Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I also dont see a major fleet deployment beyond the limits of the North Cape nor beyond the Kamchatka peninsular in time of war simply because they rely heavily on land based aircraft.
I think this strongly depends on the kind of war it turns out to be. During the last major escalation in Idlib, when Russian jets were burning Turkish tanks, there was a non-zero chance of a war with Turkey, and the Black Sea Fleet sent the strongest forces to the Mediterranean, specifically all 3 11356 frigates, two 21631 small missile ships, two 22160 patrol ships, a 12700 mine trawler, and support vessels. Most likely two 636.3 subs too. They were clearly prepared to fight beyond their traditional area of operations. In principle they would be within range of coastal aviation in Syria, and Su-34s out of Syria have conducted maritime strike training exercises using X-35 missiles. But the airgroup in Syria is relatively small, and for all their new ships, the Black Sea Fleet is weaker then the Turkish Navy by a solid margin (just the ship count leaves them outclassed in a way that they can't hope to counter with sophisticated tech). In a war against the US, NATO, China, Japan, or opponents of similar caliber, you're likely correct. But it's entirely possible that the next naval conflict Russia is involved in will be against a significantly smaller opponent, and Russia may operate well beyond their traditional coastal bastions.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Admiral Nakhimov is out of it's dock. Based on recent info, it's most likely that we won't see it back in service until 2022.


Forpost UAVs (Russian Searcher MkIIs) have been used to find maritime targets, correct naval gunfire, provide target information to the AVMF, submarines, and even anti-submarine aircraft. There have also been experiments on using Orlan-10 UAVs from a launch catapult on 11356 frigates.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The Admiral Nakhimov is out of it's dock. Based on recent info, it's most likely that we won't see it back in service until 2022.


Forpost UAVs (Russian Searcher MkIIs) have been used to find maritime targets, correct naval gunfire, provide target information to the AVMF, submarines, and even anti-submarine aircraft. There have also been experiments on using Orlan-10 UAVs from a launch catapult on 11356 frigates.

So after modernisation the official designiation of the Admiral Nakhimov will not be Project 1144 anymore but 11442M?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
So after modernisation the official designiation of the Admiral Nakhimov will not be Project 1144 anymore but 11442M?
I'm actually not sure. Maybe. It seems to be designation many sources are using. Normally VNF project numbers don't include letters, but the 1155 upgrade is apparently officially the 1155M (and reclassified as a frigate to boot). There's also conversations about the 22350M, so it gets fuzzy.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
If the firedamage is really less than $5 million, then the Russian Navy is not only lucky, but it would still be an acceptable amount to continue with the overhaul and let the Admiral Kuznetsov to return to service.

But how about the large hole caused by the fallen crane?
Is that already repaired?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Those ugly short fat Ka-27s are indeed of an old design, so hopefully a new shipborne helicopter design will become reality the next decade.
The problem is less with the helicopter and more with the mission loadout it needs to carry. Russia needs a light helo-based PGM for maritime strike, as well as a whole new anti-submarine set up for fixed wing and rotary. Designing the helicopter is the easy part, Russia has plenty of experience in that, and the technology is readily available.

EDIT: A new LO-compatible version of the AU-220M 57mm combat module for warships was shown at Army-2020. It's interestingly that the ship they're showing it is a 12700 minetrawler that currently carries an AK-630 where they drew the AU-220M. If you recall, 12700s from the 9th hull onward are supposed to grow in size and get a new unmanned minesweeper. They might also be getting a new gun turret.

 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
So its seems that after the third Project 677 Lada Class, at least one more is ordered. I wonder if the fourth is different with numbers 1-3.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
So its seems that after the third Project 677 Lada Class, at least one more is ordered. I wonder if the fourth is different with numbers 1-3.
They signed a whole packet of contracts, including 1 new 636.3 and one new 677. Also apparently 8 more 20380 corvettes, 2 20385 corvettes, (it's likely at least 6 of the 20380s will be built in the Far East), and 2 more 22350 frigates. Also an unspecified number of additional 12700 trawlers. In my opinion it's good that they realized the need for the 22350s and 20380s in their current format instead of putting it off again in the hopes of getting 22350Ms and 20386s.

