Problem is a Corvette doesn't generate that much saving in crew numbers (E.g. Mogami class FF usually quoted as 90 crew vs MMPV90 corvette with 70 crew) while significantly degrading weapons load, seakeeping and range.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
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South Korea are one of the worlds top shipbuilding nations. As you say "Aotearoa" is an excellent example and prior to her "Endeavour". Once the design has been selected it rests with the design team on whether they will allow your selected shipyard to proceed with the build.
Accepted with a higher end version. Canada is looking at a deal for 20 corvettes at a build cost total of around 5 Billion dollars {US or Canadian).
to be called the Vigilant class. They are basic workhorses leaving the serious stuff to the river class now under construction. There are options that could be suitable for NZ without paying a premium price. Using a modular system gives more options. eg; A towed array Sonar system. A main armament comprising of a 5" or 3" main gun. 8 cell Mk41 VLS. 4 or 8 NSM may suffice. A crew of say 35 (-+} with up to 70 if required. Looking for a compromise between our OPV's and the high end Mogami. Suitable for convoy escort, EEZ and Pacific Island petrols. Provision for trainees needing sea experience.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
I agree there potentially could be an opportunity as (upgraded) replacements for the Protector-class OPV's. Like most navies the RNZN would prefer vessels with at least some "improved" capabilities (compared to what these OPV's currently have). There were mutterings about this back in the early 2000's (pre-internet discussions), which is hard to cite nowadays but Wiki gives us an idea of some of the RNZN's thoughts at the time.
Nowadays though (unlike back then), with various potential state actor threats and new technologies such as drone swarms to counter, there would surely be an identifiable need to move on from "like-for-like" in terms of an OPV replacement, which should be ditched for something better equipped to monitor activities in our near region and its sea-lanes (e.g. northern approaches, Tasman Sea and SW Pacific).
With an exception though for a ice-strengthened Southern Ocean OPV (SOPV) capability, purpose designed vessels to operate deep into the Southern Ocean and equipped to monitor surface and undersea activities. Now that the CCP has validated submarined launched ICBM's surely equipping such a vessel with towed arrays and other autonomous surveillance craft would be beneficial. I think we can look towards what the Canadians (AOPS) and the Scandinavian navies are developing in these areas to get us some insights for future options.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
The CDC is certainly an interesting development, and in some ways there are some general synergies with NZ in terms of operating in extreme cold weather environments. Wonder if there is any Defence interest in terms of information gathering?
CJR makes a good point on manning levels and therefore the need to replicate specialised skilled positions even on lower manned vessels, versus prioritising the needs for the primary combat vessels. So something else to manage.
Another potential option as OPV replacements to keep an eye on is the AH120. Initially a fairly basic concept, now with Babcock and Saab partnering to offer Sweden a solution to replace their Visby-class corvettes as part of the Luleå-class frigate programme it appears to be a more matured platform, featuring reconfigurable mission spaces, sonar, towed array, 16-VLS and low manning (80), all of which would surely be attractive for the RNZN's needs and future growth options for this region?
Perhaps if AH140 is selected to replace the ANZAC's then the AH120 could offer a similar platform/machinery/training/support platform synergies (as OPV replacements) for the wider RNZN fleet?
Can Babcock Win Sweden’s Next-Generation Frigate Contest?
The Luleå class frigate programme marks a decisive shift by the Swedish Navy to a larger, long-range surface combatant optimised for NATO operations in Northern Europe. Here, we consider Babcock and Saab’s joint proposal to meet the Swedish requirement. From stealth corvette to frigate The Luleå...
www.navylookout.com
I cant see Treasury going for a vessel this well armed to replace our OPV, if it came in cheaper than the Mogami or AH140 they would definitely push this type of ship as our Frigate replacement, yes we need a better armed OPV replacement but not one thats basically a lite version of our current ANZAC Class. Both Companies have good products on there books priorty should be our high end warfighting replacement first then bring on the OPV with the same CMS, equipment as close to the Frigate as possible so we dont fall down the rabbit hole again of the five different ships of our Protector Class.
