Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Maybe but they aren't designed to take on a CBG, CGN,DDG or FFG are they. They are more a constabulary vessel that happens to operate in the Arctic. The RCN has a different philosophy and set of CONOPS to the VMF. Historically the Russians have always armed their ships for bear. Different culture so a different outlook, set of values, and they look at the world through a different lens to the west.
With a likely future ice free Arctic during summer, the possibly of hostile vessels with guns in access of 25 mm is probable down the road. The AOPS are over 6,000 tons and deserve better kit. Hopefully they get surplus 57 mm from future decommissioned Halifax frigates.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
With a likely future ice free Arctic during summer, the possibly of hostile vessels with guns in access of 25 mm is probable down the road. The AOPS are over 6,000 tons and deserve better kit. Hopefully they get surplus 57 mm from future decommissioned Halifax frigates.
Maybe 15-20 years from now the arctic fleets do not need any more icebreakers. The ice is melting that fast.

Two years ago a Russian Northpole expedition left a time capsule behind in the thick arctic ice, expecting the ice will melt in 30-50 years so the timecapsule would be released and found somewhere on Earth.

That time capsule is recently found on the Irish coast....


 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Interesting.
The naval logistics center in Sudan will be Russia’s first military base in Africa since the collapse of the Soviet Union. During that time, the country had a permanent naval base in Somalia.


So it seems the new logistic base will not be only used to store goods, but also to let crew rest in its facilities. This can be practical during operations against Somali piracy.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The 3rd corvette of the Project 22800 just joint the Baltic Fleet.

The Mytischi lead corvette of project 22800 joined the Baltic fleet in December 2018 followed by the Sovetsk in October 2019. The Odintsovo is the first project 22800 corvette armed with Pantsir-M air defense launcher. It was laid in July 2016 by Pella Shipyard in Leningrad region and floated in May 2018.

Ships of this size and with such a firepower are perfect for the Baltic Sea.
 

BenDavid

New Member
Full disclosure: Here is a YouTube video of mine i made on the Project 22386 design changes to accommodate and offensive VLS1 - previous (charly015) vs Latest (2020).png.
Text from the video description:
"The hull of Stealth Corvette Project 20386 has probably not been lengthened. What we can say for sure, is that on the miniature, the superstructure has been shortened and the Redut VLS SAM system moved slightly forward towards the bow. Information is also given on the project as a whole."
 

Atlantic Realm

New Member
Full disclosure: Here is a YouTube video of mine i made on the Project 22386 design changes to accommodate and offensive VLSView attachment 47822.
Text from the video description:
"The hull of Stealth Corvette Project 20386 has probably not been lengthened. What we can say for sure, is that on the miniature, the superstructure has been shortened and the Redut VLS SAM system moved slightly forward towards the bow. Information is also given on the project as a whole."
I thought this had been delayed ? Is it moving forward ?
 

Atlantic Realm

New Member
The project is moving forward but very slowly. It appears that the vessel underwent considerable redesign. Personally I think they should scrap it and invest the resources into upgrading the 20380/385.
I’m curious as to how the 20380/385 need upgrades. American observers typically characterize Russian ships as better armed than their American counterparts.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I’m curious as to how the 20380/385 need upgrades. American observers typically characterize Russian ships as better armed than their American counterparts.
Who are these Observers who think Russian Ships are better armed then American ones? The Russian Navy is still heavily reliant on Soviet era Vessels and there was philosophical difference between the USN and Soviet Navies, the USN and its Allies has mainly been about Sea Control, the Soviet and to some degree modern Russian Navy has mainly been about Sea Denial.
For the Soviet/Russian fleet this meant Anti Surface Warfare had a higher precedence in designing there Ships, with killing the Carriers and Amphibs first priority. They would pack their ships with Carrier Killing AShMs, and their Ships at first glance would look more powerful then the Western Ships but in reality both were armed for the mission they were expected to fulfil. The Americans never developed 5t Nuclear Tipped SSMs to pack their Ships, because they didn’t have to take out 100,000t Carriers.
The NATO Nations on the other hand concentrated on killing Cruisers and smaller, and greater numbers of SSMs the size of Harpoon or Exocet is better suited to that role.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I’m curious as to how the 20380/385 need upgrades. American observers typically characterize Russian ships as better armed than their American counterparts.
There are problems with the air defense system, and the radar on the traditional 20380 mast. The new IBMK introduces an extremely expensive new radar, but it's unclear whether it resolves the issue. Using the Puma radar from the gun turret for the SAM actually works, but leaves the gun without guidance. The AK-630s have also been reported to have accuracy issues. There's also an issue with the Paket-NK system where because the anti-torpedoes come in factory sealed launch tubes, reloading them at sea is basically impossible, it takes serious equipment. The system could easily be re-designed to have fixed launch tubes with the torpedoes loaded into them. Final point, the AVMF badly needs a modern ASW kit for both rotary and fixed wing. Without a modern ASW helo, the 20380s will always be limited. None of these issues are insurmountable, and the type is still very useful and badly needed by the VMF, so the recent decision to extend the run by 10 more hulls is correct (in point of fact the VMF probably needs 30+ of them). They also need to upgrade the first 20380 to carry a SAM, and, even if the new IBMK solves the SAM guidance issue (I'd love to see some robust live-fire exercises against complex targets), the 6 older 20380s still need to be upgraded. Assuming they won't be replacing literally the entire mast, some radar that can do the job.

