Seasprite Helicopters to be scrapped!

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Do you see any value in getting them in service even as an interim measure pending full development of NH-90? The certification issue does seem to be partly a DoD stuff up.
The eternal lesson for DMO appears to be "contract definition" and "project management".

If they stay then I guess they'll serve a purpose somewhere. They can always be used as fallbacks and coastguard support :rolleyes:

at a fleet level they could go on manoora and kanimbla as extra protective assets.

gawd knows really. :unknown
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No Doubt About It

Do you see any value in getting them in service even as an interim measure pending full development of NH-90? The certification issue does seem to be partly a DoD stuff up.
There is no doubt the certification issue was a total stuff up by the then DAO/DMO management - as this recently received corro shows

"....... if you haven't already read it, you might want to get a copy of -

Management Audit Branch Preliminary Survey Report:
Project SEA 1411 - Super Sea Sprite (SH-2GA) Helicopters
Report No: 99012/CI dated October 1999
Sponsor: Director of Management Audit (Capital Investment) / NCC-B1-19

It makes for an interesting read, identifying systems integration and certification as major risks in the project office and DAO/DMO approach to the task.

This report agrees with the advice and recommendations provided by experts in Defence and Industry at the time (1998/99) and throughout the intervening period as well as the advice from the ANAO in its performance audits, including ANAO Report 30 on Test and Evaluation in Defence."


;)
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Woomera is our little Davis Monthan graveyard. Its where we parked the miracles prior to on-sale, and where PNG/Sandlines Mi-24 Gunship and Mi-7 troopy spent their holidays.
QUOTE]

Woomera is also where our missile testing range is, and a immigration Detention centre...how coincidental for those two to be within range of each other...

Would we be able to pick up anything on loan from USN or RN till full time replacement is done, or ASuW not a priority with current "abilities"
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Woomera is also where our missile testing range is, and a immigration Detention centre...how coincidental for those two to be within range of each other...

Would we be able to pick up anything on loan from USN or RN till full time replacement is done, or ASuW not a priority with current "abilities"
I don't think there would be anything available for "loan" from the US. The USN is currently testing a new version of the Seahawk, the MH-60R "Romeo", which combines the ASW & ASuW roles. Once testing is completed, this plus the MH-60S "Sierra" version already in service will replace all prior versions of the Sikorsky Seahawk in the USN. Currently the US is looking at rebuilding existing SH-60B/F models into either the MH-60R or S. As such, most of the existing USN Seahawk fleet isn't likely to be available for purchase since they will be re-entering service upon completion off the upgrade. This is likely to leave the Seahawk aircraft that are deemed not worth upgrading/rebuilding due to service issues or airframe life. The RAN is unlikely to be interested in them for exactly the same reason, though some might be able to be used for training purposes.

As for purchasing surplus RN helicopters, I don't think the RN has the same designs for ASuW-configured helicopters. As such, there would need to be a whole program to establish everything needed to support any ex-RN helicopters. I'd imagine that by the time that was completed, the Seahawk/Seasprite replacement would be targeted to enter service in 3 years. Not sure that route makes a great deal of sense.

Assuming the Seasprites don't enter service, I think the best route would be to upgrade the existing Seahawk with the Penguins AShM (fire-forget mode) and purchase whatever USN Seahawks are available, some to enter service, and the rest for training purposes.

-Cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I don't think there would be anything available for "loan" from the US. The USN is currently testing a new version of the Seahawk, the MH-60R "Romeo", which combines the ASW & ASuW roles. Once testing is completed, this plus the MH-60S "Sierra" version already in service will replace all prior versions of the Sikorsky Seahawk in the USN. Currently the US is looking at rebuilding existing SH-60B/F models into either the MH-60R or S. As such, most of the existing USN Seahawk fleet isn't likely to be available for purchase since they will be re-entering service upon completion off the upgrade. This is likely to leave the Seahawk aircraft that are deemed not worth upgrading/rebuilding due to service issues or airframe life. The RAN is unlikely to be interested in them for exactly the same reason, though some might be able to be used for training purposes.

As for purchasing surplus RN helicopters, I don't think the RN has the same designs for ASuW-configured helicopters. As such, there would need to be a whole program to establish everything needed to support any ex-RN helicopters. I'd imagine that by the time that was completed, the Seahawk/Seasprite replacement would be targeted to enter service in 3 years. Not sure that route makes a great deal of sense.

Assuming the Seasprites don't enter service, I think the best route would be to upgrade the existing Seahawk with the Penguins AShM (fire-forget mode) and purchase whatever USN Seahawks are available, some to enter service, and the rest for training purposes.