The CDC is certainly an interesting development, and in some ways there are some general synergies with NZ in terms of operating in extreme cold weather environments. Wonder if there is any Defence interest in terms of information gathering?
CJR makes a good point on manning levels and therefore the need to replicate specialised skilled positions even on lower manned vessels, versus prioritising the needs for the primary combat vessels. So something else to manage.
Another potential option as OPV replacements to keep an eye on is the AH120. Initially a fairly basic concept, now with Babcock and Saab partnering to offer Sweden a solution to replace their Visby-class corvettes as part of the Luleå-class frigate programme it appears to be a more matured platform, featuring reconfigurable mission spaces, sonar, towed array, 16-VLS and low manning (80), all of which would surely be attractive for the RNZN's needs and future growth options for this region?
Perhaps if AH140 is selected to replace the ANZAC's then the AH120 could offer a similar platform/machinery/training/support platform synergies (as OPV replacements) for the wider RNZN fleet?
Can Babcock Win Sweden’s Next-Generation Frigate Contest?
The Luleå class frigate programme marks a decisive shift by the Swedish Navy to a larger, long-range surface combatant optimised for NATO operations in Northern Europe. Here, we consider Babcock and Saab’s joint proposal to meet the Swedish requirement. From stealth corvette to frigate The Luleå...
The CDC is certainly an interesting development, and in some ways there are some general synergies with NZ in terms of operating in extreme cold weather environments. Wonder if there is any Defence interest in terms of information gathering?
CJR makes a good point on manning levels and therefore the need to replicate specialised skilled positions even on lower manned vessels, versus prioritising the needs for the primary combat vessels. So something else to manage.
Another potential option as OPV replacements to keep an eye on is the AH120. Initially a fairly basic concept, now with Babcock and Saab partnering to offer Sweden a solution to replace their Visby-class corvettes as part of the Luleå-class frigate programme it appears to be a more matured platform, featuring reconfigurable mission spaces, sonar, towed array, 16-VLS and low manning (80), all of which would surely be attractive for the RNZN's needs and future growth options for this region?
Perhaps if AH140 is selected to replace the ANZAC's then the AH120 could offer a similar platform/machinery/training/support platform synergies (as OPV replacements) for the wider RNZN fleet?
Can Babcock Win Sweden’s Next-Generation Frigate Contest?
The Luleå class frigate programme marks a decisive shift by the Swedish Navy to a larger, long-range surface combatant optimised for NATO operations in Northern Europe. Here, we consider Babcock and Saab’s joint proposal to meet the Swedish requirement. From stealth corvette to frigate The Luleå...
Babcock missed this order as the contract was awarded to the French Naval Group for 4 vessels at $1B each.The CDC is certainly an interesting development, and in some ways there are some general synergies with NZ in terms of operating in extreme cold weather environments. Wonder if there is any Defence interest in terms of information gathering?
CJR makes a good point on manning levels and therefore the need to replicate specialised skilled positions even on lower manned vessels, versus prioritising the needs for the primary combat vessels. So something else to manage.
Another potential option as OPV replacements to keep an eye on is the AH120. Initially a fairly basic concept, now with Babcock and Saab partnering to offer Sweden a solution to replace their Visby-class corvettes as part of the Luleå-class frigate programme it appears to be a more matured platform, featuring reconfigurable mission spaces, sonar, towed array, 16-VLS and low manning (80), all of which would surely be attractive for the RNZN's needs and future growth options for this region?
Perhaps if AH140 is selected to replace the ANZAC's then the AH120 could offer a similar platform/machinery/training/support platform synergies (as OPV replacements) for the wider RNZN fleet?
Can Babcock Win Sweden’s Next-Generation Frigate Contest?
The Luleå class frigate programme marks a decisive shift by the Swedish Navy to a larger, long-range surface combatant optimised for NATO operations in Northern Europe. Here, we consider Babcock and Saab’s joint proposal to meet the Swedish requirement. From stealth corvette to frigate The Luleå...
