Royal New Zealand Air Force

[RegR]

I dare anyone to say there will not still be substantial numbers of Hercs in AF service on 23 Aug 2054 to celebrate its centenary.

Well there were still (still is) substantial numbers of the UH-1H type in service when we finally got rid of ours but what does that mean? Even with the vast numbers of blackhawks around the world now we still gambled on the tech and capability not nesscessarily the design and history despite the seemingly well proven capability. Guess it all depends on what we need now and in the future not just now and that's all part of the difficult decision making process we currently find ourselves in.

In saying that the realist in me can see a C130j fleet taking over if A400 does not drastically up their game and correct their course but for the sake of RNZAF air transport I am not entirely opposed to that option as it is definately still a good platform, as proven by our current fleet and its longevity.

 

[MrConservative]

The C2 and KC390 need time to follow through with production and would both be excellent aircraft to purchase providing they live up to expectations. In the interim we probably need 2-3 Hercules C130 -J30.s to fill the immediate role (Maybe Sea Hercules or Kc130 variant for subsequent use)

It was made pretty clear in the Strategic Defence Policy Statement at clauses 240, 241 and 248 that acquisitions which are significantly interoperable with our defence partners, particularly FEYS are an imperative. NZ has begun a formal defence and security relationship with Japan through the 2013 Memorandum of Intent on Defence Cooperation which included working towards a acquisition and cross-servicing agreement which the US has and iirc Australia as well under Abbott. NZ-Brazil getting that far in light of the latest statement would have some fairly large hurdles. Thus over time the C-2 would have a better chance than the KC-390.

 

[MrConservative]

Well there were still (still is) substantial numbers of the UH-1H type in service when we finally got rid of ours but what does that mean?

Like the C-130 the Huey is still deemed relevant even in the context of the worlds most advanced and capable military force. And the simple workhorse that the Huey is can be air deployed by the C-130J. The UH-1Y is still in production which says the USMC will likely be flying them well into the future.

 

[Xthenaki]

It was made pretty clear in the Strategic Defence Policy Statement at clauses 240, 241 and 248 that acquisitions which are significantly interoperable with our defence partners, particularly FEYS are an imperative. NZ has begun a formal defence and security relationship with Japan through the 2013 Memorandum of Intent on Defence Cooperation which included working towards a acquisition and cross-servicing agreement which the US has and iirc Australia as well under Abbott. NZ-Brazil getting that far in light of the latest statement would have some fairly large hurdles. Thus over time the C-2 would have a better chance than the KC-390.

Understand and fully accept the above.
A new development.- A seperate joint venture between Boeing and Embraer will be dedicated to developing new markets for defense products most notably the K390 multimission aircraft ref - CNN Money (July5 2018) The bottom paragraph of BOEING and BRAZIL,S EMBRAER form $4.75 billion commercial jet venture. Sounds like its on again (Resurrected)

 

[MrConservative]

Understand and fully accept the above.
A new development.- A seperate joint venture between Boeing and Embraer will be dedicated to developing new markets for defense products most notably the K390 multimission aircraft ref - CNN Money (July5 2018) The bottom paragraph of BOEING and BRAZIL,S EMBRAER form $4.75 billion commercial jet venture. Sounds like its on again (Resurrected)

Good for them but it is not on for us Naki. If the US, OZ, Singapore, UK, and Canada were operators then it might be possible - but this commercial tie-up is seeking different customers in different markets.

 

[John Fedup]

Good for them but it is not on for us Naki. If the US, OZ, Singapore, UK, and Canada were operators then it might be possible - but this commercial tie-up is seeking different customers in different markets.

Agree although 20 years from now these two partners may collaborate more closely on military projects. Airbus and Bombardier need to consider future military collaboration as well, e.g. MPA, future 5+/6th fighter possibly with Japan and the U.K. assuming the Brexit exit doesn't poison collaboration with Airbus.

