Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) update

[STURM]

For me reading from an article on this matter from one of the leading newspaper in Malaysia (with strong ties to Governing party), means this has to be some merit.

Ananda, just out of curiosity did you find it easy to understand the article which was written - the style of writing is different as well as some words. I know I have great trouble reading and fully understanding BI . Also, have you ever been to Malaysia?

Personally, I will be very surprised if DCNS gets the contract after being awarded the Scorpene contract. Officially, its all about the price and who can offer the best in offsets and transfers of technology but Malaysia has a tradition of not putting all its eggs in one basket.

 

[Ananda]

Ananda, just out of curiosity did you find it easy to understand the article which was written - the style of writing is different as well as some words. I know I have great trouble reading and fully understanding BI . Also, have you ever been to Malaysia?

Personally, I will be very surprised if DCNS gets the contract after being awarded the Scorpene contract. Officially, its all about the price and who can offer the best in offsets and transfers of technology but Malaysia has a tradition of not putting all its eggs in one basket.

I've been in Malaysia several times for Business, that's why I heard from friends in Malaysia which Media got connection with ruling party, and Utusan belong to one of them.

I my self need to read several times before understand the content reasonably. Bahasa Indonesia and Malays maybe come from same roots, but the style somewhat evolved differently.

In my understanding although the article still talked on DCNS design as possible contender, but seems already discounted Meko from the race. That's why it's bit surprising for me the article talked much on Damen in the way as their Design already a leading contender, in which seldom mentioned on the race before.

Anyway talking about Utusan article, do you got more information about Norwegian NSM deal ? http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/inf...san_Malaysia&sec=Polis_&_Tentera&pg=te_02.htm

With Otomat and Exocet already in the inventory, why leaning to NSM ? I know it's supposedly with longer range and newer design can (in paper) produce more capability than Exocet. But NSM considered to be lighter weight (including the warhead) ? Or I made wrong assumption ?

 

[ma5k3r]

Rmn

I understand that your kedah class opv is under armed.looking at the scenarios that are changing rapidly,kedah class need extensive upgrades for her armaments.I am more than surprised that she doesnt have anti air, anti missile system.maybe due to budget restraint,but that is no excuse.RMN should be wise to arm kedah class with whatever extra weapons she can buy out there..nsm plus essm is a good start.I hope u have a credible anti submarine package as well.with shipborne helicopter available,it may not be enough since submarines nowdays has means to shoot down helicopters as well.
I hope to see RMN equip her ships with ship to surface missiles as well plus uav and usv to give her ships some cutting edge against any adverseries.
And of course the ability to shoot ABM missiles too...as currently malaysia airspace has too many holes for enemy missiles to exploit....

 

[STURM]

I've been in Malaysia several times for Business, that's why I heard from friends in Malaysia which Media got connection with ruling party, and Utusan belong to one of them.

I my self need to read several times before understand the content reasonably. Bahasa Indonesia and Malays maybe come from same roots, but the style somewhat evolved differently.

If you're ever here again, it would be nice to meet up for a chat.

I think its easier for you to understand BM than for the average Malaysian to understand BI. I can speak and understand it but I can't read it, a lot of words are just totally different. I was in lombok some years ago, and funny enough the BI spoken there was very similar to BM!

Anyway talking about Utusan article, do you got more information about Norwegian NSM deal ? Utusan Malaysia Online - Polis & Tentera

With Otomat and Exocet already in the inventory, why leaning to NSM ? I know it's supposedly with longer range and newer design can (in paper) produce more capability than Exocet. But NSM considered to be lighter weight (including the warhead) ? Or I made wrong assumption ?

I haven't heard anything about the NSM being offered. The RMN loves its Exocets . It has been an Exocet operator since the late 1970's. The only reason it has the Otomats was because the Laksamana class came with it. In the unlikely event that something other than the Exocet is selected it will be due to political interference. Then again I could be wrong and maybe the RMN really wants the NSM.

RMN should be wise to arm kedah class with whatever extra weapons she can buy out there.

It's not a question of the RMN not wanting to fully arm the Kedah class but solely a question of funding.

..nsm plus essm is a good start.....

The Kedah class is wired for RAM and the Exocet

And of course the ability to shoot ABM missiles too...as currently malaysia airspace has too many holes for enemy missiles to exploit....

I was under the impression that many countries were also vulnerable to enemy missiles and not just Malaysia .