-Cheers
From what Magoo said 4 weeks ago in this thread the possibility of the navy getting half a dozen ex USN Seahawks for training, to free up the S-70Bs for front line service, is a possibility.

It's interesting that the long awaited announcement about the Seasprite axing has still not happened. Has the Minister indeed been rolled by the PM and Treasury as suggested by blueorchid last week? If so, what next? :confused:

Cheers
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
From what Magoo said 4 weeks ago in this thread the possibility of the navy getting half a dozen ex USN Seahawks for training, to free up the S-70Bs for front line service, is a possibility.

It's interesting that the long awaited announcement about the Seasprite axing has still not happened. Has the Minister indeed been rolled by the PM and Treasury as suggested by blueorchid last week? If so, what next? :confused:

Cheers
For a training role, I could see ex-USN SH-60B/F being used. I don't think the surplus ones likely to be made available to the RAN would have enough flighttime left in the airframe to be worth the expense of modifying to RAN S-70B-2 standard.

As for the delay in the annoucement... Who knows?

-Cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
For a training role, I could see ex-USN SH-60B/F being used. I don't think the surplus ones likely to be made available to the RAN would have enough flighttime left in the airframe to be worth the expense of modifying to RAN S-70B-2 standard.

As for the delay in the annoucement... Who knows?

-Cheers
If the Seasprite program does survive I think the RAN could still make a strong case for some surplus SH-60Bs. There is a problem at present in getting sufficient helos to sea. A few SH-60Bs (or Fs) would at least free up the S-70B-2s for operational use whilst the wait for the Seasprite continues.

Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
For a training role, I could see ex-USN SH-60B/F being used. I don't think the surplus ones likely to be made available to the RAN would have enough flighttime left in the airframe to be worth the expense of modifying to RAN S-70B-2 standard.

As for the delay in the annoucement... Who knows?

-Cheers
Australian Government budget time is in May every year. Typically the biggest Defence announcements have come in May every year (Super Hornet being the big exception here).

If something drastic WERE about to happen, then I can well see Government waiting til budget time to announce it...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
If the Seasprite program does survive I think the RAN could still make a strong case for some surplus SH-60Bs. There is a problem at present in getting sufficient helos to sea. A few SH-60Bs (or Fs) would at least free up the S-70B-2s for operational use whilst the wait for the Seasprite continues.

Cheers
Fully agree, having training helicopters/airframes available so that all 16 S-70B-2s could deploy would be a good thing, irrespective of whether the Seasprites ever enter operational service.

I would sort of like a RAN pilot/aircrew to get a crack at the MH-60R though. From what I understand, the new LM cockpit and sensors improves both the quantity and quality of the information the aircrew receives, and the datalinks allow that to be relayed to a taskforce. I could easily see that being fitted as standard on the Seahawk/Seasprite replacement. Or at least, I'd like to see that standard... Having a pilot/aircrew involved could assist in making recommendations on the fitout of the future naval helicopter. I don't think it would make sense to upgrade the S-70B to the "Romeo" standard given they will be replaced in less than ten years.

-Cheers
 
Last edited:

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The A-109s we purchased may hold a sinister double use perhaps other then just training
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The A-109s we purchased may hold a sinister double use perhaps other then just training
They are being used primarily to maintain the skills of pilots who should be flying the Seasprite or whatever aircraft ADF should have chosen instead of it. Given they are only civilian helo's operated by Navy (though painted grey and with RAN roundels on them) I don't think their role can be all that sinister...
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
RAN SEA SPRITES LIVE - well for a while longer :)

From today's Sydney morning Herald:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Govt-to-continue-Seasprite-contract/2007/05/25/1179601623568.html

The project seems to have more lifes than a cat
There seems little doubt that this was one of the few occasions when Defence Minister Nelson has been rolled by cabinet as it seems likely that this was not his preferred outcome. I was interested in Kaman's comments:

Kaman welcomed the move.

"Kaman is very pleased with the commonwealth's decision to continue the Seasprite program and we look forward to delivering this critical capability to the Royal Australian Navy," company president Paul Kuhn said in a statement from the United States.
I bet they are pleased!

I really hope that they get it right this time as the navy badly needs the capability and needs it ASAP.

Cheers
 
Last edited:

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Very interesting outcome, one that seemingly went against the advice of just about everyone in Defence!

From the point of contract signature for the ECP and the changing hands of money, there is still some 30 months of certification work to be performed on the aircraft before they can be accepted for service!

