Hasn't Klimov recently criticized the Pantsir-M for being unable to defend 22800's in bad weather due to limitations of mm radars? There are apparently though differing opinions on whether the Pantsirs have only mm radars or also have cm radar capability. Regarding 20380's and 20385's, even with all the Paket limitations, they each can still carry a mix of 8 torpedoes. And the 20385's have Kalibr VLS, are they not capable of carrying and operating the Kalibr anti-sub missiles? About retrofitting early versions of 20380's, it may simply be more expedient to just build more, including the 20385 variant.
Russian Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Spacearrow99
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I have my own doubts regarding Klimov's criticism of the Pantsyr system. But I'm going to reserve judgement until we see the navalized Pantsyr in widespread service. Regarding the 20380s, remember even out of the 22 currently contracted only 4 are 20385s. They can carry the 91R but at the expense of sacrificing anti-ship capabilities. Paket is still good (certainly better then the "nothing" that most Russian surface combatants have for anti-torpedoes), but the point is that it could easily have been made better. They still can be.
As for not refitting the early version... I have a hard time believing that. At the very least the Stereguschiy should get a Pantsyr in place of it's extremely limited Kashtan. Realistically they all need a radar replacement or upgrade to be viable. Remember, they make up 8 out of the 22 currently planned ships, and 7 out of the 8 already built vessels. Remember, also, that the VMF has very few major surface combatants, and out of those even fewer still have serious combat value. Un-upgraded 1155s for example are nicknamed "doves of peace" because their SAM is only a navalized Tor, their AShM is the Rastrub, the only area where they are somewhat relevant is the anti-submarine aspect but even there the technology is dated at best. With the 956s slowly being retired, and only a small number of modern frigates, the 20380s have to play a major role. Remember in the past 20 years Russia has built 5 frigates, and 8 corvettes. That's it for major surface combatants. With that in mind, having 7 of these ships with a major deficiency in air defense, and 3 (the 11356s) with a major anti-submarine deficiency, creates a major problem.
It would make a lot of sense to change the masts and install the new radars on early version 20380's, with various other upgrades. It seems, however, that modernization is currently done on older ships with repairable engines, whereas new ships are being built only as fast as their new engines can be manufactured.
I recently read much talk about plans to send some of the new 20380's to the Black Sea Fleet to be operated alongside 11356's and 22800's. Makes sense with the 20380's being the best ASuW option after the 22350's, who are tied up in the north, 11356 being able to do some group air defense, and 22800 basically acting like a micro arsenal ship with point air defense. Seems like a hack, but their options are limited, especially with the Mediterranean being such a flash point.
I recently read much talk about plans to send some of the new 20380's to the Black Sea Fleet to be operated alongside 11356's and 22800's. Makes sense with the 20380's being the best ASuW option after the 22350's, who are tied up in the north, 11356 being able to do some group air defense, and 22800 basically acting like a micro arsenal ship with point air defense. Seems like a hack, but their options are limited, especially with the Mediterranean being such a flash point.
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One of the 22350s is slated for the Black Sea as well as the Retiviy 20380 (it should be the next one coming out of Severnaya). In my opinion the Black Sea Fleet needs a full brigade of 6 corvettes (and 6 small missile ships) at least, to replace it's aging Soviet small missile boats and small anti-submarine boats.
The black sea fleet is going to see a lot of action given it will include the Mediterranean flotilla. It may need more.
Updates.
A new Kh-35 coastal variant called (confusingly enough Rubezh, like the ICBM) is nearing completion carrying 4 missiles on a Kamaz chassis instead of 8 missiles on the larger MZKT chassis. It seems to be mainly aimed at export customers.
vk.com
The 9th 21631 small missile ship has begun sea trials. A total of 12 have been ordered. It appears to be destined for the Black Sea Fleet.
rg.ru
The official contract has been signed for the design of a new naval helo, the Minoga. There are reports that work had started before this. This contract is for the OKR so it would make sense a NIR preceded it.
The third 20380 for the Pacific is also at trials, the Pacific Fleet badly needs more of these.
bmpd.livejournal.com
dambiev.livejournal.com
The 5th 12700 mine trawler has been launched, it's planned for hold over in 2021.
bmpd.livejournal.com
A new ship-repair center appears to be opening in Tartus, turning it into a real base.
navy-korabel.livejournal.com
The Gorshkov has performed a Tsirkon launch. The launch was publicized unlike previous launches of the system, and struck a target ~450kms away.
bmpd.livejournal.com
A new Kh-35 coastal variant called (confusingly enough Rubezh, like the ICBM) is nearing completion carrying 4 missiles on a Kamaz chassis instead of 8 missiles on the larger MZKT chassis. It seems to be mainly aimed at export customers.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
The 9th 21631 small missile ship has begun sea trials. A total of 12 have been ordered. It appears to be destined for the Black Sea Fleet.
