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Royal New Zealand Air Force

Discussion in 'Air Force & Aviation' started by Lucasnz, Jul 17, 2006.

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  1. Kiwigov

    Kiwigov Member

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  2. Gibbo

    Gibbo Active Member

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    I have no doubt NZ MoD, NZDF, RNZAF et al are well aware of the issues. The article clearly indicates the quality (or lack thereof) of AirBus & partners support and given everything described in this article I'd be very surprised if we ever see any in RNZAF service.
     
  3. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps it is time to consider sticking a turbofan on these planes instead of trying to fix the seemingly unfixable EuroProp. Might loose some rough runway capabilities but at least the deployment rate should improve.
     
  4. Norm

    Norm Member

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    'Nimbies' threatening Whenuapai's future: Defence Minister

    Google Nimbies threatening Whenuapai future.For more info,
    A Property Developer who brought land next to the base has lodged a claim in the Environment Court over engines being run at night.Interestingly discussion about base location is getting attention.The decision not to base Singapore F15s was because of a lack of proper air bases across NZ for the Airforce.

    Also one for the NZ Navy thread , review of the bases future relocation is being considered.Having the Nats offer up the Navy Housing for a treaty settlement (vacant after 10 yrs I recall)it is now a retention problem giving Auckland Housing affordability .
     
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  5. Gibbo

    Gibbo Active Member

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    An evening’s random googling has dug up a number of links that could suggest the problem may not be with the noise itself, but that the council has delayed making a call that has resulted in a delay to building. That could be why Auckland Council is the first respondent rather than the MoD.

    Note the last link is a rather arrogant take on NZDF capability but it does include a statement:
    When the council’s planners proposed in December either withdrawing plan change 5 altogether, or varying it to take account of the new noise contour research, the QC acting for subdivider submitters Cabra Developments Ltd & Neil Construction Ltd, Russell Bartlett, said in a 21 December letter to the council the Defence Force’s original evidence “had exaggerated the noise effects of engine testing”...

    … so could Neil Construction be basically taking Council to court to force them to make a decision & impose current designations so that they can get building (re) started?

    I guess at least a final determination would provide some certainty for RNZAF... I doubt night flying itself would be stopped, especially SAR taskings. Hopefully MOD / NZDF will do their homework & send a capable person with necessary legal aptitude & a well prepared argument along to the hearing. Unfortunately the 'we were here first' argument carries no legal weight per se in NZ, just ask the Western Springs Speedway all about that!

    Noise from Defence Force planes delays new homes | Scoop News
    https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz...5-whenuapai-noise-aircraft-engine-testing.pdf
    Neil Construction Limited v Auckland Council [2019] NZEnvC 62 (5 April 2019)
    https://www.environmentcourt.govt.n...-000260-Auckland-Council-Notice-of-Motion.pdf
    https://www.propbd.co.nz/whenuapai-...il-committee-agrees-to-recommended-variation/
     
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  6. Novascotiaboy

    Novascotiaboy Active Member

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    With the geographic centre of NZ being near Nelson, Woodbourne is stratgically located near the mid point of the Country. With its existing infrastructure and by the looks of satelite imagery it could easily expand if required. In fact imagery today shows four C130s, a B350 and a P3 on the ground.

    As has been stated by others moving all training functions here could allow Ohakea to handle the larger aircraft from Whenupai as well as the NH90s.

    The naval helicopters can be co-located at new facilites where ever Devonport relocates too. Then sell off the defence estate no longer required as it appears to be a burden on the limited budget.
     
  7. Rob c

    Rob c Active Member

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    Woodbourne is hemmed in by a lot of very expensive grape country and I don't think defence has any additional land available, also there is a dyked river at one end and a dyked flood parth at the other limiting the length of runway expansion , I don't think there is any reason why flying training could not be moved there but the short runway and the difficulty in any expansion without buying some very expensive land would limit its usefulness for other purposes. Ohakea on the other hand has significant land reserves to the east and south for expansion and realigning the main runway so that it no longer aligns with Sanson would improve the noise problems that the town can have.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 8:40 PM
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  8. Novascotiaboy

    Novascotiaboy Active Member

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    Rob there definitely is a lot of vineyards but it looks like there is an undeveloped area to the south that has been kept free from agricultural development that would allow an extension to the asphalt runway. Looking at the satellite imagery again I can discern what looks like a parallel grass strip to the main runway. I also think that there may have been an angled runway at one time but I could not locate any photos in my quick look. Or has the size of the RNZAF withered to the point that Ohakea could be the single air base for the nation?
     
