
- Thousands of night vision devices, surveillance systems, thermal imagery systems, optics, and laser rangefinders;
- Commercial satellite imagery services;
- Explosive ordnance disposal equipment and protective gear;
- Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear protective equipment;
- 100 armored medical treatment vehicles;
- Over 200 generators;
- Medical supplies to include first aid kits, bandages, monitors, and other equipment;
- Electronic jamming equipment;
- Field equipment, cold weather gear, and spare parts;
- Funding for training, maintenance, and sustainment.
The list is incomplete. Plus there is training, invaluable intelligence and coordination, etc. What Feanor mentioned just a few posts above and so on.
if NATO was involved on the ground, things wouldn’t necessarily be over or not necessary the way you like.
The rest probably doesn’t belong in this thread
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Really ?
Ukraine: Foreign fighters ‘offered £1,500 a day to fight against Russia’
Ukrainain officials have claimed 16,000 foreign soldiers have signed up to fight
www.standard.co.uk
Ukraine Welcomes Foreign Fighters Against Russian Invasion - Barnett, Lerner, Karsen, Frankel & Castro, P.A.
Mercenaries and contractors are fighting on both sides of the Russo-Ukrainian War.
www.injuredoverseas.com
This is already a proxy war. For one thing calling this a full NATO vs Russia war is misleading, but on other hand calling those non Ukrainian fighting in this war on Ukraine side as 'pure' freedom fighters is also not reflecting on reality. The war will be over by now if West not pumping resources including money, assets, Intel and 'contractors' to 'supplied' Ukrainian.
NATO help not only giving armament and training to Ukrainian, but also provide venue for some 'contractors' to operate in Ukraine. Some training on Ukrainian themselves will not be enough to operate those assets given to Ukraine, by themselves. There're videos or article granted from Pro Russian telegrams, but coming from Ukrainian soldiers that talk about Polish 'contractors' that operating Poland supplies Krab SPGH for example.
Westerners media claiming foreigners fight on Russian side as 'mercenaries' while foreigners fighting on Ukrainian side as 'freedom fighters'. Come on, things are not white and black in this war, and there're many 'grays' on both sides.
In reality both sides claiming foreigners fighting in their sides as 'freedom fighters' and they're coming 'purely' on their desire to fight as volunteer. Well again both sides full of crap on this matter.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
Im talking heavy equipment. My bad for not clarifying that.You definitely need to check your facts and numbers. From U.S. Security Cooperation with Ukraine - United States Department of State
United States security assistance committed to Ukraine includes:
As of September 9, 2022, nearly 50 Allies and partner countries have provided security assistance to Ukraine. Among their many contributions to Ukraine, Allies and partners have delivered 10 long-range Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (MLRS), 178 long-range artillery systems, nearly 100,000 rounds of long-range artillery ammunition, nearly 250,000 anti-tank munitions, 359 tanks, 629 armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs), 8,214 short-range air defense missiles, and 88 lethal UAVs. Since February 24, Allies and partners worldwide have provided or committed over $13 billion in security assistance.
- big list
The list is incomplete. Plus there is training, invaluable intelligence and coordination, etc. What Feanor mentioned just a few posts above and so on.
if NATO was involved on the ground, things wouldn’t necessarily be over or not necessary the way you like.
The rest probably doesn’t belong in this thread
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
If you want to call it a proxy war, Im not going to argue against that.Really ?
Ukraine: Foreign fighters ‘offered £1,500 a day to fight against Russia’
Ukrainain officials have claimed 16,000 foreign soldiers have signed up to fight
Ukraine Welcomes Foreign Fighters Against Russian Invasion - Barnett, Lerner, Karsen, Frankel & Castro, P.A.
Mercenaries and contractors are fighting on both sides of the Russo-Ukrainian War.www.injuredoverseas.com
This is already a proxy war. For one thing calling this a full NATO vs Russia war is misleading, but on other hand calling those non Ukrainian fighting in this war on Ukraine side as 'pure' freedom fighters is also not reflecting on reality. The war will be over by now if West not pumping resources including money, assets, Intel and 'contractors' to 'supplied' Ukrainian.
NATO help not only giving armament and training to Ukrainian, but also provide venue for some 'contractors' to operate in Ukraine. Some training on Ukrainian themselves will not be enough to operate those assets given to Ukraine, by themselves. There're videos or article granted from Pro Russian telegrams, but coming from Ukrainian soldiers that talk about Polish 'contractors' that operating Poland supplies Krab SPGH for example.
Westerners media claiming foreigners fight on Russian side as 'mercenaries' while foreigners fighting on Ukrainian side as 'freedom fighters'. Come on, things are not white and black in this war, and there're many 'grays' on both sides.
In reality both sides claiming foreigners fighting in their sides as 'freedom fighters' and they're coming 'purely' on their desire to fight as volunteer. Well again both sides full of crap on this matter.
We could argue about Mercs vs freedom fighters, but who invaded who ? Where are all the supposed merc prisoners the RU have claimed to take ? Where are all the tens of thousands of Polish mercs various RU outlets claim ?
