Russian Air Force News & Discussion

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Su-22 could have been shot down with gunfire alone... with no air to air combat capability.
Correct, simply pointing out that this example does not demonstrate that "These days combat jets have such power EW it makes BVR virtually impossible"...
1. Agreed and weapons development is part of the systems fight between tertiary air forces. It would be much better if this discussion took into consideration AirPower resource threads created for new members, as follows:

(i) A brief history of LO (read this first, for the foundation to understand the other threads)​
(ii) Air Power 101 for New Members (read this second)​
2. Since the invention of airborne early warning aircraft like the Beriev A-50, advanced air forces, like that of Russia and China (or even Russia’s best client, India), no longer think in terms of plane vs plane contest. A number of Chief defence scientists, including that of Singapore have stated that our goal is:

(i) to acquire a systems capability [rather than too much focus on a single platform]; and​
(ii) to invest in key technologies that ensure a clear lead.​

Like Taiwan, Israel, Sweden and Finland, there are several other roads in Singapore which can be turned into alternate runways in emergencies. Exercise Torrent 2016 is a demonstration of alternate runway operations capability (on public roads) in the event of enemy attack on Singapore air bases. For a comprehensive discussion on this at NATO and USAF level against peer competitors, see this 2015 Rand Study.

...As I said earlier, I would submit to you that the significant investment we see in weapons like R-77, AMRAAM, Meteor, R37, PL12/15/21 etc indicates that quite the opposite is true.
3. Agreed. At a system of systems level, a tertiary air force needs to perform in all 4 roles of Air Power despite enemy attack (including, airborne early warning to vector fighters, air to air refuelling, SEAD and EW support).

4. The goal of a tertiary air force is be able to take an enemy’s first punch; thereafter respond to conduct Suppression of Enemy Air Defence (SEAD) missions, if required. Therefore, any new fighter aircraft like that of the J-20 or the Su-57 is not just to enable a country’s fighters to face-off against the enemy in close combat. Rather the goal is to have the systems to contest for control of the air and the electromagnetic spectrum at stand-off ranges.
(i) Israel and the US have demonstrated the importance of the conduct of the SEAD mission, via the dominance of the electromagnetic spectrum, in Bekka Valley in 1982 and in Gulf Wars I and II. Hence, the concern with electromagnetic space.​
(ii) In an 2011 interview with Vice Admiral David J. Dorsett, Deputy CNO for Information Dominance that discusses China's new military technology. Dorsett states in that interview that he is most concerned about is China's focus and attention on trying to develop capabilities to dominate in the electromagnetic spectrum, to conduct counter-space capabilities, and clearly to conduct cyber activities. Fast forward to 2020, the Australians and Americans have established an international agreement concerning the cooperative development of Airborne Multi-Platform Electronic Warfare capabilities (AMPEW Project Arrangement). “The AMPEW Project Arrangement establishes a cooperative project to jointly design, develop, test, and demonstrate dynamic multi-platform electromagnetic manoeuvre warfare resource allocation management (EMW RAM) tools and decision aids,” Air Vice-Marshal Roberts said.​
(iii) Small countries like Taiwan, Norway, Singapore or Finland cannot afford to buy too many different types of aircraft with the same or similar capabilities. Each aircraft type, be it the F-16V (for Taiwan), the F-35A (for Norway), STOVL F-35B or the F-15SG (for Singapore) or the HX project (to replace Finland’s Hornets), must enable these fighters to play a district role in their respective electronic order of battle — so that they are carrying the correct ordinance, pods (eg. the ALQ-184 self-protect ECM & EW pod used in Taiwan and the US) or EW hardware internally (in the case of the F-15SG), for efficient air tasking to perform the 4 roles of air power. Hence the focus on a systems fight at BVR ranges with a strong focus on stopping the enemy’s electronic attack and thereafter killing force multipliers like AWACS.​

