The Indonesian Army
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
The plan is for Pindad to build IFV with FNSS based on 'Black Tiger' medium tank. That's where the AMX-VCI replacement coming from, not from Anoa 6x6 APC.
Actually some of AMX-VCI has been replaced by IFV in the form of Marder. Seems the 'experiment' with MBT-IFV formation with Leo2 and Marder, put TNI-AD brass on path for Medium Tank-IFV formations.
Thus FNSS-Pindad collaboration basically plan from beginning to provide replacement for AMX-13 with Medium Tank Project and AMX-VCI with IFV. The IFV basically will used the medium tank platform with engine move to front and 30mm turret. Cockeril already put their 30mm turret as candidate, however rumours told Aselsan 30mm turret can also be the candidates.
In the latest meeting both of them talk more on Amphibious Vehicle that FNSS already design (Zaha), thus I don't know how far the progress on IFV. Asside what they are talking in media on mid 2020.
www.aa.com.tr
Still that's the plan so far for AMX-VCI replacement.
Actually some of AMX-VCI has been replaced by IFV in the form of Marder. Seems the 'experiment' with MBT-IFV formation with Leo2 and Marder, put TNI-AD brass on path for Medium Tank-IFV formations.
Thus FNSS-Pindad collaboration basically plan from beginning to provide replacement for AMX-13 with Medium Tank Project and AMX-VCI with IFV. The IFV basically will used the medium tank platform with engine move to front and 30mm turret. Cockeril already put their 30mm turret as candidate, however rumours told Aselsan 30mm turret can also be the candidates.
In the latest meeting both of them talk more on Amphibious Vehicle that FNSS already design (Zaha), thus I don't know how far the progress on IFV. Asside what they are talking in media on mid 2020.
Indonesia dan Turki kembangkan jenis baru medium tank
Vice President Inovasi PT Pindad Windu Paramata mengatakan Pindad dan FNSS akan bekerja sama kembali mengembangkan jenis baru Harimau Medium Tank atau Kaplan MT, yakni kendaraan angkut personel dan juga tank amfibi - Anadolu Ajansı
www.aa.com.tr
Still that's the plan so far for AMX-VCI replacement.
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The KAPLAN-MT/Harimau's hull was a derivitive of the KAPLAN-20 in the first place. Is the plan to build the KAPLAN-20?
Any plans to acquire more? My understanding is the Marderrs and Leopard 2s are used together in a combined arms setup under KOSTRAD.
As for the ZAHA, bottomline question would be how many units does Indonesia intends to acquire as a launch customer? Other than the BMP-3s, Korp Marinir operates a mix bag of assets that are rather old. (BVPs, PT-76s, even the AMX-10P)
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Seems the design being rumours based on Kaplan 30 design as above.
There's rumours for TNI-AD want to find more second hand Leo2 from Bundeswher inventory. Frankly speaking I doubt it. More likely they are going to upgrade those A4 that has not been upgraded before (as only 60% from Leo2 A4 that's has been upgraded).
More over if they go with FNSS for Medium Tank and IFV program, there will not be enough budget for more Leo2.
The launch customers seems targeted to be both Turkey and Indonesian Marines. This program seems to replace BMP3-F that stall due to Geopolitical condition. The ones that need to be replaced is BTR-50 that can be 50 up to 100 inventory. Seems the Marines already got blessings from TNI high command and MinDef to get replacement for BTR-50.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
From Pindad FB. The scope of munitions production co-op with Frenchie partner (Nexter) involved 120mm for MBT, 105mm for Medium Tank, 30mm for Rafale gun, 20mm vector gun and I believe 30mm for 6 and 7 barrels.
Last one quite interesting, as I don't know what it's actually for. However this means also the plan for standardisation of munitions is on going.
for the 120mm MBT round, I assume it was going to be HE rounds only? AFAIK, when we first bought the Leopard, I think we also bought a brand new version of the HE round (can't remember the name), the one with programmable fuse? (I think). I think it was a KMW product.