 

[ma5k3r]

I haven't heard anything about the NSM being offered. The RMN loves its Exocets . It has been an Exocet operator since the late 1970's. The only reason it has the Otomats was because the Laksamana class came with it. In the unlikely event that something other than the Exocet is selected it will be due to political interference. Then again I could be wrong and maybe the RMN really wants the NSM
It's not a question of the RMN not wanting to fully arm the Kedah class but solely a question of funding.

Well Najib was former Defence Minister so I guess he is pro Military on this one.



The Kedah class is wired for RAM and the Exocet

Nice but is that sufficient to face changing threat scenarios.Is she wired for Anti Sub
operations as well...I meant hull sonar plus torpedoes launched tubes and not from Super Lynx


I was under the impression that many countries were also vulnerable to enemy missiles and not just Malaysia

Well trust me Malaysia has many gaps need closing....

 

[STURM]

Well trust me Malaysia has many gaps need closing....

I'm aware that due to the terrain and insufficient number of radars there are gaps in the the air coverage. Very few countries have full coverage of their airspace.

 

[ma5k3r]

I'm aware that due to the terrain and insufficient number of radars there are gaps in the the air coverage. Very few countries have full coverage of their airspace.

Well Malaysia also has insufficient long range SAMs, and A/Cs to defend her airspace.Just wondering what is the 10th Malaysia Plan is?
Remember Spartly Islands would be another flashpoint if not managed properly
with what PLAN aggressive expansion
Would like to see RMN for once be able and ready should these threats materialised....hopefully not to soon...

 

[STURM]

Well Malaysia also has insufficient long range SAMs, and A/Cs to defend her airspace.Just wondering what is the 10th Malaysia Plan is?

Stuff to be funded under the 10th MP are 6 LCSs, 257 AV8s and at least 18 MRCA's. There is a requirement for medium range SAMs but whether this will be funded under the 10th MP remains to be seen.

Would like to see RMN for once be able and ready should these threats materialised....hopefully not to soon...

The RMN's first priority is to have enough assets to face a number of peacetime threats the country currently faces and to have the ability to deal with a threats posed by its immediate neighbours. Even if the Malaysian defence budget were to be increased teb fold it would not make a difference in the unlikely event that China, sometime in thefuture decides to take the Spratleys by force.

 

[ma5k3r]

Stuff to be funded under the 10th MP are 6 LCSs, 257 AV8s and at least 18 MRCA's. There is a requirement for medium range SAMs but whether this will be funded under the 10th MP remains to be seen.



The RMN's first priority is to have enough assets to face a number of peacetime threats the country currently faces and to have the ability to deal with a threats posed by its immediate neighbours. Even if the Malaysian defence budget were to be increased teb fold it would not make a difference in the unlikely event that China, sometime in thefuture decides to take the Spratleys by force.

6 LCS u mentioned, is that the 2nd gen NGVP,advance class that will incorporate ESSM and NSM missiles.if so what else are in the pipeline.I understand that since formation of MMEA,lot of RMN assests were transferred to latter to help with the formation.That is a good call by your government, let RMN handle external threat while MMEA handle internal threats.
With the destruction of one your LST due to fire, what about her replacement,
I can see that RMAF will be getting 4 A400Ms around 2016.what about her naval equivalent.there were rumours about dokdo class being mentioned...or smaller version..surely for overseas or operations beyond her shores require logistic support which sadly is severly lacking..interesting to see that developments ....

Peacetime threats like natural disaster recovery? or protecting Malaysia Economic Zones...How are the submarines operating right now...I am interested to see RMN's approach in handling anti sub warfare...
Cheers

 

[STURM]

6 LCS u mentioned, is that the 2nd gen NGVP,advance class that will incorporate ESSM and NSM missiles.

The follow on class for to the Kedah class has been designated the Littoral Combat Ship [I have no idea why!]. The RMN managed to get the government to approve funding to fully fit out the LCS with SAMs and SSMs. The priority now for the RMN is to start the ball rolling with the LCS programme and then seek approval to equip the Kedah class with missiles.

? or protecting Malaysia Economic Zones...

Protecting the EEZ, ensuring access to E. Malaysia is not disrupted, keeping an eye on foreign naval activity in the South China Sea, ensuring the Straits of Melaka are free from piracy and terrorist activity, guarding the country's offshore oil and gas assets, etc, the list is long.

The good news is that some of these roles are also supported by the MMEA. Other roles - fisheries protection, anti-smuggling, etc, - have been completely taken over by the MMEA. Routine patroling and SAR tasking are now also undertaken by the MMEAs 2 Bombardiers, as well as Dauphins and AW139s. The bad news is that the MMEA requires a huge investment to get new ships and additional aircraft.