 

[Rob c]

Good for them but it is not on for us Naki. If the US, OZ, Singapore, UK, and Canada were operators then it might be possible - but this commercial tie-up is seeking different customers in different markets.

When it comes to the C 130J I note that the Poms are starting to get rid of theirs and will likely have none if or when we would get ours and the Assies would probably be replacing theirs within 10 years of us getting any. IMO interoperability is more about procedures and personnel training levels than the platform itself and we can see this in the NZDF small arms selection, just because it is different from the ADF selection does not reduce our ability to operate with the ADF . I would also point out that the military is in general in the business of taking managed risks by its very nature and would want what is going to perform to the highest level. Note the RAN selection of the T26 which 90% of respondents said was too risky.

 

[John Fedup]

Australia and the U.K. both have C-17 fleets for strategic lift along with their tactical Hercules lifters. The A400M sort of has a dual role which is why the U.K. can consider doing away with its Hercules fleet and should it finally prove itself it may well displace the C-130J for nations that can justify the extra money. The KC390 might further erode the Hercules market share. NZ must decide if the A400M is viable enough when their Hercules fleet requires replacement.

 

[swerve]

When it comes to the C 130J I note that the Poms are starting to get rid of theirs and will likely have none if or when we would get ours ...

We're getting rid of the RAF's10 C-130J C5 (the basic version). I think most, maybe all, have already been retired, & at least five have been sold, to Bahrain, Bangladesh & the Blue Angels.

BUT - the 14 C-130J-30 (C4 to the RAF) are getting a life extension which is reported will take them into the 2030s.

 

[RegR]

Like the C-130 the Huey is still deemed relevant even in the context of the worlds most advanced and capable military force. And the simple workhorse that the Huey is can be air deployed by the C-130J. The UH-1Y is still in production which says the USMC will likely be flying them well into the future.

Yes which is why I stated they are still around in substantial numbers even now, the point I'm making is that despite this fact we opted to upgrade to NH90s rather than just buy new huey types even though it would have been infinately easier to aqquire, intergrate and operate in fact a comparably seemless transition BUT we instead took the gamble and went with the option that offered us greater lift, range, performance and upgrade paths and covered the wider gambit of current and future tasks knowing full well that we need to not only upgrade the platform but also the capability due to modern day requirements.

I can see similarities in requirement in the C130 project in that do we really want/need another "UH1H" regardless of if it is new build or still in use around the world in numbers? The thing with those operators is that they tend to have multiple types of helos and transport AC giving them options to tailor specific assets to specific tasks. We do not generally get the luxury of multiple types within these groups and usually 1 shoe fits all so we have to compromise on the most useful shoe to cover the most general tasks.

Whilst I love the hercules to bits thinking forward is it an upgrade or a replacement? I would say yes to both but it's the level of that is the issue.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

So the long talked about purchase of the P8 is just a few days away. This is great news for those in uniform and for the populace of your country whether most realize it or not.

With only four P8 being purchased would the purchase of a 737, as a BBJ or combi, make sense to provide a training option for crews? I remember this being discussed awhile ago.

Its been stated that a simulator is not part of the buy. Did OZ buy a simulator with their P8 purchase? If so, is there an opportunity to buy into that program given the proximity compared with going to Florida?

As to the recent comments regarding the C130J becoming obsolete I find that to be very unlikely given the numbers being acquired by the US and NATO countries, 17 with the RCAF in the last number of years.

If the C130J is chosen is there any likelihood that some may be armed such as the USMC Harvest Hawk KC130J?

Finally can a KC130J refuel a P8?

 

[Gibbo]

The four leased KA-350's will generate 2800 hours in training outputs which are more integrated than before with respect to both aircrew and pilots respective on land based sims and when airborne.

I agree with the general view stated by other that though the KA-350 will conduct a portion of air surveillance both directed and as an outcome of tailored flight training activities, there presents a golden opportunity through the acquisition of two further aircraft to build more "resilience" in maritime ISR and SAR. They would enable a further dedicated 1400 annual hours of tasking to be achieved from 42 Sqd. It really is low cost low hanging fruit to get a bona fide capability improvement.