Oh well, let's hope they can make the best of it from here.

Magoo
 

Jezza

Member
what a joke indeed.
the seasprite should be used as moving targets or divewrecks.
the whole sad story from the start is a joke.:mad: :mad:
aussies dumb as usual.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
what a joke indeed.
the seasprite should be used as moving targets or divewrecks.
the whole sad story from the start is a joke.:mad: :mad:
aussies dumb as usual.
Hmmm...a bit harsh I feel. :unknown

The aircraft, on paper at least, are extremely capable with their sophisticated systems and two Penguin ASMs, in fact probably close to world best in the ASuW environment. However, there's still so far to go before it reaches that point.

The Seasprite has also always been an uncomfortable fit into the ADF's Air 9000 puzzle, so I also thought these troubles may have been an opportunity to avoid this issue. The billion or so we would have lost in cancelling the deal would have been more or less saved over the life of the helos by going with a common airframe such as MRH/NFH90 or MH-60R/S, and realising the the support savings longer term.

Cheers

Magoo
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Seasprite 'problems' are somewhat overstated being more a victim of bad circumstance and being too 'different' to the way the rest of naval aviation flies. Certainly the Black Hawk and other helos couldn't pass the current DGA airworthiness certification requirement and this wasn't specified when Seasprite was contracted. So to assume that a 29 month modification project to achieve certification is something deficient in the aircraft is wrong - it’s the certification goal posts that were moved on it!

But its utility as a combat platform has changed as these goal posts have also been moved. The two Penguin ASMs were needed for the Defence of Australia fiction of sinking enemy LSTs before they could offload invaders at Broome. The modern threat requires a much more flexible and smaller weapon. Something like the M299 smart launchers firing Hellfire II and DAGRS/APKWs. More of an attack helicopter suite of weapons to defeat small high speed boats and littoral targets. Penguins will have limited use for Australia.

The Seasprites will most likely just be used with the new Heavy Machine Gun being acquired for the Seahawks shooting out the starboard door (if it can fit – another nightmare!). IN such a Persian Gulf scenario their excellent ISAR radar, ESM and FLIR will very useful. We might regret that they don’t have a LRF/D and M299s but.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
This nightmare just wont go away. In fact it just seems to get worse and worse.

Your comments combined with those from Magoo, don't make me feel any better about this program. The thought that the much waited for Penguin missile will be unsuitable,the HMG will be a tight fit and the type will lack commonality with the rest of the fleet and cost us money in the long run, all add to the existing Seasprite fiasco. I hoped that it might at least do its job when it finally arrives ??? years late! Why on earth did cabinet ignore the Minister and Defence and not cancel the program and be done with it? :confused:

And now we find that existing helos like the Blackhawk also wouldn't meet the current certification requirements! How can companies tender for business with any confidence if Defence demonstrates that it will move the goal posts after a contact has been let?

Cheers
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The ANZAC helicopter program was unfortunately something we should have dropped long ago.

I see a lot of talk about a single common airframe and things of that nature, but this raises two problems for the "man on the war canoe". I don't know if this has been raised before (I couldn't see it on my quick flick through).

First, the double edged sword:
Purchase, Supply Lines and Maintenance might be cheaper when you only have one type of thing to repair. However, this throws back a massive problem when you have a maintenance issue. Say you have a suspected issue that grounds the whole fleet. Not very common, you say? Sure, when they are new they are the shiny toy and all that, but a few years down the track when some unforseen mechanical gripe shuts down all helicopters until they can be inspected/tested/have part XXYYZ replaced.

I dread this ever happening: Imagine Sikorsky doing such a thing to the S-60/70 line, and what that would do to our current fleet. A common helicopter airframe replacing the 'Hawks and 'Sprites and also the 'Kings would completely ground almost every airborne asset we have.

So, in short, never put all your eggs in one basket - two seperate airframes, sure. Two similar airframes, sure. But never, never, never all the same.

---

Secondly:

Maintenance itself. I am absolutely horrified at the outsourcing of maintenance in any way shape or form. Certain stances point towards a common airframe being the cheapest way and allows maintenance to be outsourced.

Cheaper now, but if you need to take a significant capability overseas (say to the Sandbox or Afghanistan), where is your maintenance crew? Sure, you take the airframes with the most hours left - but that doesn't cover you against things that break. So...
Do you pay the civilian contractors a 3000% 'danger money' bonus to go into a warzone? (costs a lot of money, and thay don't necessarily have to go)
Do you throw each aircraft that requires major repair/servicing onto a C-17 and transport it home and fly back a replacement (costs a lot of money)?
Do you keep and train your own maintenance crew under the supervision of the civilian company so they can repair them themselves (and when something breaks the second time, the finger-pointing party begins)?