How are the submarines operating right now...I am interested to see RMN's approach in handling anti sub warfare...
Cheers

The 2 subs just participated in a fleet exercise in the South China Sea, which was their 2nd exercise. The first firing of an SM40 was done a few months ago.
Firing trials of the Blackshark was done in France, not sue if they have also been done in local waters.

I have no idea what approach the RMN will take with ASW but what is for certain is that having subs will go a long way in improving its ASW skills. There are 6 ships fitted with triple torps tubes and 2 more will be fitted with tubes as part of a SLEP [these 2 ships were equipped with Bofors 375mm rockets for ASW]. As the Super Lynxs do not have a dipping sonar, target coordinates have to be provided by hull sonars fitted on ships. The RMN has stated that it has a requirement for 6 additional helicopters.

 

[ma5k3r]

The follow on class for to the Kedah class has been designated the Littoral Combat Ship [I have no idea why!].

Interestingly when will the new ships design revealed.I heard its 3 way tie now with dcns gowind, sigma and .....cant remember the third one
What about the OPV project that was supposed to be the backbone of RMN fleet.
Are they stopping at 6 and not the full projected 24 ships which was what the top bras projected.

As the Super Lynxs do not have a dipping sonar, target coordinates have to be provided by hull sonars fitted on ships. The RMN has stated that it has a requirement for 6 additional helicopters.

Would it not be cheaper to just buy the sonar kit or from what I read elsewhere they are unhappy with the operational range? Sidenote, when will we see EC725 in RMAF colours? Interesting that malaysia keep buying a/cs in low numbers and with varieties.I am just wondering why ?

 

[STURM]

Interestingly when will the new ships design revealed.I heard its 3 way tie now with dcns gowind, sigma and .....cant remember the third one
What about the OPV project that was supposed to be the backbone of RMN fleet.
Are they stopping at 6 and not the full projected 24 ships which was what the top bras projected.

A contract will probably be signed at this year's LIMA exhibition. The OPV project became the New Generation Patrol Programme - the Kedah class - and has now envolved into the LCS programme. The original intention when first announced in the 1990's was for 27 ships built over a 16 year period..

Would it not be cheaper to just buy the sonar kit or from what I read elsewhere they are unhappy with the operational range? Sidenote, when will we see EC725 in RMAF colours? Interesting that malaysia keep buying a/cs in low numbers and with varieties.I am just wondering why ?

It would be possible to retrofit a dipping sonar to the 6 Super Lynxs but the intention is to get additional helicopters as the 6 Super Lynxs and 6 Fennecs are insufficient to meet the RMNs operational needs. The RMN is not ''unhappy'' with the range of the Super Lynx as it knew fully well what its range was before ordering it [the main competitor to the Super Lynx was the Seasprite]. The RMN's frigates are are in the 1,500 to 2,000 tonne range, a larger helicopter with longer range like the Seahawk or Merlin will not fit in the hangars of these frigates.

The first Cougar is expected to be delivered in 2013.

The size of the budget means that any large buy of aircraft is not feasible. Another factor limiting the number of jets that can be bought is the number of fast jets pilots available and the number of LIFT aircraft to support training cycles. Another reason why the RMAF traditionaly has not operated large numbers of fighters is because for several decades its main roles were supporting the army's counter insurgency efforts and assisting the government's nation building activities.

 

[ma5k3r]

A contract will probably be signed at this year's LIMA exhibition. The OPV project became the New Generation Patrol Programme - the Kedah class - and has now envolved into the LCS programme. The original intention when first announced in the 1990's was for 27 ships built over a 16 year period.

so it is safe to say that kedah class strength will be 27 ships or more or less ...
So what happen to the first 6 that is currently operational....
In your own personal opinion, what are the urgent areas RMN need addressing ?

The RMN's frigates are are in the 1,500 to 2,000 tonne range, a larger helicopter with longer range like the Seahawk or Merlin will not fit in the hangars of these frigates

But I read somewhere that RMN do not base her helos on ships...they are mostly landa based..maybe the top brass might change that with different threat scenarios..
like PLAN aggressive submarine expansion ...

What about RMN Indraputra replacement ? Will that be announced at LIMA 2011 also? I hope I got the name right....she was an LST destroyed by fire at naval base recently...

Another reason why the RMAF traditionaly has not operated large numbers of fighters is because for several decades its main roles were supporting the army's counter insurgency efforts and assisting the government's nation building activities.