A 6-9 person UNI-PAC (U) SAR Liferaft (packed they're about the size of a standard punching bag) can be manually deployed from the LH rear door of a KA-350.

Agree 42 Sqn leasing a couple more specifically for maritime ISR & SAR would be a step in the right direction. In fact there would be considerable merit in 5 Sqn operating their own 2-3 x KA350 (or the like) once they are bedded in at Ohakea in the post-P3 world. That would allow them to be dedicated to 5 Sqn taskings and importantly allow 5 Sqn to manage the training for step-up into the P8.

We are led to believe a P8 purchase won't stretch to a simulator, which is short-sighted but not unexpected in my book, although I expect they'll purchase time in those of allies - do the ADF have one? However this also arguably gives the RNZAF some leverage in that they can go cap-in-hand and point out that without a simulator they need access to a cheaper type for P8 'back office' training which would also allow 5 Sqn to meet some of their lower-end taskings. 42 Sqn would then loose that role and may have to drop back to say 3 KA350 but the overall picture would be a net gain.

In regards to the KA350 currently coming into service, they are effectively stock standard B350i that will not have mods to allow for cargo door or any under-wing 'dispensers'. The B350i has an outward opening 1 piece door with integrated steps that drops down as one complete unit... I couldn't imagine it is able to be opened in-flight as it would be way out into the slipstream... so will they in fact be able to dispense anything!?!

 

[Redlands18]

So the long talked about purchase of the P8 is just a few days away. This is great news for those in uniform and for the populace of your country whether most realize it or not.

With only four P8 being purchased would the purchase of a 737, as a BBJ or combi, make sense to provide a training option for crews? I remember this being discussed awhile ago.

Its been stated that a simulator is not part of the buy. Did OZ buy a simulator with their P8 purchase? If so, is there an opportunity to buy into that program given the proximity compared with going to Florida?

As to the recent comments regarding the C130J becoming obsolete I find that to be very unlikely given the numbers being acquired by the US and NATO countries, 17 with the RCAF in the last number of years.

If the C130J is chosen is there any likelihood that some may be armed such as the USMC Harvest Hawk KC130J?

Finally can a KC130J refuel a P8?

To your last 2 points, extremely unlikely and incompatable.

 

[Gibbo]

So the long talked about purchase of the P8 is just a few days away. This is great news for those in uniform and for the populace of your country whether most realize it or not.

With only four P8 being purchased would the purchase of a 737, as a BBJ or combi, make sense to provide a training option for crews? I remember this being discussed awhile ago.

Its been stated that a simulator is not part of the buy. Did OZ buy a simulator with their P8 purchase? If so, is there an opportunity to buy into that program given the proximity compared with going to Florida?

As to the recent comments regarding the C130J becoming obsolete I find that to be very unlikely given the numbers being acquired by the US and NATO countries, 17 with the RCAF in the last number of years.

If the C130J is chosen is there any likelihood that some may be armed such as the USMC Harvest Hawk KC130J?

Finally can a KC130J refuel a P8?

A B737 purchase for training has merit of sorts, but even a stock standard B737 is a plane load of $dosh$ so unless an operational role is also found (ie: B757 replacement) then there's no way it would even be considered. Only the larger, better resourced air forces get the luxury of such outlay for training types. I'm sure the RNZAF will get to 'purchase' time in someone elses. Malaysia uses (buys?) time in the RNZAF's AW109 sim.

...and I personally don't believe a B737 is a suitable B757 replacement.

 

[Redlands18]

Agree 42 Sqn leasing a couple more specifically for maritime ISR & SAR would be a step in the right direction. In fact there would be considerable merit in 5 Sqn operating their own 2-3 x KA350 (or the like) once they are bedded in at Ohakea in the post-P3 world. That would allow them to be dedicated to 5 Sqn taskings and importantly allow 5 Sqn to manage the training for step-up into the P8.

