Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
While it is temping to classify ships by size it is their capability that should define them.
I think this can only hold true when we're talking about ships within a relatively small time period. Otherwise we end up with modern corvettes that are far more capable then WWI era cruisers. Also capabilities and size are related. You can only fit so man VLS cells into a given hull and with the increasingly universal nature of these launch tubes, they become an ultimate limit on your ability to perform function A vs function B. The USN in many ways dodges the issue entirely by deploying a fleet composed mainly of very large destroyers and light cruisers with nothing particularly smaller or larger, making classification less relevant.

However when looking at other navies, be they French, British, Australian, or Russian, we have to consider that while the 22350 frigate carries 16 cells, it doesn't mean they consistently have 16 AShMs available. Size matters and an 8000 tonn destroyer with 32-48 cells of UKSK, plus a navalized S-400 would bring more then just double the size. It would bring the ability to conduct sustained strikes against land targets while maintaining an AShM arsenal.

Outstanding capability in one area and some capability in others seems to define the frigate.
How would this apply to Russia's 22350 frigates? They seem to have all round capabilities without anything being outstanding or lacking. Or am I missing something? They carry a SAM comparable to British destroyers, an AShM loadout that's smaller then that of destroyers but more capable then most frigates, and while anti-submarine warfare isn't my forte, they're pretty much the most modern asset Russia has in that department as well. Given the shortage of actual destroyers, we may well see the type fill the role of destroyers in future VMF deployments, escorting the Kuznetsov or future LHDs in place of the aging 1155s.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think this can only hold true when we're talking about ships within a relatively small time period. Otherwise we end up with modern corvettes that are far more capable then WWI era cruisers. Also capabilities and size are related. You can only fit so man VLS cells into a given hull and with the increasingly universal nature of these launch tubes, they become an ultimate limit on your ability to perform function A vs function B. The USN in many ways dodges the issue entirely by deploying a fleet composed mainly of very large destroyers and light cruisers with nothing particularly smaller or larger, making classification less relevant.

However when looking at other navies, be they French, British, Australian, or Russian, we have to consider that while the 22350 frigate carries 16 cells, it doesn't mean they consistently have 16 AShMs available. Size matters and an 8000 tonn destroyer with 32-48 cells of UKSK, plus a navalized S-400 would bring more then just double the size. It would bring the ability to conduct sustained strikes against land targets while maintaining an AShM arsenal.



How would this apply to Russia's 22350 frigates? They seem to have all round capabilities without anything being outstanding or lacking. Or am I missing something? They carry a SAM comparable to British destroyers, an AShM loadout that's smaller then that of destroyers but more capable then most frigates, and while anti-submarine warfare isn't my forte, they're pretty much the most modern asset Russia has in that department as well. Given the shortage of actual destroyers, we may well see the type fill the role of destroyers in future VMF deployments, escorting the Kuznetsov or future LHDs in place of the aging 1155s.
There is no hard and fast rule and to be honest a navy could decide to call a frigate a destroyer, or either a cruiser, or even a corvette. Size counts but designed role and the actual level of designed in capability matters more. The Spanish call their F100 frigates, Australia calls theirs destroyers, when the USN reclassified their frigates most became cruisers while some became destroyers and when the Mitschner class DLs received a guided missile conversion they became DDGs. The Batch III Type 22 in the RN was called a frigate, even though its general purpose outfit gave it very different capabilities to the earlier batches.

This can be debated without ever coming to a consensus but I do believe reference should be made to the origins of the classification as well as its capabilities. Iran calls its copies of their old VT light frigates, destroyers, Australia's new frigates will be among the largest and most powerful and versatile ships the RAN has ever operated yet will likely still be called frigates and even though Japan would call an identical ship a destroyer.
 

Boatteacher

Active Member

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
One would have thought that an intelligence collection ship would have better situational awareness . . .
Intelligence collection ship is a rather grandiose name for a less then impressive civilian vessel adapted for military use and kitted out with ancient ELINT gear. Ship accidents happen, unfortunately.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
That spot is one of the busiest shipping passages in the world, with shallow waters.
I know, I know. My wife & I've stood by the ruined hilltop castle on the Asian side of the northern entrance to the Bosphorus, on a clear day (good view of all the ships), then dined in one of the many fish restaurants down by the Bosphorus, having got there by ferry from Eminonu, passing a steady stream of freighters of all kinds on the way.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
I know, I know. My wife & I've stood by the ruined hilltop castle on the Asian side of the northern entrance to the Bosphorus, on a clear day (good view of all the ships), then dined in one of the many fish restaurants down by the Bosphorus, having got there by ferry from Eminonu, passing a steady stream of freighters of all kinds on the way.
Similarly - I have watched from Eminonu as volumes of ferries criss-cross the Bosphorus at right angles to the traffic to and from the Black Sea.
I thought to myself at the time - "how do accidents not happen here?"
MB
 

Jkc13

New Member
The main Russian surface fleet project for the next decade will be Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov.