I thought COIN operations ceased when the communist surrender..What with MRCA?
Wasn't MIG 29 bought for that purpose and now RMAF is looking at another platform? No interest in UAV yet? Personally Malaysia should be looking at UAV as
an interim measure while waiting for MPA aircraft budget, well any thoughts ?
Malaysia should also look to building her military industrial base so that one day we can see Malaysia made military assests...

 

[STURM]

so it is safe to say that kedah class strength will be 27 ships or more or less ... So what happen to the first 6 that is currently operational....
In your own personal opinion, what are the urgent areas RMN need addressing ?

The number of Kedah class will definitely remain at 6. The follow on to the Kedah class is the LCS and whether or not the next Malaysia Plan will include funding for an additional 6 hulls remains to be seen. The Kedah class are all in service and have participated in a number of local execises as well as Ex-Milan [hosted by India], Ex-Aman [hosted by Pakistan] and the annual CARAT execises done with the USN.

IMO the RMN urgently need more assets to patrol its waters and off course UAVs would have a crucial role to play, not to replace but to supplement existing capabilities. Additional helicopters are also needed as the 12 are barely sufficient.

But I read somewhere that RMN do not base her helos on ships...they are mostly landa based..maybe the top brass might change that with different threat scenarios.. like PLAN aggressive submarine expansion ...

Irrespective of whether or not the helicopters are ship or land based, they are deployed often on ships when needed, like during the deployments to the Gulf of Aden in the past and on exercises and patrols and there is no hangar that can accomadate anything larger than a Super Lynx sized helicopter. During the first Aden deployment an S-61A Nuri was deployed from the Inderapura
and there is a Fennec currently on board the naval auxillery ship deployed in the Gulf of Aden. There is a permanent detachment of a number of Fennecs at the Sepanggar base.

What about RMN Indraputra replacement ? Will that be announced at LIMA 2011 also? I hope I got the name right....she was an LST destroyed by fire at naval base recently...

The RMN lift/amphibious assets are limited to the 2 Indera Sakti class and 2 Fast Troop Vessels. There are simply insufficient funds to pay for for the LCS, AV8, MRCAs AND a replacement for the Inderapura under the 10th Malaysia Plan. If there is really an urgent need to get an Inderapura replacement in the near future there is always the possibility that extra funds could be allocated like they were to fund the 4 Laksamana class corvettes from Italy in the late 1990's.

I thought COIN operations ceased when the communist surrender..What with MRCA? Wasn't MIG 29 bought for that purpose and now RMAF is looking at another platform? No interest in UAV yet? Personally Malaysia should be looking at UAV as an interim measure while waiting for MPA aircraft budget, well any thoughts ? Malaysia should also look to building her military industrial base so that one day we can see Malaysia made military assests...

COIN ops did cease after the signing of the peace agreement with the CPM and NKCP in 1989, I was merely pointing out why the reason the RMAF was 'heavy' on helicopters and transports but 'light' on fighters - for many years air defence was also provided by RAAF Mirage 111s at Butterworth. The purchase of Fulcrums, Hawks and Hornets from 1990 to 1994 were part of a modernisation plan to better enable to the RMAF to deal with external threats. There were plans to buy additional F-5Es in the 1980s and later F-20 Tigersharks under the PERISTA plan, but these were canceled due to a lack of funds and the need to address other priorities. Similarly, there were plans to get FA-18Cs to supplement the 8 D's but plans were canceled due to the 1997 Economic Crisis.

What with MRCA?Wasn't MIG 29 bought for that purpose and now RMAF is looking at another platform? No interest in UAV yet?

Due to high operating costs and the need to overhaul the engines a decision was made to replace the Fulcrums with an MRCA. The Super Hornet which is the RMAFs favourite choice would be the ideal replacement is beleived to stiil be the leading contender.

There is a short range locally made UAV , the Aludra, in service which provides the MAF with a 1980's UAV capability. For a local company to develop anything more capable will require a foreign partner and substantial funds from the government. The decision is political but I would rather buy a UAV 'off the shelf'' rather than go through the long, painful, costly and complex process of locally producing one.

 

[swerve]

The RMN lift/amphibious assets are limited to the 2 Indera Sakti class and 2 Fast Troop Vessels. There are simply insufficient funds to pay for for the LCS, AV8, MRCAs AND a replacement for the Inderapura under the 10th Malaysia Plan. If there is really an urgent need to get an Inderapura replacement in the near future there is always the possibility that extra funds could be allocated like they were to fund the 4 Laksamana class corvettes from Italy in the late 1990's.

