Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Changing the current budget allocations is not the answer, we need to bite the bullet and be prepared to spend more to return to a more combat capable and balanced force for all services. The reason the budget is high for the army currently is simply because they have a higher wage bill, there are more of them and making them significantly smaller would simply make them not functionally viable.
The sad truth is Rob you cant make Army any smaller our Combat strength is way below peace time manning requirements, if you combine both Regular Infantry Battalions you would just scrape one Unit of 800 men & women with absolutely no ability to form a second rotation if another East Timor style intervention occured in our area of responsibility.

Riflemen are easy to train, Section 2ic, Section Commanders, Platoon Sergeants, CQMS, WO2, Lt, Captains, and Majors are not they require time, mentoring, internal exercising, TEWTs, School of Infantry Command Courses, Command Schools, overseas exercises all while trying to rebuild our Core Infantry skills that were degraded to the point of disappearing.

Lastly if our Infantry Battalions are struggling it has a direct impact on our only tier 1 unit NZSAS where the majority of troopers are recruited from but as this is a RNZN thread I will leave it at that. Time to pay the bill by our Government and fund a proper NZDF fully with the tools, manpower & support it needs to carry out our Government Policy.
 

kiwi in exile

Well-Known Member
Collins confirms New Zealand is finalising a decision on two new frigates – either the Japan-designed Australian-manufactured Mogami-class, or the UK’s Type 31 frigates, which she says are cheaper. “If I knew right now what the answer was, I probably still wouldn’t tell you, because we probably want to announce it,” she says. “But no, we haven’t made any decision yet.” Proves NZ are slow learner's 2 frigates is not enough only got look when upgraded frigates in Canada left NZ with no means of patrol and response for month's if true is sad day for NZ.

I hope this is mis-communication and we have options for >2 IE 3-4. Not a fan of Coillins or this gov't. Despite all the tough talk in interviews etc, this is less than what is needed to meet the policy goals in the increasinly tense new geo-pol order/disorder . Going with just 2 for 2 "like for like" platform replacement, illustrates my comments from prev post, and shows she has. no actual grasp of the context/issues she laid out in interviews, or she was happy to talk tough knowing that she could cynically continue to kick the can down the road.

Hope fully there will be an announcement soon.
 
I hope this is mis-communication and we have options for >2 IE 3-4. Not a fan of Coillins or this gov't. Despite all the tough talk in interviews etc, this is less than what is needed to meet the policy goals in the increasinly tense new geo-pol order/disorder . Going with just 2 for 2 "like for like" platform replacement, illustrates my comments from prev post, and shows she has. no actual grasp of the context/issues she laid out in interviews, or she was happy to talk tough knowing that she could cynically continue to kick the can down the road.

Hope fully there will be an announcement soon.
Where or when did Minister Collins actually state that we would be procuring only 2 ANZAC replacements? I have been searching for a source or media release but have been unable to do so?
 

Viper92

New Member
Not sure if the two is was actually stated by Collins or has just been assumed by the journalist but in the press conference transcript Collins only said it was down to the two options for replacement not how many.
In relation to the replacements for the frigates, we are going through the process of actually working out which ones we want. So we're obviously down to two choices. One of them is the Mogami, but one of them is also one from the UK.

Still, it wouldn't surprise me if they only went for two replacements or two with options for another two that never happen.

 

Warhawk

New Member
If you look at costing on that article they saying 4-6 B including weapons that only cover cost of 2 Mogamis cost $1.8-1.9B excluding weapons.
 
Not sure if the two is was actually stated by Collins or has just been assumed by the journalist but in the press conference transcript Collins only said it was down to the two options for replacement not how many.
In relation to the replacements for the frigates, we are going through the process of actually working out which ones we want. So we're obviously down to two choices. One of them is the Mogami, but one of them is also one from the UK.

Still, it wouldn't surprise me if they only went for two replacements or two with options for another two that never happen.
I also agree that the journalist may made one or more assumptions. The actual transcript does confirm that the selection is down to two types rather just two ships.
I also believe he assumes because of the close cooperation agreement that Australian built Mogami are already a done deal.
The 2025 NZ Defence Capability Plan indicates a mid 2030s replacement date. I query this timeframe given Australia's own requirements and schedules.
I would suggest two or more ships ordered from the experienced Japanese builders would be a more economic and risk-free option.
 

Warhawk

New Member
Key Timeline Milestones:
2026: Target for signing formal, binding contracts for the SEA 3000 project.
2029: Delivery of the first Japanese-built Mogami-class frigate.
2030: First ship enters service with the Royal Australian Navy.
2034: Remaining two Japanese-built ships delivered to completed.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Guys ... classic example of a journalist interviewing his own keyboard and making things up misinterpreting the situation.

Firstly the journalist has made an assumption that "NZ will buy Australian-made Mogami frigates". Now there is no actual proof of that in the Minister's ANZMIN statements (i.e. no such thing was stated, nor would it be at this point in time anyway) and as we know on here our Aussie & US mates (in particular) advise us that Australian production timeframes wouldn't likely see NZ receiving Australian built Mogami's until well past the timeline to replace the NZ ANZAC's which is the early-mid 2030's. But it is a discussion between the two Governments which may or may not eventuate, or even see Japan building them. Or not, if the T31/AH140 is selected (which could tick the other Govt box of potentially greater NZ industry participation).