Specifications
4500t
4000nm range @ 16kt
29kt top speed
30 day endurance
crew of 210

Armament
2*8 Yakhont
4*8 9M96 missiles (The is 9M96 one of the missiles the S-400 system uses.)
2*4 Medvedka 2 VLS ASW
2 Sosna CIAD
130mm A-192

Command and Control
Redut AA Suite

Sensors
Poliment K-Radar
Puma Fire Control Radar

The VLS Shtil-1 will be offered to export customers only. There's no concrete information about the command and control and sensors of Admiral Gorshkov.

The Russians want to procure 20 Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov frigates.

If the Russians can fit the 32 9M96 missiles on the frigates,the frigates would be an excellent uses of the Russian Navy's limited resources. The Gorshkov frigates would be AAW/ASW frigates, and they could replace a wide range of vessels.



I don't think the Russians have the budget for new carriers and Kirov replacements. The better use of the resources would be replacements for the Slavas.
The Russian Navy is really wasting their money by trying to build massive ships to compete with the US because in the end the US can build bigger and better ships at a larger quantity.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Russian Navy is really wasting their money by trying to build massive ships to compete with the US because in the end the US can build bigger and better ships at a larger quantity.
It's not massive at all. It's a regular modern frigate. Granted the 16 UKSK slots are impressive, many of their counter-parts just carry 2X4 launchers for AShMs but otherwise this ship is unremarkable and in no ways competes with the US. If anything it's a downsizing, with frigates replacing destroyers as the basis of Russia's blue water capabilities (something that was officially mentioned in a recent speech).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some more updates, the 22800s are coming along at a rapid pace with the first allegedly to be handed over by the end of the year. I think this is unlikely, but the ship will likely be completed and possibly starting trials before end of year. You can see the second ship of the type in the background.

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/94873/
Рвот и фото головного "Урагана" - Добро пожаловать в журнал РоÑтовÑкого Орла

The first 20385 is also nearing completion. They're currently going to the northern fleet. It's interesting that the Baltic Fleet 20380s have yet to go to the Mediterranean despite much smaller 21631s making the trip from the Black Sea all the way to the Baltic. So there are some questions about the type.

nortwolf-sam: Корв‚ «Ð“ремÑщий» переведен из Ñллинга на открытый Ñтапель
 

Wall83

Member
The first 20385 is also nearing completion. They're currently going to the northern fleet. It's interesting that the Baltic Fleet 20380s have yet to go to the Mediterranean despite much smaller 21631s making the trip from the Black Sea all the way to the Baltic. So there are some questions about the type.

nortwolf-sam: Корвет «Ð“ремÑщий» переведен из Ñллинга на открытый Ñтапель
Didnt they go recently?

https://news.usni.org/2017/04/10/russia-sends-warships-toward-syria-following-u-s-tomahawk-strikes
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some updates.

Two new ship models surfaced at the recent display in St. Petersburg. One is a new 1980 tonn displacement corvette with allegedly 24 UKSK cells and a separate SAM VLS for 16 longer range and 32 short range missiles. The other looks like an upsized 22350. While there is a 22350M project in the works, the previous renders depicted a different design. It's supposed to be bigger by 2000 tonns. If this project goes ahead, then it could effectively replace the destroyers as the main blue-water combat vessel for the VMF. Personally I think this is a much more reasonable and realistic proposition then the ridiculous nuclear battlecruiser under OKR Lider.

https://rg.ru/2017/06/27/novejshij-rossijskij-korvet-predstavili-v-sankt-peterburge.html
Análisis Militares: Una fragata 22350 con esteroides

Gas-turbine M90FR engines have entered trials. If trials are successful production can resume for the 11356 series frigates.

ОДК приÑтупила к иÑпытаниÑм морÑких двигателей Ðœ90ФР - bmpd

The navalized Pantsyr has also made it's debut. It's meant to be mounted on the upgraded Kirov, and on some of the 22800s.

СоÑтоÑлаÑÑŒ Ð¿Ñ€ÐµÐ·ÐµÐ½Ñ‚Ð°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð¾Ð³Ð¾ корабельного зенитного ракетно-пушечного комплекÑа «Панцирь-МЕ» - bmpd

Finally and likely most importantly 3 more 11356 frigates are being ordered. The type isn't a bad vessels but has very weak anti-submarine capabilities. Likely the continuation of production of type is due to the slow pace of 22350 production. Two likeliest candidates for the 11356s are the Baltic Fleet and the Pacific Fleet. The Baltic Fleet has gotten very weak in general and the Pacific Fleet currently has no major surface combatants under construction for it.

ÎÑÊ: Ñòðîèòåëüñòâî ôðåãàòîâ òèïà "Àäìèðàë Ãðèãîðîâè÷" äëÿ ÂÌÔ ïðîäîëæèòñÿ
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
A 1980 ton corvette, which is lighter than a Project 20385 corvette, but it has 3x more VLS tubes for the 3M54 missiles and much more place for the SAMs than the 20385? Remarkable..

But indeed, an enlarged and heavily modified version of the 22350 Gorshkov frigate is much more realistic than the Lider-design..
 
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