Quite simply, civilian maintenance should only be allowed on training airframes. Anything painted green or grey, and/or anything that hangs a weapon off belongs to the guys in uniform.

There are other issues, but I won't go into them.

---

What we should have done was buy a proven airframe to fill the ANZAC Frigate Helicopter role, and wouldn't you know, the darndest thing? It was for an attack helicopter. Now IIRC, an attack helicopter wasn't something the world was short of. Particularly, ones that were proven and have a nice array of weapons we could actually employ reliably.

Attack helicopters in this modern age need to have a few certain characteristics to be effective. Here are some that the RAN should have considered (again, there are more, but heres a snippet):

1) Low radar signature / low radar cross-section: Look at your modern fore-and-aft seating helicopters. The Seasprite looks like a flying wardrobe. (Additionally, this means they take up a little less space in the hangar so the maint crew can bring their bikes along ;) )

2) Flexibility with launched weapon types: The Penguin missile is a nice touch, but as AGRA stated earlier (quite correctly) we can't actually rely on a Penguin to take out medium range fast attack craft. If our LHD's are to be protected, we need the capability to take out a full spectrum of surface threats, not just some cargo ships carrying 5,000 troops and 600 civilian vehicles. Hellfire is the choice here.

3) Flexibility with role: No good calling it an attack helicopter if it can only attack one thing. If you ask a Seasprite to do support of amphibious operations, you'll be hanging a MAG58 out the door and hoping the bad guys don't get too close to your guys or it'll be blue-on-blue paperwork at the very least. A proper attack helicopter would perform this function with ease, even if it had been converted to a shipborne ASuW weapons platform.

4) Ruggedness/Reliability/Ease of maintenance: In other words, get something that either you can fix on the go, or something that has such a proven track record you can account for anything that would go wrong.

5) An accurate and effective projectile weapon: To use a Mag58 or .50 side mounted, you need to sit pretty still or fly smoothly, and last time I checked most helicopters - unless they are proper attack choppers - tend to dislike being peppered with small and medium arms fire. Attack helicopters with helmet-mount sights and chin/belly guns are effective, cheap to use and have plenty of bells and whistles to make sure you can find hidden enemy at night, etc etc. Engagement is easier while manoeuvring, they can be effective on small craft and can be used in support operations ashore. As a plus, they make a pretty good deterrent if you point them at something. We don't exactly need a 30mm antitank cannon as the Apache has, just a 20mm or even a heavy barrel .50 calibre could be enough.

...amongst others.

---

So what is my point? We need two seperate helicopters.

The NH-90 is okay I guess. Don't expect miracles of the maintenance crew if they need to repair any of those composites though: Can't do any of that while you are at sea or sitting in the lee of a sand dune. Other than that, it is a sexy platform for ASW and heavy lift/transport, with the added bonus of having some nice flexible add-ons. But that should fill the role of the Sea Kings and Seahawks. Bold move, but I think the -90 should fill the ASW roles given it's payload/carrying capacity. By the time we replace the Seahawks, they'll be ready to take on that role. The use of a dipping sonar would be pretty sweet, although I doubt the money would ever materialise for that capability.

The other type should be a proper attack chopper.
-The Tiger would be nice, in an effort for the two-common-airframes across the ADF but it lacks blade folding. So that's out.
-(The fictional Sea Apache would also be nice, although they went right down the path of the SeaSprite and turned it into a missile carrier. The nose mounted radar is a good idea, but retention of the TADS is something that needs to be sorted, as is a decent projectile weapon (read cannon).)
-AH-64D with the new folding blade system is getting close, although they are pretty pricey and are a little on the large side from memory.
-AH-1Z SuperCobra is the only alternative, although I am yet to see if the four blade AH-1Z has a blade fold. It pretty much does everything right, except for the fact it is missing a decent surface search radar. If we were to approach Bell about it, I'm sure they can work on it. Also, a FLIR system a la TADS would be a fantastic addition.

---

What is the rationale?

Looking strictly from a deployment situation, assume that we purchased the AH-1Z. The aim is to deploy ships/helicopters thus:

Air Warfare platform: Carry one MRH-90 (Multi-role).
ANZAC Frigate: Carry one AH-1Z (ASuW).
Adelaide class (or their replacement): One MRH-90 (ASW), with the ability to carry an additional AH-1Z (ASuW).
LHD's: MRH-90 (Transport/Heavy Lift, Multi-role), plus a detachment of AH-1Z (Littoral/Amphibious Support, ASuW)
Other support vessels: Obviously the MRH-90.

