The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I wonder if this increases the possibility of JSM on the UK F-35s?
I don't think so, because the JSM doesn't fit into the internal weapon bays of the F-35B. That means they can only be carried externally and as such interferes with the stealth characteristics of the plane.

The UK is focusing on Spear 3, which can be carried internally and in far larger quantities. We're also developing FC/ASW with the French - JSM would mean a third type of AShM for the Royal Navy to operate and maintain.

Therefore, in my view a JSM purchase would signal the belief that the Royal Navy was likely to tangle with a significant naval power like the PLAN within 12-24 months and immediately needed an AShM for its fighters. Russia doesn't pose the same threat.
 
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Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Are you sure that you weren't trained by the Kiwi equivalent of Sir Humphrey when you were in D.ENG? I had one close by when I was on the 10th Floor of the Freyberg Building. :cool:
Na, but was totally frustrated by the that type of person in my dealings with both Treasury and Government Stores board, There use to be a very funny TVNZ program called Gliding ON about NZ Government departments around that time on TV and it was just like that except it was not funny when you had to deal with the morons. :rolleyes:
Mind you, I did have some sympathy for them, as spending your whole working life sitting at a desk doing a completely aimless job and never achieving anything of any significance in the process, will make most people into morons.;)
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Naval news has the story, too.
The story states the first vessel will have the missile integrated in 12 months.
I wonder if this increases the possibility of JSM on the UK F-35s?


The other advantages over the the RBS 15 mk 4 are size and weight. The ability of NSM to fit well within the weight and size footprint of legacy Harpoon launchers seems to be a plus for navies looking to replace Harpoon.

The NSM purchase is really good news - gapping the ability to shoot back, or at, enemy ships seemed a bit of a key user requirement for a modern navy. NSM is by all accounts, a very good bit of kit. Next step is to drown FCASM at birth and just buy something else off the shelf. Last I heard, the "joint" weapon had diverged into two different models, one for each country. I'm predicting gucci price tag at primark performance.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Having watched x4 tugs sail up the River Clyde this morning, I've just came across this on my social media trawl...

HMS Glasgow on the move...

Some good images in the article & reading between the lines, the ship will be moved off the berth, onto the barge, taken out to deep water, floated off & returned to the North banks of the river, over the next 3 - 4 weeks.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
On a side note, if enough sets of NSM are purchased to fit 11 ships as the article states that would be excellent, ensuring that important surface groups always have a decent surface-warfare capability.
...
11 Type 23 & Type 45 could be all the T45s & the last 5 T23s to retire. It'd make sense. That'd leave open the possibility of fitting other (newer?) missiles to the T26, T31 if wished, & the T32 if it doesn't get canned. Or more NSM.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't think so, because the JSM doesn't fit into the internal weapon bays of the F-35B. That means they can only be carried externally and as such interferes with the stealth characteristics of the plane.

The UK is focusing on Spear 3, which can be carried internally and in far larger quantities. We're also developing FC/ASW with the French - JSM would mean a third type of AShM for the Royal Navy to operate and maintain.

Therefore, in my view a JSM purchase would signal the belief that the Royal Navy was likely to tangle with a significant naval power like the PLAN within 12-24 months and immediately needed an AShM for its fighters. Russia doesn't pose the same threat.
They are all pretty much unique weapons in their own right.

Spear3 is 100kg missile with ~5-10kg warhead
NSM is a 400kg missile with ~100kg warhead
FC/ASW is a 800kg+ missile with ~200kg warhead and 2x50kg effectors.

This is similar to the idea that NSM and LRASM are very similar missiles doing exactly the same job, they are very different, and a unit might carry both, or different units might carry one instead of the other depending on mission.

Even though JSM doesn't fit into a F-35 weapons bay, it is still a very stealthy device if carried externally and fired at range. It would still be a lot smaller, lighter and is a here today weapon. However, there is no usefulness today JSM and F-35, as there is no integration, wait for blkIV. JSM is supposed to go into production in 2023.

Particularly as there is talk about a JSM variant that may be able to fit into F-35B bays. It may have a smaller warhead (25-50kg), but that would seem possible. It would be a very useful weapon. Hitting much harder than Spear3, but internal and much lighter than FCASW. ~!6kg of spear3 is pretty light. 300 or 500kg warheads are pretty heavy. Plenty of room for something in between.