  9. At lakes

    At lakes New Member

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    I can confirm there was an angled grass runway at Woodbourne many moons ago. SAFE Air B170's used it on rare occasions depending on wind strength and direction and the Harvard's sometimes deployed from Wigram to Woodbourne and they used to fly directly over our house to line up for a never ending series of touch and go, used to drive my mother up the wall. That was back in the early 60's don't know what has happened since
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019 at 2:40 AM
  10. Rob c

    Rob c Active Member

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    The southern boundary of Woodbourne is a dyked stream that is usually dry in summer, but can turn into a raging river when it foods during winter and while it would not be insurmountable to divert it further south, I think it would be both expensive and time consuming by the time you get past the RMA , local protesters and time wasters and financial considerations.
    There has been talk of a super base, but whether this would be Ohakea or somewhere else is just at this stage conjecture
     
  11. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Remote sensing, such as satellite imagery, is a great suite of tools and provides a significant amount of information, however it doesn't provide all the information such as detailed population distribution, statistics, dynamics etc. So in discussions like this it should be used in conjunction with other sources of data. As Rob has explained, Woodbourne is definitely a no go for a runway extension. For one thing, the 06 - 24 runway departure / approach flight paths go right over Blenheim and their would be significant opposition to increased daily heavy turboprop and medium and heavy jet aircraft operations. Blenheim is also a popular retirement destination because of the Marlborough Sounds close by and other enticements. Also there are vineyards at either end of the runway which has dimensions of 4675 x 197 feet. In comparison Ohakea's 09 / 27 runway dimensions are 8021 x 148 feet and 15 / 33 runway dimensions are 6853 x 148 feet. Logically if WB's runway is to be extended then you would be looking at a runway length somewhere in between OH's 15 / 33 and 09 / 27 runways, so the vineyards at either end will be impacted for quite a distance when you include the landing aids and approach guides. Those vineyards produce world renown wines, so will be expensive to procure.
     
  12. Novascotiaboy

    Novascotiaboy Active Member

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    So Woodbourne is impacted by commercial agricultural encroachment. Whenupai is impacted by housing requirements. Ohakea seems to be able to expand if required so then of the three bases makes sense to centralize at Ohakea to me.

    If the military assets at WB and WP were sold what would be the revenue expectations that could help offset the additional construction at Ohakea?

    Could investments be made at Mangaree and Christchurch to allow for regular NZDF use?
     
  13. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    I am of the opinion that WB won't be sold because it's a military / civil airfield and there is a significant non NZDF aviation employer at the airfield in the form of Airbus (formerly safe Air). The base itself important to the regional economy and the loss of the base could be a political risk in a seat that's not urban.
     
  14. MrConservative

    MrConservative Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes. Air Movements CHCH / Op Deep Freeze will need facilities upgrading in the next few years. As for AIA with the second 3200m runway and 3rd terminal going in north of the current international terminal and plenty of space for expansion there is scope for a sub or small footprint base there.

    I would be inclined to leave WB as is for the time being and shift to OH with expanded air movement - sub base facilities at AIA and CHC. There is plenty of scope at OH and of course the s10 of the Defence Act 1990 to move on a couple of landowners nearby if need be. ;)
     
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  15. Novascotiaboy

    Novascotiaboy Active Member

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    Ngati your comments have been heard here in eastern Canada when numerous redundant bases were closed and transferred to local authorities to manage. Some have continued to provide local employment and low cost housing while others in more remote area were shuttered and demolished.

    One would think that Airbus will function without the RNZAF present. The empty military housing will be quickly snapped up by further retirees or young families able to obtain jobs vacated by military spouses and the airport will continue to operate if there is local support from the residents of the area and tourists wanting to come for the wine and vistas. What will change is the subsidization of the airfield by the RNZAF budget.

    The centralization of air operations at Ohakea will bring equal or more benefits to this area. The larger center of Palmerston North will offer greater job opportunities for spouses and educational opportunies for their children.

    With the majority of air ops at Ohakea there will benefits of scale where redundancy can be reduced and thus freeing up more $$$$ for infrastructure or equipment.
     