EDIT: The 20386 is bigger, more expensive, and less likely to see a production run of 30+ hulls. To top it off, at least in its original form, it carried an inferior sonar, and used up considerable space for hypothetical modules that don't exist. The cost of the ship has already gotten downright silly, and with it's size and endurance it's a light frigate not a corvette, putting it in the niche of the 22350, which completely outperforms it.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
You dont see much, just some bright smoke and later a nightlaunch from far away. Its not the first launch of the Tsirkon from a Project 22350 frigate, but the Tsirkon is still an impressive weapon.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
You dont see much, just some bright smoke and later a nightlaunch from far away. Its not the first launch of the Tsirkon from a Project 22350 frigate, but the Tsirkon is still an impressive weapon.
My concern is how they will provide targeting. There are reports that the range of both the P-1000 Vulcan and the P-800 Onyx/Yakhont has been extended with upgrades, but there is still not Tu-95RTs replacement in sight. They're not even planning for one, at least as far as I can tell. Russian UAVs are nowhere near where they can fill the role (though by the end of the decade they may be).
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
My concern is how they will provide targeting. There are reports that the range of both the P-1000 Vulcan and the P-800 Onyx/Yakhont has been extended with upgrades, but there is still not Tu-95RTs replacement in sight. They're not even planning for one, at least as far as I can tell. Russian UAVs are nowhere near where they can fill the role (though by the end of the decade they may be).
How about the Il-38N? Maybe it is not enough to fully exploit the capabilities of the latest versions of the P800 Oniks, but it seems that its radar is able to detect surface objects within a radius of 320 kilometers and can track 32 above- and underwater targets simultaneously.
Are there any serious plans for an MPA-version of the Be-200 or Tu-204?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
How about the Il-38N?
Sure. Except there are literally several of them.

Maybe it is not enough to fully exploit the capabilities of the latest versions of the P800 Oniks, but it seems that its radar is able to detect surface objects within a radius of 320 kilometers and can track 32 above- and underwater targets simultaneously.
How many training exercises have the VMF conducted in recent times with Il-38s being used to provide targeting to AShMs? Where are the Novellas currently based and operating out of? In what scenarios can the VMF realistically expect to have them available, and not dedicated to ASW missions close to home?

Are there any serious plans for an MPA-version of the Be-200 or Tu-204?
There don't appear to be.

I suspect Russian maritime strike capability and long range AShM capability are currently severely limited.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
How about the Il-38N? Maybe it is not enough to fully exploit the capabilities of the latest versions of the P800 Oniks, but it seems that its radar is able to detect surface objects within a radius of 320 kilometers and can track 32 above- and underwater targets simultaneously.
Are there any serious plans for an MPA-version of the Be-200 or Tu-204?
Sure. Except there are literally several of them.



How many training exercises have the VMF conducted in recent times with Il-38s being used to provide targeting to AShMs? Where are the Novellas currently based and operating out of? In what scenarios can the VMF realistically expect to have them available, and not dedicated to ASW missions close to home?



There don't appear to be.

I suspect Russian maritime strike capability and long range AShM capability are currently severely limited.
The lack of replacements for the Tu-95 Bear MPA is a strategic blunder. Both the Be-200 and Tu-204 would be ideal replacements and should be worked together using the same systems. The Beriev doesn't require a runway which is an advantage straight away and the Tu-204 could be maximised for longer range.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Take a Tu-214 & remove most of the passenger facilities to save weight. After adding the necessary military equipment there should still be enough weight margin to add a lot of extra fuel. Still won't be able to fly as far as a Tu-95, but it should be possible to increase range greatly. Maybe double?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Take a Tu-214 & remove most of the passenger facilities to save weight. After adding the necessary military equipment there should still be enough weight margin to add a lot of extra fuel. Still won't be able to fly as far as a Tu-95, but it should be possible to increase range greatly. Maybe double?
That would have been a perfect solution 15 years ago. Especially given how many other government special purpose aircraft are built on the 214. Now, given development times for the equipment, the MS-21 would be the perfect candidate. And the type needs orders, so it's logical. But that's the real problem, the equipment. Russia needs a modern ASW loadout, a recon suite for maritime patrol, and a weapons bay that can drop hydro-acoustic buoys, sea mines (Russia also needs modern sea mines), AShMs, and depth charges. As far as I can tell all those things are either missing or at best under development but not ready to deploy any time soon.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Even after the accident with the crane, and later the fire on board the Admiral Kuznetsov, the Russian Navy plans to continue with the overhaul and modernisation of this aircraft carrier.
 

SolarWind

Member
Even after the accident with the crane, and later the fire on board the Admiral Kuznetsov, the Russian Navy plans to continue with the overhaul and modernisation of this aircraft carrier.
Apparently, its service life after the overhaul and modernisation is only extended by 5 years. Might be easier to build a brand new aircraft carrier, unless this is a platform to test new technologies.
 

SolarWind

Member
That would have been a perfect solution 15 years ago. Especially given how many other government special purpose aircraft are built on the 214. Now, given development times for the equipment, the MS-21 would be the perfect candidate. And the type needs orders, so it's logical. But that's the real problem, the equipment. Russia needs a modern ASW loadout, a recon suite for maritime patrol, and a weapons bay that can drop hydro-acoustic buoys, sea mines (Russia also needs modern sea mines), AShMs, and depth charges. As far as I can tell all those things are either missing or at best under development but not ready to deploy any time soon.
Unless my information is outdated, MS-21 might not be suited for military applications because a good portion of its components were sourced from abroad, it was from the beginning meant as a commercial project for both domestic use and export. The Tu-214, however, is 100% domestic and cannot be affected by sanctions.
 
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