Why not excel at both BVR and WVR?
5. If you read the above links, you would know that this is the wrong question to ask. Su-57’s agility is only a small part of its capability set and has been in development since 2002. It is considered a key part of Russia's arms export industry as a fifth-generation fighter to compete with rival systems such as America's F-35 aircraft. The jet made its first flight approximately ten years ago yet the widely advertised system has not yet been incorporated into the Russian military or any foreign militaries despite Russian promises to the contrary. There have been a series of recent test flights of the aircraft, including the deployment of a handful of prototypes to Syria in 2018 and 2019. Apparently, the jets did not conduct any live firing or strike missions, while the Kremlin has claimed otherwise without offering evidence. Furthermore, development challenges and recent crashes have continued to delay the advanced fighter bomber's initial operational capability (IOC) until the mid-2020s at the earliest.

6. Not only are advanced air forces learning to team both 4th and 5th generation fighters, at a systems level the USAF, NATO, and partners are training to defeat LO aircraft in air warfare, including the Su-57 and the J-20, which I believe has hit IOC. There are now reports on the F-117's aggressor support mission in Dec 2019 when evidence emerged of F-117s, flying under their now well-known "KNIGHT" callsign and working with 64th Agressor Squadron F-16s.
(i) These F-117s participated in a complex air combat exercise likely related to the prestigious USAF Weapons School. Now, it seems clear that this mission has migrated to the much larger Red Flag exercise.​
(ii) We do not like to use the word 'stealth', in the context of an intelligent discussion on the impact of LO on air warfare. A reader must understand that D + 1 and D + nn days of war are going to be conducted differently and to understand JSF program, a reader must understand this basic conceptual point. The JSF program also enabled the development a few key technologies that would benefit F-35s and other 4.5 gen platforms, like the F-15EX and block 3, F-18E/Fs, to enable the USAF and US Navy, to more effectively perform certain existing mission sets in slightly different ways and to take on new mission sets that was not previously possible on a fighter sized platform. This approach enhances the survivability of sympathetic platforms and will obviously bring some changes to the way of war.​
(iii) Having six F-117s during the last week of Red Flag 20-3 seems very similar to the strip alert-like tactics used by aggressors. Tonopah Test Range Airport was turned into the sprawling installation it is today thanks in part to its use as a clandestine location to fly captured Soviet fighters out of during the twilight of the Cold War.​
But, if it is truly “stealthy” of all it’s other attributes, why is turn radius so important?
Close combat should be the mode of last resort.
7. Agreed. Great counterpoint to the WVR arguments presented by HeimDefan.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Su-57 is built for agility. It has the widest wingspan out of all the 5th geners. This gives it the smallest turn radius.
As others have been alluding to, and OPSSG linked to information threads that were culled, collected and put out by members of the Mod team with imput from DT members with relevant defence and industrial experience on the specific areas, the kinematic performance (speed, turning radius, etc.) is of less importance in 5th gen fighters than it had been in prior fighter generations. The basic rationale for this change in importance is that a fighter just is not going to be able to match, nevermind overmatch the kinematic performance of modern air-to-air missiles. This fact, coupled with distributed/networked sensor/datalink systems, as well as HOBS and LOAL capabilities of modern missiles means that if a fighter is relying upon speed and maneuvering to either achieve success or manage to survive in air-to-air combat, then something has gone seriously wrong. It would be far better for a 5th gen fighter use it's improved situational awareness (SA) and LO features to take the optimal position, prior to the start of an aerial engagement. Absent a failure like a misfire or dud ordnance, launching a missile from within the missile's No Escape Zone (NEZ) at a hostile fighter that has already been targeted and locked on and while the targeted fighter is largely or entirely oblivious to the peril it is in, should pretty much result in a kill.