That's a lot of money, I know. Very unlikely to happen, but it would increase capability far beyond that which is currently offered by our airframes in service. Also, I'm not bagging out the Seahawk - it's a fantastic machine - this is purely a projection into the future where we will be spending money on new aquisitions. I just can't see money being spent on Seahawk when the MRH-90 is theoretically able to do the same job :(

But the reality is thus: If you place a fistful of Army into an LHD and send them somewhere without air cover of any sort, you are doing nothing but inviting diaster. Tiger isn't up to it, the RAAF might be a little too far away to provide instant response and good loiter times, and as previously stated you cannot rely on a flying bathtub with a machine gun hanging out the door with nothing better than a Mk 1 eyeball for target selection and prosecution.

So: we need something along the lines of the SuperCobra to realise the potential. Amphibious warfare, fleet defence and interdiction is where these aircraft would shine.
 

rossfrb_1

Member
from the Oz

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23135758-31477,00.html
"
Troubled anti-sub choppers face axe

Mark Dodd | January 31, 2008

THE problem-riddled Super Seasprite helicopter intended to boost the navy's anti-submarine capability is likely to become the first major contract to be axed by the Rudd Government.

The project run by US-based Kaman Aerospace, which has cost taxpayers more than $1billion and is running six years behind schedule, is one of a number of costly marginal defence programs under review by the Labor Government.

The $667 million contract, signed by the Howard government and Kaman in 1997, was to put a state-of-the-art weapons system on 11 upgraded SG-2A Super Seasprites, originally built in the 1960s.

However, the project has been mired in difficulties over the fitting of the weapons system, known as the Integrated Tactical Avionics System, which co-ordinates radar, sonar and air-to-underwater missiles. The Australian understands that rival US manufacturer Sikorsky is offering to sell Australia 27 off-the-shelf helicopters to replace the Seasprites, which are yet to be operationally deployed and are grounded in their hangar at Nowra on the NSW south coast.

While Kaman executives yesterday could not be reached for comment, other industry sources confirmed the Seasprite program was likely to be axed.

In opening remarks on Tuesday at the Pacific 2008 International Maritime and Naval Exposition in Sydney, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon warned of several defence acquisitions unlikely to "ever achieve their desired capability".

Asked to clarify his remarks, Mr Fitzgibbon identified the Seasprite program and the $1.4billion FFG guided missile frigate upgrade as two projects a Labor Government would not have proceeded with.

Both were listed for an impending federal government review of troubled defence projects.

Yesterday a well-placed senior government source confirmed to The Australian: "All options (including cancellation) are on the table."

Former defence minister Brendan Nelson is known to have favoured cancelling the Seasprite project but was overruled by cabinet colleagues in May.

Labor's program review will be overseen by the new Parliamentary Secretary for Defence Procurement, Greg Combet, who yesterday launched the Defence Export Unit.

Two successful Australian-made products have elicited considerable overseas interest: Austal's Armidale-class patrol boats and the Thales Bushmaster Infantry Mobility Vehicle, recently sold to the Dutch army. Britain was also interested in buying theBushmaster and negotiations were under way, Mr Combet said.

The Defence Materiel Organisation expected the $8 billion Air Warfare Destroyer program - Australia's most ambitious defence shipbuilding contract - would be delivered on time and within budget, DMO general manager Warren King told The Australian. The DMO boss said much had been learned from the controversial $6 billion Collins-class submarine program.

Unlike the Collins-class, the AWDs are being fitted with proven combat systems, Mr King said. "In an area where it's said there are skills shortages, we've (the AWD program) had no shortage of people wanting to work on this program ... We've got a skills centre being built in South Australia that will allow the ships to be maintained throughout their life. These destroyers are leading-edge protection," he said."
******************************************
Any one taking odds?
A number of issues as I see it.

How long to get the sprites into service vs how long it would take to get something else into service?

If the sprites are kept - just how long will they stay useful? Not knowing the hardware that's been installed, it would seem to me that the technology in them is already years old (~7?), albeit 'new', if it's another couple of years before they are operational, then technology wise they could be due for an upgrade just after introduction.

Interesting that Sikorsky have lined up 27 helipcopters to sell the ADF. They'd be more than just sprite replacements then (seahawks?)?


rb
 
Top