But they could also be making HEAT rounds, I guess that's good too for gaining experience.
Also, I'm surprised they're not also working on the 155 mm seeing that there TNI AD is a user of Caesar SPG, which is a Nexter product.
But they could also be making HEAT rounds, I guess that's good too for gaining experience.
Also, I'm surprised they're not also working on the 155 mm seeing that there TNI AD is a user of Caesar SPG, which is a Nexter product.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, I also surprised it is not included, as seems TNI-AD in transition from 105mm toward more 155mm either towed or self propelled.
On 120mm, let's see APDS partnerships also include.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Yes...6 and 7 barrels...the army only use the M134 Minigun, which is 7,62 × 51 mm NATO.
TNI-AU only use 20 × 102 mm for its M61 (which can not be used for the GIAT Modèle F2 and Denel GI-2 20 × 139 mm guns of the navy).
The only 30 mm 6-barrels gatling guns Indonesia uses are the chinese AK-630 copies: H/PJ-13 / NG-18, which use the non-NATO 30 × 165 mm AO-18
So like you said, the last part is remarkable, i can not believe GIAT produces the 30 × 165 mm.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Nexter Munitions | Nexter
Yeah, perhaps there're some mistake by whoever in Pindad upload that FB pages. I also don't find that kind of ammo in Nexter pages. The 30mm that Nexter build is for Rafale gun that can be used on Armoured Vehicle, Helicopter (like in Tiger Gun Ship) and Ships.
Still there are a lot of 30mm gun type coming in TNI inventory. Perhaps the agreement with Nexter munitions also help Pindad to build several types of 30mm munitions.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
You know what i think?
I think they mean the 30 × 150 mm B rounds for the GIAT 30M 791 (Yes the cannon of the Rafale), which is a seven-chamber revolver cannon. (So probably they mixed up chambers with barrels.)
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Pindad 90mm Armoured Vehicle 'Badak' begin to enter operational unit. Well finally those Alvis Saladin will got replacement afterall. It will be years ahead before there will be enough Badak to replace Cadillac Gage V150 90mm.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
It seems that the 105 mm version of the Pandur II is cancelled, rumors on internet are telling that it is not stable enough. A more logic reason is that the 105 mm Pandur II is not necessary because of the Pindad Badak with 90 mm gun. The 22 pcs of normal APC version seems to be delivered and in use with TNI-AD, but with such a small number of a APC, it will complicate logistics and operations and unnecessarily increase the costs.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
There are rumours that the actual # needed for 8x8 armoured vehicles reach 200. This calculate the need for Army and Marines. 8x8 being talked to replace M113 as those consider as interim solution. If the deals with Pindad for licensing Pandur II working smoothly, and their abilities to work on amphibious operation satisfied the Marines, the rumours # actually reasonable projection.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Both NLAW and Javelin already in Inventory, also including Spanish C-90.
There're some videos from Indonesian defense Vloger that's being put online already. Above just one of them. NLAW and Javelin being tested first time on operational action with TNI-AD, during 2019 TNI-AD combine exercise.
If you meant another batch of procurement, that's what I haven't got official confirmation yet.
There're some videos from Indonesian defense Vloger that's being put online already. Above just one of them. NLAW and Javelin being tested first time on operational action with TNI-AD, during 2019 TNI-AD combine exercise.
If you meant another batch of procurement, that's what I haven't got official confirmation yet.
I'm interested in their organizational deployment within TNI-AD unit. I'm guessing C-90 is for squad level anti tank capability and Javelin's & NLAW for company or battalion level?
I've been watching Battle Order youtube channel lately, can't help to wonder how an infantry battalion is set up in TNI-AD.
I've been watching Battle Order youtube channel lately, can't help to wonder how an infantry battalion is set up in TNI-AD.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Considering many of the officers up to the brass have US Army education, it is understandable they organized using US Army pattern. Off course they will be adjusted on the availability of budget, but the pattern's there.