I would expect RN to look at JSM after BLKIV is out and people know how well that munition works with that platform, and if there is any internal B version on the way. No reason to even really look at it until then. There is some overlap with existing and future weapons, so it would need to be assessed on the state of play at that time. Entirely possible the FCASW doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in time. But at the same time, there are other options as well, and other F-35B operators, looking at other combinations. I imagine it would be looked at post 2025.
 
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Vivendi

Well-Known Member
However, there is no usefulness today JSM and F-35, as there is no integration, wait for blkIV. JSM is supposed to go into production in 2023.
Thanks, great post! Just a minor correction. JSM is already in production -- first delivery is expected in 2023 (scroll down for English version): Historisk missilkontrakt inngått med Kongsberg

So far Norway and Japan have purchased the JSM.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
So far Norway and Japan have purchased the JSM.
It will be interesting how they intend to fire it, given its not integrated into the F-35 and they have sold the F-16.
It doesn't mean they shouldn't make them or they won't be integrated in the future, but we are still in the early phase of that weapons life.
 

seaspear

Active Member

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It will be interesting how they intend to fire it, given its not integrated into the F-35 and they have sold the F-16.
It doesn't mean they shouldn't make them or they won't be integrated in the future, but we are still in the early phase of that weapons life.
The JSM is already undergoing integration into the F-35A & C. It started in 2020.
.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Regarding JSM, just want to clarify a few things:

1. Officially, JSM development started in 2008/2009 -- from the outset the JSM was developed specifically for F-35 Kjøper norske missiler til F-35
2. Some "low-level" F-35 testing with LM started in 2012/2013, including testing that the JSM physically fit into the F-35 USA tester norsk F-35-missil
2. "Stage III" development contract was signed in 2014. at the time this included finalization of design and integration into F-35 Joint Strike Missile (JSM)
3. "Legacy aircraft" testing started in 2015 and was completed in 2018 (F-16 was used for this testing) Edwards' testers complete Joint Strike Missile test program - The Aviation Geek Club
4. "proper" F-35 testing started in 2020, as @ngatimozart pointed out above (with dropping JSM from an F-35 parked on the ground!).
5. First F-35 flight testing was done in February 2021. Det eneste kryssermissilet som passer i buken: Har for første gang sluppet JSM fra F-35 i lufta
6. F-35 integration testing was completed in 2021, and the production contract for Norway was signed in October 2021, and as stated above, they said at the time delivery will start in 2023.

However: JSM is not included in the current F-35 block and will not be operational until F-35 block 4, which has been delayed several times and will not be available for some time. Thus, @StingrayOZ asks a good question -- what will Norway do with the JSM, if they are delivered next year? My guess is they will simply store them and wait for block 4. If they want to use JSM before block 4 is ready, perhaps one option could be to integrate JSM into the P-8 which Norway started flying already. F-16 is out of the question at this point in time.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hoping to see all three variants together but commitment on the RCN’s CSC…who knows…then there is the issue of will I still be around?? I am convinced T26 will be a success and late block builds may very well incorporate ideas from all three navies.
Well that commitment may have just got stronger. Apparently the Canadian government has finally realised that it is a Pacific nation as well and has to devote resources to the Indo Pacific region instead of being completely Euro centric. Your Foreign Minister Joly released Canada's new Indo Pacific policy on Sunday which includes CAN$1.7 billion for patrolling etc.

 

Vanquish

New Member
Well that commitment may have just got stronger. Apparently the Canadian government has finally realised that it is a Pacific nation as well and has to devote resources to the Indo Pacific region instead of being completely Euro centric. Your Foreign Minister Joly released Canada's new Indo Pacific policy on Sunday which includes CAN$1.7 billion for patrolling etc.

Sorry I realize this is not the RCN thread but as you linked that article I would just like to mention that perhaps it's time Canada balanced the Frigate fleet from the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. Another political football I suppose.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sorry I realize this is not the RCN thread but as you linked that article I would just like to mention that perhaps it's time Canada balanced the Frigate fleet from the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. Another political football I suppose.
Yes, a bit of political opposition no doubt but another consideration is moving family members from NS to the most expensive housing market in Canada, BC.
 
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