Новейший МРК "Грайворон" впервые вышел в море для ходовых испытаний - Российская газета
Новейший малый ракетный корабль "Грайворон", построенный для Черноморского флота на "Зеленодольском заводе им
The official contract has been signed for the design of a new naval helo, the Minoga. There are reports that work had started before this. This contract is for the OKR so it would make sense a NIR preceded it.
Минобороны РФ заказало разработку перспективного морского вертолёта "Минога" -
Интерфакс - Агентство Военных Новостей - информация о военно-политической ситуации в стране, о деятельности Министерства обороны и других силовых министерств, о ситуации в Российской армии и Военно-промышленном комплексе России.
www.militarynews.ru
The third 20380 for the Pacific is also at trials, the Pacific Fleet badly needs more of these.
Корвет «Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов» вышел в море
Министерство обороны Российской Федерации сообщило, что утром 30 сентября 2020 года из Владивостока на заводские ходовые испытания впервые вышел корвет проекта 20380 Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов (заводской номер 2103), построенный для ВМФ России в Комсомольске-на-Амуре…
bmpd.livejournal.com
Корвет проекта 20380М "Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов" на ходовых испытаниях
Новейший корвет проекта 20380М Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов в точке якорной стоянки в районе Владивостока. Октябрь 2020. Фото http://forums.airbase.ru Как сообщает Минобороны России новейший корвет Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов, построенный…
dambiev.livejournal.com
The 5th 12700 mine trawler has been launched, it's planned for hold over in 2021.
Спущен на воду базовый тральщик «Георгий Курбатов» проекта 12700
30 сентября 2020 года на АО Средне-Невский судостроительный завод (СНСЗ, входит в АО Объединенная судостроительная корпорация - ОСК) в Санкт-Петербурге состоялась торжественная церемония спуска на воду строящегося для ВМФ России корабля противоминной обороны (базового…
bmpd.livejournal.com
A new ship-repair center appears to be opening in Tartus, turning it into a real base.
Тартус: обновление
. В последний день сентября в одном из сюжетов 1-го канала, посвящённом пятилетию начала российской военной операции в Сирии, был показан пункт материально-технического обеспечения ВМФ России в Тартусе (соглашение о расширении территории ПМТО и заходах российских военных кораблей в САР заключено в…
navy-korabel.livejournal.com
The Gorshkov has performed a Tsirkon launch. The launch was publicized unlike previous launches of the system, and struck a target ~450kms away.
Фрегат «Адмирал Флота Советского Союза Горшков» выполнил стрельбу ракетой «Циркон»
Как сообщило Министерство обороны Российской Федерации, 6 октября 2020 года из акватории Белого моря головной фрегат проекта 22350 Адмирал Флота Советского Союза Горшков впервые выполнил стрельбу гиперзвуковой крылатой ракетой Циркон по морской цели, расположенной в…
bmpd.livejournal.com
The idea of 6 new 20380 corvettes and 6 new 22800 small missile ships for the BSF looks good, and is likely on the VMF wish list. The problem is, however, that Russian shipbuilding is so slow that the VMF needs and the entire maritime doctrine could change before they build that many. This is what happened with 22350s, the OKRs took so long that by the time they finished, the VMF decided they need a bigger ship, the 22350M. At this point, the 20380, 20385, 22800, and 22350 is all they can and reasonably should build in the corvette-frigate class in the near time frame. The bottleneck is still engines and gearboxes, for the most part, and the building speed is far from fast enough to build brigades of these ships in reasonable time frames.
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Some interesting articles on Russia's naval doctrine and the state of its Navy.
calhoun.nps.edu
These suggest that corruption in shipbuilding and limited naval budget are the realities that may hamper Russia from accomplishing its stated naval doctrine and goals.
Russia’s New and Unrealistic Naval Doctrine
The Russian Navy is keen on showy demonstrations of strength. Just in the last week, it has begun an exercise with the Chinese navy in the Baltic Sea and
warontherocks.com
RUSSIAN NAVAL MODERNIZATION AND STRATEGY
calhoun.nps.edu
These suggest that corruption in shipbuilding and limited naval budget are the realities that may hamper Russia from accomplishing its stated naval doctrine and goals.
In recent years they've been able to put out 2 20380s per year. I don't think 3 years is enough time for the entire doctrine to shift. But even if they're down to 1 per year, 6 years is still not that long. That having been said, I'm not sure how exactly they plan to deploy their 22 contracted 20380s. The Pacific Fleet could realistically use 12, with 6 around Vladivostok and the south Kurils, while the other 6 would cover Kamchatka area. This could leave 4 in the Baltic and 3 each in the Northern and Black Sea fleets.