I think this claim needs supporting evidence. Widespread global investment in BVR AAMs (AMRAAM, PL12/15/21, R77/77-1/77M, R37M, Meteor, AAM-4B, MICA etc.) and the sensors to support them is not compatible with this view.
From my POV it is not just the investments in the ordnance, or even the sensors, but also the comms systems and datalinks, which can enable Fighter A to launch a missile at hostile fighter X, all based off targeting data received from Fighter C, or AEW&C B, and so on. This ability to share/receive data, and then collate it create a coherent and usable picture of a battlespace is an area I consider significant as well. After all, some of the modern missiles also have datalink capabilities, which means that a missile could receive in-flight targeting data updates.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
As is, the first aircraft have not yet hit the Lipetsk TsBP, which means the VVS has yet to really practice the CONOPS for the aircraft. I strongly suspect that the maneuverability requirements for the aircraft were quite high, traditionally with Russia/Soviet combat jet design, but far from the dominant quality. I would almost submit that these requirements are more of a left-over from previous design philosophies then an integral part of the proposed CONOPS for the Su-57 itself. Consider the multiple radars installed on it, consider the testing done on the Su-57 with the S-70 prototype, with the Su-57 flying as a controller for it (somewhat, even, reminiscent of the US Loyal Wingman program). I strongly suspect that the full potential of the platform will be quite different from traditional Russian fighter jet employment (it has to be if they really mean to move forward, and not be left behind in the 80s) and will surprise many of us with the directions it takes.
 

HeimDefan

New Member
The order is 78 Su-57. Which should be enough. Coupled with the current 98 Su-35 and 92 Su-30SM. It should be able to complement Su-35 and Su-30 to replace Su-27.

Keep in mind Russia is cutting defense budget and shifting budget to social sectors as it becomes more liberal over time.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The order is 78 Su-57. Which should be enough. Coupled with the current 98 Su-35 and 92 Su-30SM. It should be able to complement Su-35 and Su-30 to replace Su-27.

Keep in mind Russia is cutting defense budget and shifting budget to social sectors as it becomes more liberal over time.
Hang about, I'm losing track. Where did you get the figures for these orders? From the bookstore?

oldsig
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The order is 78 Su-57. Which should be enough. Coupled with the current 98 Su-35 and 92 Su-30SM. It should be able to complement Su-35 and Su-30 to replace Su-27.

Keep in mind Russia is cutting defense budget and shifting budget to social sectors as it becomes more liberal over time.
Russia's defense cuts have nothing to do with internal liberalization (or lack thereof). The budget was always going to be cut. That much was made clear as far back as 2011, when the Russian government openly stated that they will spike defense spending over the next decade to compensate for the underfunding following the fall of the USSR, after which defense spending would go down to more reasonable levels. And, unless something changes drastically, the current order for 78 aircraft is just the beginning. The VVS will continue to purchase the Su-57 for many years to come. By 2030 the Su-30SM will be a domestication of a 27 year old export Flanker variant. The MiG-31BM program currently doesn't cover the entire MiG-31 fleet, and there's a good chance it will be discontinued by 2027, meaning some of those aircraft will also be up for replacement (all of them really, eventually). Maybe the PAK-DP will work out, but I think it's far likelier that the Su-57 will be their replacement (what, with the budget cuts and all).

All of that having been said, my point had nothing to do with the number of aircraft ordered and everything to do with the fact that planned employment of the aircraft is still somewhat fuzzy, and what Su-57 combat usage will look like 15 years from now is an open question. It has a number of capabilities whose precise employment is unclear, and other developments which may or may not pan out (like using it in tandem with the S-70).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hang about, I'm losing track. Where did you get the figures for these orders? From the bookstore?

oldsig
The figures are mostly correct. Russia did indeed purchase iirc 98 Su-35S in two contracts, one for 48 and one for 50 aircraft. I don't recall off the top of my head how many Su-30SM went to the VVS and how many to the AVMF, but iirc it was about 110 total, so its close to what he listed. Also I think the VVS has phased out almost all non-upgraded Flankers. There may be a squadron or two left but not much more. Some UBs are still in service. There however 4 squadrons of Su-27SM and iirc 2 of SM3. There's a good chance that they're the replacement targets for the first Su-57s. The Su-27SM is a fairly unimpressive and on-the-cheap upgrade from the early 2000s. The SM3 is a more substantial one and some of them are new-built. Nonetheless I suspect all are inferior to the Su-30SM, which by today is no spring chicken itself.