  16. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Again do your research. The airfield is owned by the the RNZAF. Secondly, their are plenty of employment opportunities in Blenheim and surrounding region for spouses plus educational opportunities for secondary school children. I would argue that the Blenheim area is a far more desirable location than Palmerston North and doesn't have the problems of Palmerston North, plus the climate is better. Ohakea is what 40 km from Palmerston North and about the same from Wanganui. It has no shelter from the prevailing westerlies that originate in Antarctica and travel over the Great Southern Ocean which generally is a tad on the cold side. Whereas whilst Blenheim is cold in the winter, partly due to katabatic winds, it has gloriously hot summers and is only about 10 km, if that, from WB, plus a 30 minute drive from some of the best salt water boating and fishing in NZ. Oh and one sunken Soviet ship.
     
  17. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    The concerns that I have about AIA is the cost of the footprint there and the cost of living for the people based there. Those Aucklanders charge like a herd of wounded bulls. At least us Cantabrians look you straight in the eye through our red and black eye patches when we relieve you of your purse. In all seriousness though, if WP & DNB close, I don't see a need at all for a RNZAF presence at AIA. If they need to do anything with the bods from Papakura, they could either use Ardmore for rotary wing and AIA for fixed wing, maybe come to some arrangement with Air NZ for access near their engineering complex well away from the public terminals, as and when required.
     
  18. Xthenaki

    Xthenaki Member

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    If you looked at additional sub bases with small footprints for HADR/SAR. MPA (Coastal) ops. How would Invercargill and an upgraded KaItaia work considering their strategic positions.
     
  19. Ocean1Curse

    Ocean1Curse Member

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    Well I think it is totally ridiculous that NZDF planning be undone by a..., property speculators.

    If these economic nobodies on the peripheries want to make a buck by moving defence bases around okay fine. But at least have a better excuse for moving military bases around than oh, the noise disturbs my pet dogs morning Doo Doo.

    What is going one here? I want to go a step further. Let's say some fantastic noise reduction happens, what's to say that makes anyone satisfied and further happy? This is an ambiguous thing.

    So there's 3 conditions I will claim that makes people happy. One is material wealth. If you have your favourite coffee every week eventually it will turn you off so in order to make people happy you have to take there favourite thing away once per month.

    The second is you can't have a perfect democracy. You have to be able to blame something for taking away your favourite coffee. In this case an Airforce Base because of noise restriction or some equally pathetic complaint. In this way NZDF gets blamed for a lot more pathetic examples than the ones given here.

    The third is this desire to nurture this fragile happiness and move beyond it to disturb it. Some have mentioned and included wives in there planing, but not nearly enough in my opinion. Imagine we perfectly integrate NZDF into the rest of the economy like a Lego set fits particularly well together and some one falls in love, gets emotional, fidgety. It would be a disaster so this happiness has to include drinks with friends every now and then and maybe a one night stand.

    My instant answer would be stripper poles and gyrating hips everywhere. Okay, some people prefer managing 4 legged brothels and others prefer two legged ones. But the idea is when ever you find happiness something always comes over and destroys it. To be more precise I don't think NZDF planners should be moved if they get one more or one less complaint from a wobble or what ever. Just get started on redeveloping a winning culture.
     
  20. MrConservative

    MrConservative Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The cost of housing around the West Harbour area close to WP is already in existence and effecting a large airbase with over 1200 people working there. Within 15 minutes of AIA there are reasonable suburbs with QV's around $100-200K less and that will only apply to at most a tenth of the current WP muster if there was to be an Air Movements - Sub Base facility at AIA to support future air logistics operations and naval aviation or indeed for the NZDF to have operational access into New Zealand's only metropolitan area - which was a significant strategic reason why the WP closure did not precede 15 years ago.

    With the P-8's going to OH there is no longer a valid reason to have WP as a full base - especially when Auckland needs housing, schools, hospitals as its population closes in on 2 million. 40 Squadron should follow them. Ardmore is owned by a private company - again it is at risk of residential development as Auckland population grows by a Whanganui every 12 months. Rennie Lines is just 15 minutes drive away on the South Western Motorway to AIA.

    Airport expansion plans with respect to the 2nd 3200m runway and 3rd terminal which will be operational in a few years and the possibilities for secure space for a Defence aviation facility is the logical and most cost effective approach freeing money for further capabilities.
     
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