Spanish C-90 just like Yugo M-80 is the two of the most numerous personal anti armoured available within TNI-AD inventory. Considering it is non reusable launcher, it's working within squad/platoon level. Javelin and NLAW from TNI-AD sources mostly used by special forces like Kopasus, Kostrad, or Airborne raiders. It is more expensive platform, so understandable it will be used by special teams under company level.
TNI-AD already told that they want to convert as much as possible their Infantry Battalion on Mobile patern. That's why they are procuring more APC, whether 6x6, track and later on 8x8.
I hope this include plans to adopt a common truck platform. I think it's something that should be able to sourced domestically with how big the automobile industry here, something from a civilian model or using civilian truck chassis. The amount type the army used is mind boggling at the moment. I feel like every time they buy a new weapon system they always buy a different truck that comes with it.
Post 1 of 2: The TNI becoming a modern army for the 2030s & beyond
2. Pictures below from Safkar Indopura, held in Singapore from 11 to 18 Nov 2021. This is an annual bilateral exercise between the SAF and the TNI-AD. In 2021, it was hosted by 3rd Singapore Division, with participants from 5th Battalion, Singapore Infantry Regiment (5 SIR) and 310th Infantry Battalion from TNI-AD.
Photos by: LCP Dylan Seah and PTE Scott Pang (Army News)
1. With the 90mm 'Badak' 6x6 platform, the TNI-AD’s infantry forces have an effective fire support tool, and the Anoa 6x6 APC can better better adapt to the modern battlefield. While the Anoa 6x6 APC can be up-armoured, it loses mobility if the weight goes up by too much. In contrast, the TNI-AD’s initial batch of 22 8x8 Pandur is more heavily armoured, without any loss of mobility. Ideally, the TNI-AD should place a follow on order for another 228 Pandurs.
2. Pictures below from Safkar Indopura, held in Singapore from 11 to 18 Nov 2021. This is an annual bilateral exercise between the SAF and the TNI-AD. In 2021, it was hosted by 3rd Singapore Division, with participants from 5th Battalion, Singapore Infantry Regiment (5 SIR) and 310th Infantry Battalion from TNI-AD.
(a) There has been numerous subject matter discussions between the SAF and the TNI-AD on the effective motorisation of infantry forces for a range of operations ranging from peace-time contingency operations to full spectrum war. In many ways the TNI-AD is emulating and adapting Singapore’s TTPs and doctrine development progress made with our introduction of the 8x8 Terrex, along with the 4x4 Belrex MRAP support vehicles for protected mobility of the logistics train.
(b) Singapore’s 5 SIR, as subject matter experts, in-turn had audited and adapted US Army Stryker Brigade Combat Team’s TTPs and urban operations doctrine that was tested at the National Training Center. Without the logistical support requirements of a heavy mechanized force, a Stryker Brigade Combat Team could pivot much more quickly from operating in one region to another in Iraq — Stryker units excel when the vehicles themselves are not needlessly exposed to enemy anti-tank fire, the infantry are brought to fight in restricted terrain where they can negate the advantage of enemy mechanized forces.
Photos by: LCP Dylan Seah and PTE Scott Pang (Army News)
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
On fire support, there's been rumours on some local defense blogs, Twitter and forums, that TNI-AD will drop 105mm 8x8 Pandur II version. 90mm Badak will be the main Infantry fire support, while 105mm will be focus to with the medium Tank.
I have not seen official TNI-AD position, however seeing that initial Pandur II order related to APC version, perhaps those rumours have some ground. Providing mobile Infantry concepts seems taking more priority. Perhaps they also find putting 105mm in Pandur II chassis bit too much.
I have not seen official TNI-AD position, however seeing that initial Pandur II order related to APC version, perhaps those rumours have some ground. Providing mobile Infantry concepts seems taking more priority. Perhaps they also find putting 105mm in Pandur II chassis bit too much.