However he's ignoring the MiG-31 fleet much of which will need replacing, there's still at least one squadron worth of ex-Algerian MiG-29SMT in service. It really remains to be seen how the VVS moves forward. The leaked production table suggests that replacing the Su-27s alone will take the rest of this decade. And by 2030 we're going to be looking at replacing a number of other platforms.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Close combat is still most important. Super Hornet shot AMRAAM at 1970s Su-22 and missed.
This is incorrect. The Super Hornet in question fired an AIM9X, which was likely a dud. No report of flares/IRCM being deployed from those involved in the incident – that idea was dreamed up in the blogosphere by Kyle Mizokami. The subsequent AMRAAM actually hit its target and successfully brought it down.

Thanks for posting to correct the deliberate mis-information being generated by HeimDefanso’s post. The Ja'Din shootdown incident occurred when a US Navy F/A-18E, shot down a Syrian Air Force Su-22 Fitter with an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile after it reportedly attacked U.S. backed Syrian Democratic Forces positions. Here is a video that recreates the sequence of events on 18 June 2017.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

The Il-112V has gotten its paint job and is continuing state trials.


The last two Su-34s from the 2012 contract were delivered, a new contract is in effect for ~20 aircraft, until the Su-34M is ready.


6 Su-57 prototypes seen at GLITs all at the same time.


Deliveries of the new Okhotnik UAV are planned to begin in 2020. Given its testing with the Su-57 it's unclear how this meshes with the new Grom "loyal wingman" concept.


The VVS took delivery of their first MiG-35S. Whether the type is truly needed or just an attempt to keep MiG functioning is an open question. The second link has some photos of the first aircraft at Kubinka.


The Ka-52M has had it's first flight.


Some images of the second serial production Su-57. 74 additional Su-57 engines are to be produced by 2028.


A new Russian heavy UAV called Helios was recently revealed. On display is a full size mock-up, and it's possible that this project is a backup, given the delays with the Altair project.


Another new heavy, presumably LO, UAV mockup was shown at Army-2020. It's the Grom (Thunder) and is designed to operate in ground-attack roles side-by-side with the Su-57 in contested airspace.


Some images of the control station for Russia's first domestic MALE UAV, the Orion. A contract for serial delivery of the type is in effect, and LRIP has already begun, with the MoD taking delivery of the first complex in April. Serial production is supposed to begin this year.


Also shown is another MALE class UAV, it looks like it's based on the Orion, but has two engines, and is called the Sirius.


Some small munitions meant for UAVs on display at Army-2020.


The Tu-160M2 and the Tu-22M3M are getting a new comms set up, compatible with the Su-57, as well as an improved navigation system for mid-air refueling and landing.


Yak-152 trainer deliveries are set to start next year.


Some images of the Almaz-Antey showing at Army-2020.


The new Abakan missile defense system being shown at Army-2020, it's clearly a further development of the Antey-2500 (S-300V4 domestically).


The VVS signed a record-sized contract for R-77-1 missiles at Army-2020, the amount of munitions is unclear but based on price and recent export prices, we're talking about thousands of missiles.


The first upgraded Tu-95MSM has flown.

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Russia releases footage of the world's biggest atomic explosion | Play Stuff



I have no idea if this is old footage or its just Russia showing off. Taken from “Stuff” this afternoon it states it’s the world’s largest nuclear explosion. I thought that all these tests were agreed that the went underground.
It's the Tsar Bomba and is old footage. It appears to have been just released. Here is something from a few years ago.

There were also rumours that the Soviets had one that was reputably twice the bang, so 100 mega tonnes, and they were to scared to test it. That thought that the Tsar Bomba was big enough. Bugger that for a game of soldiers.

This is the 40 minute video that was released 5 days ago. It's in Russian so put the subtitles on. At 50 seconds in the narrator says that the bomb was put into a "... aircraft bomb case capable of holding a bomb with a yield of 100 megatons or more."

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

A new anti-UAV system was displayed at Army-2020 combining EW, and a small SAM.


A new Tor-M2 missile is planned, a smaller one likely similar (possibly identical) to the Pantsyr anti-UAV small SAM.