The supply of secondhand amphibious/transport vessels in good condition is currently rather good. France is seeking to sell Foudre, & Italy wants to dispose of the Santi LPDs over the next few years, to help finance replacements. These ships are newer & in better condition than the ex-USN amphibs which were the mainstay of the secondhand market for many years.

New Korean-designed LPDs are also available at very good prices nowadays - see the Indonesian Makasar class.

Malaysia should be able to replace Inderapura relatively cheaply.

 

[ma5k3r]

The supply of secondhand amphibious/transport vessels in good condition is currently rather good. France is seeking to sell Foudre, & Italy wants to dispose of the Santi LPDs over the next few years, to help finance replacements. These ships are newer & in better condition than the ex-USN amphibs which were the mainstay of the secondhand market for many years.

I could not find any Santi LPD from Italian Navy.Foudre looks interesting.Has RMN talked to UK since Royal Navy has to discard lots of ships due to their budgetary cuts.

 

[STURM]

Had a replacement for the Inderapura been included in the 10th Malaysia Plan, the design chosen would most probably have been a scaled down version of the Dokdo built in a Malaysian owned shipyard in South Korea. I'm not sure if the RMN has been offered or is looking at used or soon to be retired LSTs/LPDs.

Though it would make economic sense for the RMN to get a used vessel that is in good condition, the question at this juncture is whether the RMN is keen on a used vessel, even one that still has lots of years left and in good condition. Apart from operating costs, the manning levels of such vessels will also be a concern for the RMN.

 

[swerve]

I could not find any Santi LPD from Italian Navy.Foudre looks interesting.Has RMN talked to UK since Royal Navy has to discard lots of ships due to their budgetary cuts.

"Santi" is Italian for "Saints", & refers to the three small LPDs, San Marco, San Giorgio, & San Giusto (St. Mark, St. George, & St. Just), which are scheduled to be replaced by two much larger ships.

The UK has already sold the only amphibious ship to be retired early due to the cuts. Australia has bought Largs Bay..

Though it would make economic sense for the RMN to get a used vessel that is in good condition, the question at this juncture is whether the RMN is keen on a used vessel, even one that still has lots of years left and in good condition. Apart from operating costs, the manning levels of such vessels will also be a concern for the RMN.

The 1980s & 1990s European ships don't have the same manning levels as the 1960s & 1970s US LSTs & LPDs formerly on the secondhand market. The Santi have a complement of 163, & apparently that can be reduced, Foudre has a crew of 160. The ex-US Newport class (smaller than Foudre, same size as the Santi) has a crew of 224. The ex-US Austin class (a bit larger than Foudre) has a crew of over 400.

 

[OPSSG]

Navy patrol ship almost sank, leak in engine room

KUALA LUMPUR: A Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) patrol ship, KD Pari, almost sank when its main engine room sprang a leak after one of its shafts came off. The incident was said to have occurred at 2.53pm on Thursday when the “Fast Attack Craft” had just left Pulau Layang-Layang to patrol the Gugusan Semarang Peninjau in Sabah waters.

All nine officers and 27 other crew members of the ship, however, were safe.

Public Relations Officer of the RMN Headquarters, Lt Cdr Masliza Maaris, said in a statement here today that swift action by the Commanding Officer and the crew however succeeded in bringing the vessel closer to the Pulau Layang-Layang jetty. "After getting close to the jetty, the vessel half sank as it took in too much water despite using several mobile pumps to pump out the water," she said.

Mazliza said, however, with the help of RMN divers, KD Pari was set afloat again using lifting bags. She said further investigation would be carried out to determine the actual cause of the incident. KD Pari, which was commissioned on March 23, 1977, has a speed of 32 knots. - Bernama

Fairly serious incident involving KD Pari, which I believe is a Jerong class fast attack craft. Hoping to use this thread to keep track of the results of the investigation.

 

[STURM]

Fairly serious incident involving KD Pari, which I believe is a Jerong class fast attack craft. Hoping to use this thread to keep track of the results of the investigation.

Two main problems here are the age of the 6 Jerong class and the fact that they are heavily overtasked. The entry into service of the 6 Kedah class and over the coming years the 6 LCS's, are intended to replace FACs like the Jerong. Hopefully, whether the the shaft came off because of old age or for other reasons, will be made known.

According to a report, the reason the FAC put to sea from Layang-Layang was to invesitigate and confront the presence of a nearby PLAN frigate.