 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
They signed a whole packet of contracts, including 1 new 636.3 and one new 677. Also apparently 8 more 20380 corvettes, 2 20385 corvettes, (it's likely at least 6 of the 20380s will be built in the Far East), and 2 more 22350 frigates. Also an unspecified number of additional 12700 trawlers. In my opinion it's good that they realized the need for the 22350s and 20380s in their current format instead of putting it off again in the hopes of getting 22350Ms and 20386s.

Yes its good that they add more 22350, but do you expect it is possible that the planned construction of the 22350M will start after 2022? After all 956 and some other large vessels need to be replaced after 2030.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes its good that they add more 22350, but do you expect it is possible that the planned construction of the 22350M will start after 2022? After all 956 and some other large vessels need to be replaced after 2030.
Good question. I wouldn't be surprised if the replacement for the 3 956s and 8 1155s is 3-4 1155M and 10 22350s.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
So the Project 23900 design is slightly larger than the Mistral Classs and adapted to Russian demands.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Interesting, a new diesel-electric submarine is presented at the Army-2020 forum.

With a length of 65,5 m and a beam of 7 m, it will be smaller than the Project 636 and Project 677 Lada, but longer than the Amur 1450.
The most remarkable thing is that it will use a Diesel-gasturbine engine for its propulsion, also for under water!
It will be the concurrent/rival of Rubin Design Bureau's Amur and Project Kalina designs, but i wonder if the gasturbine-propulsion will make it a too expensive design.

As a bonus ill share here a nice photo of a Be-200ES taken from Russia's Northern fleet to deploy Be-200 for Border Protection, SAR and ASW missions - Naval News
 

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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
It was planned that the Project 09851 Khabarovsk (modified 955) would be launched in june this year. It is a special purpose submarine like the Project 09852 Belgorod (modified 949A).


Besides that the Status-6 Poseidon should enter service this month, september 2020.


Any news or development status updates about the 09852, 09851 and Poseidon?
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Being much larger than the lost PD-50 floating drydock in Murmansk Oblast, this new drydock will become Russia's largest. This Zvezda facility will maybe also become the only place were large vessels like aircraft carriers can be build and getting heavy maintenance.
For which i understand the Admiral Kuznetsov is still in Murmansk, i dont know if it needs a drydock to finish the current repairs and overhaul, but if it needs, it have to be towed to Bolshoi Kamen, Primorsky Krai, to the other side of the country.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

The project 885M Yasen-M subs are supposed to carry the new Kalibr-M cruise missiles with a range of over 4000kms, allegedly.


There are confusing reports on the new Haski project, to be an eventual Yasen-M replacement. Namely that two variants are planned, one with anti-ship missiles Tsirkon, the other with anti-submarine missiles Kalibr. Given that previous information indicated that Kalibr anti-sumbarine munitions and Tsirkon missiles could both be used from 222350 frigates from the same launchers, this makes little sense. Though the testing of the Tsirkon from the 22350 frigate in the White Sea did show a separate transport-launch container on the helipad. Perhaps the Tsirkon doesn't fit into the USKS or even the planned UKSK-M.


A model of a new Russian small submarine was recently displayed, the P-750B. It comes from Malakhit, is supposed to be anaerobic, 1400 tonns, and carry vertical launch missile tubes. It's supposed to have a crew of only 18-20, and comes from a developer that traditional designs very small submarines. It remains to be seen if anything happens with this design, but if the 677s don't work out with an anaerobic plant, this may be a way out.

Currently a next-generation Lada replacement called the Kalina is already being developed despite the fact that the 677 Lada has not gotten much of a production run. This reportedly has to do with the failure of the anaerobic plant for the type. The 677 does feature other improvements over the 636.3, and it's likely that the VMF wants to give the new ships a service run of some sort to make transitioning to the eventual Kalina easier.


There are indications that the range of the P-500 AShM has been extended in the upgraded P-1000 variant, from 700kms to 1000 kms. This apparently requires new or upgraded tubes to handle the greater temperatures. The Ustinov is the first to get them, but it's likely that the Moskva and Varyag will follow, though I personally question the wisdom given the age of the ships, and the missile system in question.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
T
Update.

The project 885M Yasen-M subs are supposed to carry the new Kalibr-M cruise missiles with a range of over 4000kms, allegedly.