An Su-35 has been seen with the launch rail for an R-37. The R-37M is the RVV-BD selection so its likely we will see the type continue to get integrated on new aircraft. This makes sense given the age of the MiG-31 fleet.


The third Mi-38T for the MoD and the first Mi-38 for SLO, the presidential administration's personal airline.


Another new Il-76MD-90A (Il-476) this is the 6th aircraft of the type under the contract for the MoD. This is in addition to two aircraft transferred to Beriev for conversion into special-purpose aircraft (at least one is the A-100 prototype), and one more Il-78M-90A prototype. The original contract for 39 aircraft has been modified into two contracts, one for 13 aircraft and another new contract for 14 more.


It looks like the Okhotnik UAV may be destined to also do air-to-air as an interceptor, possibly using off-board sensors.


An interesting look at the similarities between the Su-35 and Su-57. It's important to note that the Su-35 was from the get-go meant to carry some of the avionics and sensors destined for the Su-57.


Some photos of the Abakan ABM shown at Army-2020.


State trials for the S-500 have allegedly begun. I'm curious what exactly hides under the name "S-500".


In addition to earlier discussed contracts for combat aircraft (30 Su-35S, 24 Su-34s, 21 Su-30SM for the AVMF), the recent Army-2020 also saw contracts signed for 2 Il-112V, 25 Yak-130s, and 20 DA-42.

 

wsb05

Member
Updates.

A new anti-UAV system was displayed at Army-2020 combining EW, and a small SAM.


A new Tor-M2 missile is planned, a smaller one likely similar (possibly identical) to the Pantsyr anti-UAV small SAM.


An Su-35 has been seen with the launch rail for an R-37. The R-37M is the RVV-BD selection so its likely we will see the type continue to get integrated on new aircraft. This makes sense given the age of the MiG-31 fleet.


The third Mi-38T for the MoD and the first Mi-38 for SLO, the presidential administration's personal airline.


Another new Il-76MD-90A (Il-476) this is the 6th aircraft of the type under the contract for the MoD. This is in addition to two aircraft transferred to Beriev for conversion into special-purpose aircraft (at least one is the A-100 prototype), and one more Il-78M-90A prototype. The original contract for 39 aircraft has been modified into two contracts, one for 13 aircraft and another new contract for 14 more.


It looks like the Okhotnik UAV may be destined to also do air-to-air as an interceptor, possibly using off-board sensors.


An interesting look at the similarities between the Su-35 and Su-57. It's important to note that the Su-35 was from the get-go meant to carry some of the avionics and sensors destined for the Su-57.


Some photos of the Abakan ABM shown at Army-2020.


State trials for the S-500 have allegedly begun. I'm curious what exactly hides under the name "S-500".


In addition to earlier discussed contracts for combat aircraft (30 Su-35S, 24 Su-34s, 21 Su-30SM for the AVMF), the recent Army-2020 also saw contracts signed for 2 Il-112V, 25 Yak-130s, and 20 DA-42.

It is only sensible that a reduced visibility Okhotnik would be used in interception roles. Its large wings can be used to augment radar areas and detect or even obtain a weapons lock small and stealth targets if used in combination with other aircraft radars.

This plane was 2.5 tons overweight according to its designer.
https://www.ruaviation.com/docs/15/2019/7/29/245/

Link mentioning 800 KG weight reduction.
Замена за Ан-26: руска армија од 2023. године добија нови војно-транспортни авион Ил-112В

Finally Yak-152 is moving forward for a production next year. There is no indication on the engine to be used.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

The previously unheard-of Su-35SM variant has shown up at GLITs. It's unclear what this entails but it is about time to upgrade the type (it went into production in 2011).


A new S-400 loadout has shown up, with 4 smaller missiles in place of one of the larger ones.


An image surfaced of allegedly an S-500 TEL.


A image from Syria showing a 7.99km launch of the Vikhr ATGM.


Some images of what is allegedly the cockpit of an Su-25SM3 (different from the Su-25SM).