Yes I agree with you here. NZ could use a European or Canadian design corvette for our SOPV as they are rated to work up to the Arctic Ice edges. Upgrade the main gun (3 or 5 inch) with a below deck magazine. Add 2" and 25mm to supplement. Could add the 8 cell Mk41 VLS {ex ANZAC frigates) and leave it at that . Provision to be made for modular additions interchangable with our new frigate choice. The main gun and VLS 8 cell would have to be installed during the build. No intention to compete with or alter the focus on our ANZAC frigate replacement.
Aluminium Hail
Member
Are there not Antarctic Treaty limits on the size and type of weapons that can be on a naval vessel in Antarctic waters?
My belief was no larger than 25mm cannon but a quick Google doesn't confirm that.
Edit to add: even if there were not explicit restrictions I don't think NZ would want to be seen as 'militarising' the Antarctic.
Yes there is limits I think 30mm but I believe not all run with this.
In the 1960's the US had ice breakers going south with twin 5inch 38;s fitted. My understanding was that the treaty applied to Antarctica it self, I have not found a reference to it involving a significant part of the waters around it.
Thanks for that.
Denmark is working on a replacement for the Thetis class arctic patrol ships. They've got through up to 1 metre of ice in service, I've read. 3500 tons, 76mm gun fitted as standard with two more flex fittings for Mk 56 VLS with ESSM or Harpoon. Last I heard, the new ships are expected to be about the same size or slightly bigger, after an earlier plan for ships of around 85 metres was rejected.
This would work, the AH 120 was designed with ice protection and by doing the fitted for but not with for most of the weapons except the main gun, peace time crew would be reduced. Salvaging and up dating the weapons and systems from the ANZACs and placing them in storage for fitment when required would reduce maintenance. their size and ice protection would make them useful in the southern ocean and in the event of conflict they could be easily re-armed, A useful concept.
New Zealand to ‘seriously’ consider Japan’s Mogami frigate: FM Peters
Interoperability with Australia’s navy will factor into decision New Zealand Foreign Minister Winston Peters says Japan and New Zealand should play a larger role on the security front.&n…
jcsmarinenews.wordpress.com
The RNZN Mk.41 VLS were returned to the RAN after they were removed from RNZN’s ships, I understand.
NZ no longer has any Mk.41 to install on these potential ships.
I’ll be amazed if the MK.45’s aren’t ported over to the ANZAC replacement as well…
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
I get where you are coming from although for better or worse that's not how it works. Put simply Governments will conduct a review and make their recommendations. Other Govt agency's are consulted and will provide responses (for example Treasury and other Govt entities). The Govt Cabinet will then discuss the review and the various other responses then make a decision and then a public announcement. This is typical of the Westminster model we follow. There are also other factors such commercial sensitivities and negotiations in play hence why politicians are meant to say so little (apart from "standard talking points").
For example the Australian Govt carried out an independent Surface Fleet Review which is driving their current fleet enhancement plans. The NZ Govt is carrying out a similar review (Maritime Fleet Renewal) albeit internally (see OIA document).
Another aspect for us to consider for the projected new naval fleet is that whilst in the past (particularly during the Cold War) the RNZN had a lot more surface combatants, they also had very few auxiliary vessels to support (in essence usually couple of larger second-hand vessels in support roles, as well as other minor craft). Nowadays there has been talk (from Defence themselves) of additional new sealift and replenishment vessels to sustain our needs and those of our allies operating in this part of the world, so the funding will also have to cover a broader fleet than what we have had in the past (plus their expensive sensor and data sharing systems) and now, other autonomous unmanned surface and undersea craft. Then there is sustainment, training and interoperability to factor in. So the Maritime Fleet Renewal project has a lot to plan for ...
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Apparently the Department of Defense has advised a formal request from the NZ Govt to purchase five MH–60R Multi-Mission Helicopters (and associated equipment, training and support etc) for 1.5b USD has been received. However probably best to wait for an official confirmation announcement (and an indication of when to expect formal air and ground crew training to start and the timeframe for deliveries, as none of that is clear yet).