The 20380/20385 corvettes/frigates in particular, unlike most of the other types, have had relatively few problems with import substitutions, as most or all of their critical components were originally domestically sourced over a decade ago, although with some exception in the case of 20385, which ended up having to use engines from 20380 and has decreased characteristics as a result of that. Moreover, they are being built at two independent plants at the same time. I would expect this type to have much fewer problems than the other types to being built in large numbers, the more recent variants also receiving upgrades in the form of AESA radars that should solve the AA problems that plague the early versions. We will see how this goes forward.
Breaking News!
www.zvezda.spb.ru
Finally, 100% domestic engines for frigate 22350, including the gearboxes and the gas turbines have successfully completed tests and are going into serial production for the in-construction 22350's. The last barrier to speedy production of 22350's has been removed.
ПАО 'ЗВЕЗДА' - дизельные двигатели, дизель-генераторы, агрегаты, электростанции - 23.10.20 Редукторы для силовой установки фрегата пр.22350 успешно прошли испытания
ОАО 'ЗВЕЗДА' - ведущий российский производитель высокооборотных дизельных двигателей для судостроения и железнодорожного транспорта; дизель-генераторов и автоматизированных электростанций
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
No videos yet, just some photos. The delivery of the Volkhov, second of 6 ordered for the Pacific Fleet.
www.navalnews.com
On the right side we see a ship under construction. Which ship is this? Look like some kind of double hangar.
Russia's Pacific Fleet Accepts Delivery of Second Project 636.3 Submarine - Naval News
Admiralty Shipyard handed over the Volkhov diesel-electric submarine of project 636.3 to the Russian Navy, the enterprise said.
www.navalnews.com
On the right side we see a ship under construction. Which ship is this? Look like some kind of double hangar.
Attachments
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Built in the '80s, but still very active. Two of these ships are just spotted close the the British coast
www.navalnews.com
Navelnews talks about Project 684, but i think its a typing-error, if im not wrong these are Project 864 ships.
According to the article, ships of this class also operate sometimes close to the american coast and in the Caribian. Weird actually that the Russian navy doesnt use the larger Project 18280 or 1826 for such long range operations.
The Project 1559V large replenishment oilers are built in the '70s, are there any plans for new large oilers?
Two Russian Spy Ships Operating Near Important Military Base In Scotland - Naval News
Two Russian Navy intelligence gathering ships have taken up position off the British coast. H I Sutton has the story.
www.navalnews.com
According to the article, ships of this class also operate sometimes close to the american coast and in the Caribian. Weird actually that the Russian navy doesnt use the larger Project 18280 or 1826 for such long range operations.
The Project 1559V large replenishment oilers are built in the '70s, are there any plans for new large oilers?
IMO the problem with shipbuilding is the consolidation of most of the yards into USC. It hasn't worked.Some interesting articles on Russia's naval doctrine and the state of its Navy.
Russia’s New and Unrealistic Naval Doctrine
The Russian Navy is keen on showy demonstrations of strength. Just in the last week, it has begun an exercise with the Chinese navy in the Baltic Sea andwarontherocks.comRUSSIAN NAVAL MODERNIZATION AND STRATEGY
These suggest that corruption in shipbuilding and limited naval budget are the realities that may hamper Russia from accomplishing its stated naval doctrine and goals.
Project 23350 Arctic patrol vessels.No videos yet, just some photos. The delivery of the Volkhov, second of 6 ordered for the Pacific Fleet.
Russia's Pacific Fleet Accepts Delivery of Second Project 636.3 Submarine - Naval News
Admiralty Shipyard handed over the Volkhov diesel-electric submarine of project 636.3 to the Russian Navy, the enterprise said.
On the right side we see a ship under construction. Which ship is this? Look like some kind of double hangar.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thats a massive looking ship.
Do you maybe mean "Project 23550"?
Anyway, thank you for sharing!
Whoops that's a typo, these are pretty much the same size as the Canadian AOPS vessels but with a lot heavier armament.
I'll say one thing about Russian naval ship designs, they generally know how to build nice looking ships and were very fond of the clipper bows for a long time with the lines flowing back along the hull. Things of beauty built for any ugly purpose.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Armament on the RCN’s AOPS is an embarrassment.
Maybe but they aren't designed to take on a CBG, CGN,DDG or FFG are they. They are more a constabulary vessel that happens to operate in the Arctic. The RCN has a different philosophy and set of CONOPS to the VMF. Historically the Russians have always armed their ships for bear. Different culture so a different outlook, set of values, and they look at the world through a different lens to the west.Armament on the RCN’s AOPS is an embarrassment.