The biggest merc organization out there is Wagner. You dont see me bitching about them. If they want to get killed in RU for Putins wet dream, thats on them. But I dont believe for one second all the crap coming from RU outlets unless I can see proof from other sources. I believe the UKR MOD sources only _slightly_ more.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well that's your right on believing more on Western sources. However others can believe from others sources not just Western ones. My point is don't sell the ideas that foreign fighters that fight for Ukranian is 'pure' freedom fighters.
Again this is already a proxy war, and lot off greys on both sides already.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6,136
I don't buy it. 200 new T-90Ms? That would more then double existing inventory. 20 is more believable. They definitely delivered some. As for sanctions, they could well be delivering a simplified variant lacking some of the more advanced features. They could also still be sitting on a pre-sanctions stockpile of parts.
Even for heavy equipment the numbers are much higher. "The West" has sent MBTs from Poland, Czech Republic, Macedonia, and almost certainly a few other sources (Slovakia? Finland?), artillery from Poland (2S1s and Krabs) Germany (PzH-2000 and M-270s) France (Caesar and TRF-1) Italy (FH-70s, M-270s, and M-109s), UK (M777, M270, and L-119), Norway (M-109), The Baltics (D-30s, M-101s, possibly others), the US (M777s, M-270s) air defenses IRIS-T from Germany NASAMS from the US, Crotale from France, and whatever AAA they could scrape up all over (ZU-23-2s mostly but there's some other stuff). Listing the gigantic quantities of light armor isn't even feasible especially with the secrecy.
Overall we're looking at thousands of items total when you consider artillery (SP and towed), tanks, IFVs/APCs, and SAMs.
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While I did say a little while back that it was a sort of proxy war it in many way's does not meet the criteria of a genuine proxy war.
proxy war
1. a war fought between groups or smaller countries that each represent the…
dictionary.cambridge.org
The problem with calling this a proxy war is that it started with an invasion by Russia for its own interests. That this war was contrary to western financial interests (it is often give as a major reason for the current global down turn) and I suspect that the majority of western nations if not all would have preferred that it did not happen at all. the only part of proxy war is that the west has provided military aid since the war started, they have provide support for Ukraine at significant cost to them and little reward. The only real interest the west has is not to have Ukraine subjugated by Russia.
In reality the only major interest at stake here are Russia's expansionism and Ukraine sovereignty
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
When you're already involved actively support one side in a war, even 'officially' not involved directly, you already conducting 'proxy' war. Did in Korean and Vietnam war, USSR not conducting proxy war against US ? Off course they did. Did US didn't did the same proxy war against USSR in Afghanistan ? Off course they did.
Fact is without US and Collective West active support, Ukrainian lines already collapsing. We can also said that without active supply lines from China and USSR commercial fleets flocking Haiphong constantly, North Vietnam will not be able to sustain operation in South. There's not much different then what happened in Ukraine now.
So it's already proxy war, and remember Korean, Vietnam, or Afghanistan all started more or less with Invasion. Most war happen that way.
I'd prefer to call them volunteers because like all wars not all foreign fighters are there because they identify with a certain cause or a value system but because they want to be there. "Freedom fighters" [even if most of them are] to me is painting it with too broad a stroke.
If we want to look at types of services they provide; not only on the Ukraine but elsewhere: it's a blend between a mercenary organisation and a private military contractor.
It indeed would be long over" because nukes would start flying and there wouldn't be a "we" or a West or Russia anymore. If that happens all the mantra about territorial integrity; an expansionist Russia; a resolute West; the triumph of democracy over evil; a rules based system; etc, wouldn't matter anymore.
There is a widely held assumption that in a conventional setting that NATO would be much more effective than Russia. No doubt it has a major edge over Russia but given the distances involved; how broad the frontage are and various other factors related to fighting in the Ukraine I worth assume that it's given that NATO would not face immense difficulties.
"Would We Do Better? Hubris And Validation In The Ukraine", David Johnson, War On The Rocks.
Indeed, their economy has gone rat shit but it hasn't and won't reach a point soon where economic difficulties result in the Russians calling a halt to combat operations. If you recall; from as early as March we've heard time and again about how the Russians are low on missiles and other consumables; how their defence industry has collapsed; about demoralised and Ill trained units; etc; the fact remains however that the Russians are still at it and don't look to be on the verge of collapsing.
Granted the Russians aren't winning and it looks unlikely they can but a Russia which is not victorious doesn't necessarily equate with a Ukraine which is going to be victorious per see. The cliche "all's well that ends well" might not be in the definitive narrative. Still early days and certain dynamics might evolve/change.
And as you pointed out; isn't just the hardware but the non lethal assistance. External assistance provided to the Ukrainians in the form of intel has been pivotal in enabling the Ukrainians to mount various types of strikes on.Russian targets. External assistance would also include aid to prop up the Ukrainian economy and other things.
Another proxy war would include Angola. The Angolan government; Soviets and Cuba on one side against UNITA and the South Africans with considerable assistance from the U.S.
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vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
I take your point, and yes nothing is purely one way or another. I object to the general term of "mercenary" applied to the volunteer fighters for UKR as per the RU MOD.