A ground-command post for the S-70 UAV has been contracted for 2025. Given that the UAV already flies, I'm assuming some sort of ground control set up already exists and this is more for the creation of a dedicated and possibly mobile command post.


A photo of the new radar-homing missile for mounting in the Su-57s internal bays.


And an image showing possible weapon options for the Su-57 including a new Izdelie-180 missile, an upgraded R-77 variant meant for internal weapon bays.


Here's a closer look at the Izd.180, the type likely has a modified seeker head, longer range, and foldable control surfaces.


We also have images of R-37M testing from the Su-35S.


I suspect nearly coming to blows with Turkey in recent years has led Russian leadership to re-asses where they stand on the need for new air-launched munitions. Things would have gotten ugly fast if brand new Su-35S had to go up against Turkish F-16s with nothing better then R-27 and only the occasional RVV-SD.
 

fozraro

Member
Tu-160M first flight with new engines completed

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

The first delivery of Orion UCAVs took place in October.


Vikhr-1 missiles are slowly proliferating through the helo units.


The second serial Su-57 has begun flight trials. Handover is planned before the end of the year.


An interesting shot that appears to reveal the bars covering the air intake on the Su-57S.


An upgraded engine for the Mi-28NM has completed trials on a testing stand. We should expect flight testing soon. 2 aircraft are supposed to be delivered this year, with 3 more in the next, and a total of 98 contracted.


A Tu-160M has flown with NK-32-02 engines. Resumption of production of the engines and bombers is a major part of maintaining Russia's strategic bomber fleet.


A miniature SAM is planned for the Tor, similar to the ones planned for the Pantsyr. This increases the combat load and provides a cheaper option for simpler UAV targets.


The second contract for the Su-35S has been completed. To remind; the first contract was for 48 aircraft, the second for 50, bringing the total to 98 delivered aircraft. Another contract (the 3rd) for 30 aircraft was sign this August.


S-300V4 systems have been deployed to the Kurils. The procurement of this SAM technically falls under the land forces, but realistically has much to do with airspace control given the size and range of the system. Additionally, it's often given far less media coverage then the S-400.


The 81st Air Transport Regiment has been reformed at Ivanovo. It's supposed to be equipped with upgraded Il-76MDM (not to be confused with the Il-476/Il-76MD-90A). This comes as the 4th Il-76MDM has begun testing. It appears that the VVS has finally gotten serious about upgrading their transport fleet.


Another Il76MD-90A has just had it's first flight, the third this year. It looks like production of the type is finally picking up, at least somewhat. None of the three have been handed over so far. A total of 12 aircraft have been built, with 1 factory prototype, 2 in the 610th TsBP for training, 2 have been handed over to Beriev for use a special purpose aircraft (likely the A-100 AEW program), one is being tested as the new prototype tanker, 3 are in the 235th Air Regiment, and 3 still awaiting handover.


A contract has been signed for 10 Il-78M-90A tankers has been signed.


The VVS has also received 2 Su-34s. These were tacked on to the large contract for 92 aircraft signed in 2012. A 3 year extension contract for 24 more aircraft was signed, while the Su-34M completes development.


The first S-500s are expected next year. It will be interesting to see how they relate/compare to the Abakan BMD shown at Army-2020.


Starting at 1:24, you can see an Su-24M taking off with an interesting looking pod underneath.


A new Russian laser system was recently spotted on a much smaller chassis, presumably meant for air defense. This does not appear to be related to the gigantic and presumably nuclear-powered Peresvet. A range of up to 5kms is claimed.

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The first serial production Su-57 has been delivered to the Russian airforce (actual first one crashed prior to delivery a year ago). The article mentions design changes and manufacturing improvements, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
If Russia plan to develop an affordable light 5th generation fighter, then i think they make more chance on the exportmarket with a single engine one, as an attractive replacement for the Su-22 and MiG-29.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
So, the PAK-DP / MiG-31 replacement program is officially started now, after all those years of rumours.
2028 is quite optimistic in my opinion, but luckily the MiG-31BM update will keep the fleet flying until after 2030.

 
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