We are led to believe a P8 purchase won't stretch to a simulator, which is short-sighted but not unexpected in my book, although I expect they'll purchase time in those of allies - do the ADF have one? However this also arguably gives the RNZAF some leverage in that they can go cap-in-hand and point out that without a simulator they need access to a cheaper type for P8 'back office' training which would also allow 5 Sqn to meet some of their lower-end taskings. 42 Sqn would then loose that role and may have to drop back to say 3 KA350 but the overall picture would be a net gain.

In regards to the KA350 currently coming into service, they are effectively stock standard B350i that will not have mods to allow for cargo door or any under-wing 'dispensers'. The B350i has an outward opening 1 piece door with integrated steps that drops down as one complete unit... I couldn't imagine it is able to be opened in-flight as it would be way out into the slipstream... so will they in fact be able to dispense anything!?!

Don't forget the RAAF is still nowhere near FOC yet, so trg opportunities for the RNZAF may be limited as they are in the middle of converting from the P-3 to the P-8. Not saying they won't give up spots.

 

[RegR]

So the long talked about purchase of the P8 is just a few days away. This is great news for those in uniform and for the populace of your country whether most realize it or not.

With only four P8 being purchased would the purchase of a 737, as a BBJ or combi, make sense to provide a training option for crews? I remember this being discussed awhile ago.

Its been stated that a simulator is not part of the buy. Did OZ buy a simulator with their P8 purchase? If so, is there an opportunity to buy into that program given the proximity compared with going to Florida?

As to the recent comments regarding the C130J becoming obsolete I find that to be very unlikely given the numbers being acquired by the US and NATO countries, 17 with the RCAF in the last number of years.

If the C130J is chosen is there any likelihood that some may be armed such as the USMC Harvest Hawk KC130J?

Finally can a KC130J refuel a P8?

I too find the lack of a sim as part of the purchase alittle bit of a step backwards, hopefully they are just trying to get the ball across the tryline before they go for the conversion and pick one up at a later date. With RNZAF bringing the AWO course back from across the ditch you would assume the benefits of having this type of training done in country organically was taken into account.

Pretty sure the C130s are drougue and P8s are boom so not currently compatable so will need to use the RAAF A330s and the like for extended range.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Thanks all.

Great discussion.

Cant wait for the announcement to be made. Long overdue.

 

[MrConservative]

Honestly I do not know where this speculation that no OFT's, WTT's and AeDTEs will be bought.

CAE may not be listed directly but the Canadian Commercial Corporation, a Canadian Govt owned enterprise set up to organise Canadian made military equipment to foreign governments (amongst other things) is part of DSCA response for a NZ FMS request. One of the numerous follow on contracts that a complex and long term buy such as the P-8A has.

 

[oldsig127]

We are led to believe a P8 purchase won't stretch to a simulator, which is short-sighted but not unexpected in my book, although I expect they'll purchase time in those of allies - do the ADF have one?

CAE to provide two P-8A simulators for RAAF - Australian Defence Magazine

This probably answers that question and weakens the argument by RNZAF to get a simulator themselves, assuming cooperation by the RAAF

oldsig

 

[MrConservative]

CAE to provide two P-8A simulators for RAAF - Australian Defence Magazine

This probably answers that question and weakens the argument by RNZAF to get a simulator themselves, assuming cooperation by the RAAF

oldsig

Two simulators to train and sustain crews for up to 19 aircraft from two countries? I don't think so. I suggest the opposite is the actual case with the proposed FMS procurement from the NZG to fund the production of the aircraft, trainers and associated support equipment and recent comments by the minister that additional base infrastructure will be spent. A $2 Billion project and just 1-2% of that cost is for a OFT, WTT and AeDTE against the fiscal fallacy and disruption of flying and housing substantial chunks of 5 Sqd personnel back and forth to South Australia to wait in a queue to get scare RAAF sim time.