Secondly regarding the journalist's figures on Mogami costs ("conservatively costed at $4-6 billion including armaments"), again as we know on here our Aussie and US mates state any costs quoted by the AusGov include a whole range of extras eg assembly setup, sustainment, operating costs for several years etc, so who knows what the actual vessel acquisition costs would be for NZ (CapEx). Then to cap it off the cost of a UK built T26 Batch 2 (acquisition cost) worked out to be under NZ$2b a couple of years ago (approx $1.7b IIRC) according to one of the UK defence sites (might have been Navy Lookout) and the T26 is a much more complex ship than a Mogami or T31 so I wouldn't get too hung up on a reporter's guestimate figures at this point.

Thirdly on numbers Viper and Pepe are correct, the selection is down to two types - Mogami and T31/AH140, not two vessels. Sure whilst that cannot be ruled out, it would be an unlikely outcome if we factor in how NZ ended up with only two ANZAC's (which has been covered to death here over the years) but the political situations which caused that outcome are totally different to the political situation today.

Meanwhile Japan is pushing the Mogami (again it is written from their perspective).
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I don’t disagree with much of the recent commentary about the importance of having a respectable naval fleet that includes having modern frigates.
That said I’ve often posted NZ needs to figure out what its broad navy looks like and how to fund it.
Upshot it appears NZ have no commitment in dollars for the type of defence many of us on DT think / believe is the minimum requirement.
So here’s the challenge.
Acknowledgment of the above suggests hard choices to be made.
The Army article was good in that it begs the question of change. We may not like its proposal but the question is prudent.

I’m reluctantly of the opinion that two frigates is such a minimal capability that it’s not the dollars.
Capability is availability.
Two does not work
Spend frigate dollars a different way
Therfore other options should be explored
This would be a very different looking Navy and suggest Airforce

Cheers S
I did up reading the entire article written by the former Army officer and some of my conclusions are that either the officer was writing, rather authoritatively IMO, about a subject which he really was not familiar with, or else the former officer was aware of the issues with his article and was being deliberately misleading, dishonest or disingenuous.

For those who follow naval matters and/or those who have served especially in a naval or maritime capacity, one is aware that different types of vessels have different hullforms and that these differences exist for a reason, because the hullforms themselves can provide different capabilities. Hulls which lend themselves to operating in very shallow waters could run into stability or seaworthiness issues if they attempt open water transits in higher sea states or rough weather. Flat-bottomed hulls which might lend themselves to safely grounding ashore to land troops, kit or supplies might likewise be less suitable for open water ops. Similarly, vessels featuring bow doors and/or drop ramps, all of which lend themselves to beach landings, are likely going to be less able to maintain high transit speeds. Looking through various LST derivative designs, it seems they generally have speeds around 12 - 15 kts which could make attempts to have LST-hulled escorted become problematic since at least some merchant vessels have higher transit speeds.

Secondly, the author also appeared to suggest that adopting mission modules could allow NZ to fit capabilities to other vessels, apparently in the belief that one could have some/all frigate capabilities without having frigate-like costs. If this impression is accurate, then the idea itself is hugely inaccurate and unrealistic. For starters, the old adage that steel is cheap and air is free comes to mind. Yes, a modern advanced frigate is an expensive endeavour. However, that expense is not due to the vessel being a frigate, but is rather due to the costs of the systems installed to enable a frigate to have the capabilities it has. I forget exactly where on the forum I first encountered this, but IIRC modern warships with advanced sensor, electronics and CMS fitouts typically have something like over a third to half the initial/purchase cost of the vessel come from the sensors, CMS and electronics.

Now sure, a ship could of course be developed with sockets or slots to take mission modules, but without the architecture as well as installed sensors, electronics and CMS, those modules are going to be largely ineffective at best. Going back to the idea of taking an LST-120 and fitting modules for air defence, ASuW, ASW, etc. once the needed sensors and electronics get installed into the vessel, then one is no longer looking at an inexpensive vessel. For those who might think that some modules could be both self-contained and effective, i.e. not need external ship sensors, that might be true for some of the less capable self-defence systems that might be equivalent to SeaPhalanx or SeaRAM. However, if one were to try and install more capable air defence missiles like Sea Ceptor, ESSM, or even something larger/longer ranged, then the ship itself would need more powerful and appropriately located sensors to detect threats further out. There would then also need to be an internal network as well as a combat system to manage sensor contact information as well as coordinate the response. Again, all of this is expensive and part of why smaller warships like the K130/Braunschweig-class corvettes cost close to five times what similarly sized OPV's like HMNZS Otago do. The first batch of the German corvettes cost €240 mil. per vs. NZD$110 mil. which once one adjusts for currency conversion would have worked out to ~NZD$508 mil.

Now me being me, I would like to see the RNZN and RAN make greater strides in adopting and fielding containerized modules and systems. My desire for this is that I think, if done properly, it could enable RNZN and RAN vessels to be more flexible in terms of capabilities whilst on deployment without requiring extensive time in a yard. Similarly, if modules are maintained in a pool arrangement, then if one module use ends up malfunctioning or requiring maintenance, it might be able to get swapped out or replaced quickly without disrupting a deployment.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry, Kiwis, but it looks to me like code for “we’re going to bludge off the Aussies”.
No need to apologise Spoz we all know this is the default setting of all our Political Parties treat Defence like the stepchild.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
No need to apologise Spoz we all know this is the default setting of all our Political Parties treat Defence like the stepchild.
We used to able to do that wrt the US. Now we need to invest (with them as an added threat, albeit a threat that can't really be dealt with accept for wacko militia groups crossing the border).
 
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