There are confusing reports on the new Haski project, to be an eventual Yasen-M replacement. Namely that two variants are planned, one with anti-ship missiles Tsirkon, the other with anti-submarine missiles Kalibr. Given that previous information indicated that Kalibr anti-sumbarine munitions and Tsirkon missiles could both be used from 222350 frigates from the same launchers, this makes little sense. Though the testing of the Tsirkon from the 22350 frigate in the White Sea did show a separate transport-launch container on the helipad. Perhaps the Tsirkon doesn't fit into the USKS or even the planned UKSK-M.


A model of a new Russian small submarine was recently displayed, the P-750B. It comes from Malakhit, is supposed to be anaerobic, 1400 tonns, and carry vertical launch missile tubes. It's supposed to have a crew of only 18-20, and comes from a developer that traditional designs very small submarines. It remains to be seen if anything happens with this design, but if the 677s don't work out with an anaerobic plant, this may be a way out.

Currently a next-generation Lada replacement called the Kalina is already being developed despite the fact that the 677 Lada has not gotten much of a production run. This reportedly has to do with the failure of the anaerobic plant for the type. The 677 does feature other improvements over the 636.3, and it's likely that the VMF wants to give the new ships a service run of some sort to make transitioning to the eventual Kalina easier.


There are indications that the range of the P-500 AShM has been extended in the upgraded P-1000 variant, from 700kms to 1000 kms. This apparently requires new or upgraded tubes to handle the greater temperatures. The Ustinov is the first to get them, but it's likely that the Moskva and Varyag will follow, though I personally question the wisdom given the age of the ships, and the missile system in question.

The Russian Navy does not have many cruisers, and the amount of destroyers als decline the last decades, so i think Russia is forced to keep the 1164 vessels up to date and operational the next 15-20 years.

One thing i dont understand is the very short range of the 1164 CRUISERS, just 3000 nm! Thats less than most frigates and corvettes. (Or wikipedia gives wrong information).


So, the first of the largest, heaviest and most powerful nuclear icebreaker ever built, the first of the Project 22220 class, has completed sea trials.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is a new infographic from Dalzavod floating around regarding the upgrade of the Admiral Vinogradov, which features a much expanded roster, compared to the Shaposhnikov. It's meant to carry, according to this, 16 Urans, 32 Kalibrs, 2 Shtil-1 systems (48 cells total) and the Paket anti-torpedo system (two 2X2 launchers, one for each side). This is very ambitious and would make the 1155M comparable to a modern destroyer at least in some aspects of its armament (though still deficient in other areas, there's only so much you can do with a 40 year ship).


Vostochnaya Verf lost the contract for the 2 22800s likely due to the fact that they still haven't been laid down. With slow engine production, and an open question whether the type is even needed now that LACM restrictions are gone, this is not surprising.


And Severnaya found a new contractor for their expansion plans, called Domestic Systems and Technlogies (Отечественные Системы и Технологии) Rostech subsidiary that has no experience with maritime dock work of any kind... it will be interesting to see how this plays out. In 2019 they cancelled their contract with Metrostroy for the same work.


Finally, an interesting article on the problem of shoreline anti-submarine capabilities for the VMF. It heavily critizes the 22380 and 20385 series corvettes, due to the issues with their air defense system (their main airspace control radar Furke doesn't provide radio-correction, the artillery radar Puma does but using it makes the gun unavailable for CIWS, and the AK-630s they carry have targetting issues). They also don't carry anti-submarine missiles, the VMF not having a light anti-submarine projectile, only a heavy one for the UKSK cells. And the Ka-27M helo apparently has its anti-submarine search system removed, likely to it being too old to be of any use. It can theoretically still be used to drop anti-submarine munitions would essentially have to rely on the ship for the targeting.

Essentially a realization is building that the VMFs anti-submarine warfare capabilities are abysmal and unfortunately no easy solution is in sight. It's likely that the project 20385 corvettes need a new main radar to make them reasonably survivable against anything more then a couple of AShMs, and a new helo-mounted antisubmarine warfare system. The project 20380 likely also needs some sort of light anti-submarine munition that can either be fitted into the Uran launchers, or fitted somewhere else on the ship.

 
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